bborchar

Yeah, I have several questions from this episode, and it's bugging me that I can't come up with answers to all of them But Sherlock seems to have used a code with the Bach motif, and then Moriarty realizes that he does - so if Sherlock uses that motif, then that's why i'm thinking there was a code after all.

Even if that is true (that he didn't want to go back to jail), why does he say "I see, you're not ordinary, you're me" after being convinced that Sherlock was simply ordinary? Just threatening to put him in prison or torture him wouldn't make Moriarty change his mind...it would in fact reinforce the idea that Sherlock was ordinary. No, I think we're missing a code that Sherlock is giving to Moriarty, but I just don't know what it is.

Maybe, but Moriarty also says "You can have me arrested, you can torture me, but nothing is going to stop your friends from dying, unless..." So it seems to me that Moriarty is on a suicide mission no matter what- he just wants to take Sherlock down with him. But somehow, Sherlock has gotten the upperhand and has spoiled the game for Moriarty, leaving Moriarty no choice BUT to kill himself first (I honestly think that Moriarty would have done it anyway after Sherlock had jumped out of despair that no one would ever be his equal). Something that Sherlock says is the key to Moriarty understanding that Sherlock HAS the upper hand on him...and he doesn't realize it until Sherlock says the angel line. I only point out "second" because he put so much emphasis on it, but we see the angel motif running throughout the episode. Moriarty refers to him as being on the side of the angels and we see the IOU painted in angel wings with graffiti outside of their flat. I've seen theories about a sniper watching Sherlock- but there's no basis for it and no real evidence. But Moriarty HAS left Sherlock the clues to figure something out, because he likes to play games and leave riddles. And I thinking that "something" might be the recall code. But again, it's just a guess.

For me, the real mystery left is why Moriarty suddenly decided he had to kill himself. Sherlock somehow forces his hand, and it makes me wonder if we're looking at it all wrong. What if IOU had something to do with Moriarty's plan for Sherlock's friends (some sort of code) and what if Sherlock's line "I may be on the side of the angels, but don't think for one second that I am one". What if there is a code in that? Sherlock says that line in a very odd way, emphasizing "second". Sherlock uses the Bach Motif when he sing-songs "If I've got you"- which is used in musical cryptograms. What if Moriarty realizes that Sherlock has broken his recall code- and is happy that Sherlock "got it", and then he decides to off himself in order to win the game? There's a lot of ifs in this, but I'm trying to get other people's ideas on this because it's probably the least explainable thing that happened. Any thoughts?

Everything I have said so far I have evidence or a reason for. Nothing I said is without a reason. I stated my reasons why it is him- you disagree, and that's fine. I said he's up there because we see him up there, on the ledge, talking. If you want to tell me where I need to look to see how Sherlock has changed places and now it is a dummy up there, I will gladly look. But I don't see how we can make that assumption based on the sole fact that it's hard to see him move (even though he clearly raises his arm at one point). Sherlock CAN survive that fall as long as someone has put something for him to land on. Why needlessly overcomplicate something that is already dangerous and requires perfect timing. How could they pull it out of the way? Simple- the all run back toward the garage- John isn't looking that way at all, he's looking at the "corpse" on the sidewalk. From what I've read, those airbags inflate and deflate pretty quickly. It works. It requires perfect timing, but so does every magic trick. I also can't make the determination about what is a mistake, because we don't have all the answers. Sherlock has a lot to dissect- only the writers themselves will ever get every single little in joke. But at the end of the day it's just a show, put on for entertainment, and it seems to me that that do an incredible amount of research for something most people won't remember or really pay attention to in the end. No, I didn't like the blind banker, either, because of inconsistencies in the story (and the incredibly corny ending)... But the thing that immediately struck me was that Sherlock was unable to recognize the old style Chinese numbers- even though he has a print with Chinese characters on it hanging above his bed. So no, not every one is a gem, but it's still fun to watch. And no, I'm not a teenage boy

Well, we could have that shot if they'd wanted to give it to us, we can see the roof and top two floors. We could have watched from John's POV as Sherlock fell off, and descended at least a floor or two and then cut in to close shots of him. : I guess I don't understand what you mean. Do you think they toss this body down while the fall is going on and then show it to us at the end? I agree entirely. Yet, it does. So, we have a choice and mine is a Mofftiss Error. Because John and Moriarty's spotters watch the body fall, also. Isn't John going to think back in a day or so and go... wait.... what? Why would this be carefully planned to fool John and then screw up the position of the body? I'm just saying I have personally discarded it as having any meaning. Kind of like how you discarded the different locations as having any. Right, as I mentioned in my blog post. I have a bunch of shots of that pan, overlapping to where they end. It's a seamless continuous pan. Sherlock is on a roof, and he can see John and talk to him. But that pan doesn't get us to the location of the figure John sees silhouetted on the ledge. Not in the real world. We never in that entire conversation ever see Sherlock looking down at John with both of them in the shot again. John speaks looking up at the figure. The one that never moves. Sherlock speaks looking down at John, but we don't ever see John again in those shots. John is talking to dead guy, Sherlock is talking to John. (BTW - this got kind of confusing - if there was an issue you posted and I didn't respond to, please repost so I'll see it if you want me to.) 1. The only way Benedict Cumberbatch can "fall" from the roof is with a crane. From John's POV, that would leave a very large crane in the picture. Hence the shots that we see of him falling. 2. I don't think the "body" has to hit the pavement at that moment at all. I think it is taken slightly out of sequence just to make it look that way. It's a trick that is often used in movies to throw people off. 3. The way Sherlock falls is the textbook way for slowing down your descent (hence we know that he is really falling). Moving his arms and legs was just to assure his audience that he was, indeed, the real Sherlock Holmes and not a fake. He is lying the way he does so that Watson is assure to only grab the one wrist that is laying out nearest him. I also wouldn't past Moffat and Gatiss to stage it this way so that Sherlock fans would see the clue and know something is fishy. But it's not a mistake. 4. If Sherlock starts out talking to John from the rooftop, and John has his eyes laser locked on him ("keep your eyes fixed on me!" remember?), then there would be no opportunity for Sherlock to switch out with a corpse or dummy. Sherlock is performing a magic trick- he needs the audience's full attention on him so that they don't notice what is going on underneath (moving the pad into position, putting the body out on the sidewalk, spilling the blood, getting people into position). Sherlock does move his arm out to keep John from coming in after him. However- he IS standing on a ledge very high up...there's only so much movement one can make without accidentally falling off.

Why would he have? Of course he was with Moriarty on the roof of Saint Bart's But that's a complex building, with two wings and more than one roof area. There are also additions, and those newly-built buildings have their own adjoining roofs. We've seen this in other shots of St. Bart's. As it says in the blog post, Sherlock isn't far away, he's just on the next roof. He glances over his right shoulder toward Moriarty's body, which I imagine he does see. I had an alternative for where Sherlock could be standing on the roof, but Moffat stuck that pan in there from John on the ground to Sherlock on the roof, so there's not much choice. I disagree with this presumption. But I've always found them treating John like a medical moron exceedingly irritating, so in their world you may be right. But in fact, you cannot convince a former Army doctor with combat experience that a person is dead by absence of a radial pulse. When they roll the body, the eyes are open. Respiration is necessary if Sherlock is faking it. No one knows if they will be able to keep Watson from insisting on examining Sherlock more thoroughly, though they have a lot of hands to help. He's killed people. He has bad days. Sherlock can't just hold his breath and he certainly can't control his pupillary reaction. He needs to be dead. If the kid with the stethoscope is actual doctor, he has done everything you can possibly do wrong with a fall victim. He has rolled him, shaken him rolled him some more. However, this show is consistent in presenting us with ludicrously improbable medical situations and expecting everyone to just ramp up their suspension of disbelief. My theory is based on presuming they took real care with this. They don't treat him like a medical moron- far from it...he would known that Sherlock was a goner from that height. Sherlock is a master manipulator and knows John better than he knows anyone, so he knows how to convince John he's dead. John just saw his best friend, basically his brother, jump from a tall building after listening to his last words and being unable to help him. No doctor would be thinking straight or clearly after that- he's in shock. There's a reason many doctors don't operate on their loved ones. Sherlock is counting on John's distress (and indeed, he does everything he can to increase it), and add on top of that a mild concussion, and you have an extremely good reason why John was in shock. Several people are pulling him away from Sherlock when he tries to get to him. They are supposed to do that, that's why they are there. I know you don't have much of an opinion of these writers- but have you seen many other tv shows? This show is one of the best written and best researched tv shows or movies out there. They will occasionally mess something up- but I guarantee you, they did not mess this up. The roof change was necessary because the wider roof did not have a clear area where they could shoot the scene- that's why they moved to the smaller roof. It's not a ruse to throw people off- it's just a necessary evil of filming. Everything they did in the fall scene was carefully edited and shot so that the clues would be there, but without giving it away.

We only see a small shot of the "body" hitting the ground. That could easily be Sherlock laying down quickly, or the guys flopping down the body. That shot of the body hitting the ground doesn't necessarily happen in the time sequence it looks to be- here we have a bit of clever editing. IF they were really going to have a body hit the ground, why not show more than a quick snippet and then nothing else until John makes his way around the corner. There's also no way that a body falling face down and perpendicular to the building could hit in such a way that it would lie in even a slightly parallel position. There's also no way to see the shot of Sherlock falling AND John watching him- they are too far apart. I think it would be disingenous to say that John isn't seeing Sherlock fall because we don't see them in the same shot. We see the camera pan up from John TO Sherlock earlier in the scene, therefore validating that we are indeed seeing Sherlock talking to John from the ledge of the roof.

Well, I think it's pretty easy to infer that he landed on something, even if we don't see the thing itself- but if we saw it, or even got a glimpse of it, that would ruin the whole trick, wouldn't it? The information we need to figure it out is that: a. people are helping him b. Sherlock is the real jumper and wasn't wearing any sort of device c. John (nor the audience) can see what is going on d. Sherlock isn't laying in the same position as he fell e. He's alive at the end Just from those facts alone, we can reasonably assume that he landed on something big enough and soft enough that he could walk away unharmed. I guess it's ticky tacky to argue about what he fell on- only that he did fall on something that could break his fall from that height.

... which is fine, as long as the conjectures are not themselves based on recent (major) filming spoilers. Just use your best judgement. I think there is some evidence, in that Mycroft appears to buy into Moriarty's "computer key code" scam, even though he must have people in his organization who would have immediately seen through it. Furthermore, Mycroft reinforces the "key code" concept in John's mind. I will always hide something if I'm straight up talking about something during filming. As far as the Mycroft bit, I was referring to the blog post where it talked about the people on the ground being Mycroft's people. I was simply mentioning that outside of the key code and talking to John, we have no real "evidence" that Mycroft is helping them. Sherlock may have called Mycroft while we weren't looking- I would not be shocked at all if he did. But it wasn't something captured on film, so we can't make any real connections to him.

The big inflated pad in one photo that I posted was for the stunt double to land on, and the "bouncy castle" post was a joke -- again, the real world intrudes. But that's a mere quibble with your wording. I just wanted to add why I think the inflated pad IS what he landed on. That's fine if you disagree with some of my assumptions because they seem to obvious...I would not be at all surprised to see something completely out of left field when it actually airs. But I'm hoping that it seems obvious because it makes sense- I definitely didn't come up with all of it the first or even 10th time watching it- so I hope it's obvious in a good way

WARNING- this post may contain some spoilers, however, they are used in conjecture. We both agree that John is taking Sherlock's pulse. However, I we differ on the manner of Molly's involvement. Sherlock doesn't need her to make him look dead- he needs her to help organize everything below and then fake the autopsy and death certificate afterwards. Why would he take a drug to stop his heart just to fake out someone that he could fake out easily enough by putting a squash ball in his armpit? It's also too unpredictable- something could go very wrong and he would end up actually dead. No, Sherlock needed Molly to help arrange everything. They could be Mycroft's people- or they could be Sherlock's homeless network, or people that Molly knows. There's really no way to be certain at this point for whom they are working, but there is no evidence that they work for Mycroft. Sherlock and Mycroft even make a point of not contacting each other (that we can see). Sherlock DOES, however, mention his homeless network earlier in the episode - they are "quicker and more lax about taking bribes". I'm not saying that Mycroft isn't involved- I'm just saying that there isn't any evidence that he is involved at this point. John is looking at Sherlock. Why do I say that? Because the figure moves. And we can see Sherlock's back as he falls off of the roof. He also throws his phone down on the roof. If there was someone manipulating a dummy, then how are those shots explainable? He wouldn't fall that way to go down a tree, and no one else is going to fall for him. We also see a midrange shot of him on the ledge looking for John's cab when it pulls in. And also dummies can't flail their arms and legs like that. Why does he lift his arm up when talking to John? Because he is giving the signal down below to the people who cannot hear him to get ready. We also don't see enough of the tree to make any judgements about it's size - but from my experience in living in a big city with trees planted along the sidewalks, I will say that those trees are usually planted in a planter far out on the sidewalk so that the tree won't grow too close to the buildings (roots are more dangerous than branches, as they can grow into a building's foundation and cause structural integrity), and that they are usually ornamental trees, which don't grow very tall, or maples, which are straight up and very flimsy but fast growers. That tree is too far away to make a judgment call, but again, there's absolutely no evidence that the tree is even close enough, tall enough or sturdy enough for it to be an option- or that Sherlock is considering using the tree to climb down. But for the sake of argument, let's assume he is thinking of it and does use a dummy that is being manipulated by Molly- if he is using a dummy on the roof, why not take the safe way down INSIDE the hospital while the dummy is up on the roof? I don't really see how it is plausible to make a corpse or dummy move like a man, and definitely don't see how someone could manipulate the arms and legs as the dummy goes down. You did ask for a simpler theory, though- Sherlock DID jump. And I'm going to use some of the spoilers from the shoot to back up my claims. Sherlock's on the roof and looks down while talking to Moriarty. He may see things starting to come together down below, and he realizes that he can spring his trap to get Moriarty to kill himself- because he can't pull off his jump unless Moriarty is no longer there. He somehow forces Moriarty's hand, Moriarty eats a bullet, and then Sherlock acts distraught- but why would he act distraught if he was planning on Moriarty to die all along? He touches his head very strangely- like he is putting something on it. He also covers his mouth and nose. He goes to the ledge (which has a mark on it, btw), calls John, boo hoos, holds out his arm, letting everyone below know he's ready, and then does a Peter Pan off of the ledge onto something below that breaks his fall (maybe the blue inflatable thing) and then runs and hides in order to bloody his face and put the ball in his armpit (which he did pocket on his way out of the lab- watch that scene very very closely and you will see that). People below have already set up a dead body with blood on the sidewalk, which is what John sees when he immediately rounds the corner. However, he gets knocked over by the guy on the bike, giving Sherlock a moment to run over to the crowd of people and take the body's place as it is dragged away. John goes over, can't feel Sherlock's pulse, is distraught, and Sherlock is loaded up on a gurney and taken inside. Notice, however, as he is rolled in- the pigeons on the window above him fly away. Molly was watching out of the pathology window the entire time, and the only way for her to see all the way down would be to open the window and look over the ledge. Sherlock is then taken inside the arches, but then wipes some of the blood from his face and takes off from the hospital. Molly will take care of the rest, by faking his autopsy and papers. If you want me to, I will gladly put up pictures to support this entire theory.

Is it okay if I ask a few question to refute this? All in good spirit, please don't get upset about it. 1. If it is a dead body, how does the person on the way down flail his or her arms and legs? 2. Why would the kid doctor stop his heart when all Sherlock needs to do is fool John is to mask the pulse in his arm (which he can do with the squash ball)? If the kid doctor was already working for him, he doesn't have to do anything fancy to stop his heart- he just has to make sure John can't take the pulse in Sherlock's carotid artery. 3. Even if they had thrown a body from the roof, it still would not have landed the way Sherlock was facing on the ground. Why would Sherlock lay in a different position than the body was laying if the change in position could have been seen by John before Sherlock could switch out? 4. Going down a tree is really risky and not easy to do quickly. The top branches of the tree will not be very strong, and definitely will not be strong enough to support a man's weight. 5. Why go through all of the trouble of the dead body, tree and injection when a simpler theory would work better and with less risk? I would look at what we know for certain. 1. Sherlock sent a text to Moriarty telling him to come to St. Bart's, on the roof. We have no evidence that he changed this. 2. A live body was falling from the roof, because dead bodies cannot move his arms and legs like that. 3. Sherlock is laying in a different position from which he fell. 4. John could not see the impact because of the building in the way, and then was knocked over. 5. John felt no pulse in Sherlock's wrist. 6. Sherlock was carried inside. I see no reason NOT to believe that the inflated mat was used to break Sherlock's fall. Even if someone else jumped for Sherlock, they would STILL need something to break that person's fall. Given that, why WOULDN'T Sherlock take the fall himself, if he could do it as successfully as someone else (and indeed, who would jump off of a roof for him?). Also, here are some theories regarding the spoilers: Anyway, hope that helps to vet your theory a bit.

Here's the transcript: Gatiss: We cut down this bit slightly, there was a reference to their mutual strained (?) childhood and the fact that you, Sherlock, had rather spoiled the family atmosphere. It's gone for time, but in the end, I think that might be quite nice. We don't want to give too much away about this. BC: I discovered that my father was having uh um, can I say it? Gatiss: You can say it. BC: We might have it later? Gatiss: Maybe. BC: (something inaudible) Then I won't say it. (laughter)

I wouldn't consider it an official backstory, although Gatiss did not want Benedict to say too much about it. So I guess we'll see- it wouldn't surprise me if it came up at some point.

Yes, the way the trick is done is also to me far less interesting than the motivations and relationships amongst the characters. I want to know about Carl Powers, I want to know why the killer cabbie seemed to hate Sherlock. I want to know what happened to his parents that made it necessary for Mycroft to "play mother" for most of Sherlock's childhood. I want to know who James' sibling is, regardless of gender. What I am most interested to see when it returns, is how Sherlock's character arc changes in relation to what happened. Not sure if you have seen the DVD commentaries at all? In SIB, they say that the scene at the beginning between Mycroft and Sherlock (after the explosion) was much longer, but that they cut out a very important part of his backstory- and while Benedict couldn't say what it was, he strong hinted that Sherlock might have discovered his dad having an affair at some point. Now, they may or may not ever put that back in- but it was interesting to hear that the scene had more to it at some point

When I saw the hypnotist, I knew they were messing with us. Although it WAS hilarious- and if they DO manage to work that into the actual show, I will be utterly impressed. I don't think Moriarty is alive, though- I think it's a great way to keep people guessing for a long time, however. They knew that people were taking pictures, videos, etc- so they had fun with it. And I applaud them for doing so

I just posted a MAJOR SPOILER (I don't know how to hide something in these threads yet and this is really - well - ) and right now, Allin1 has had to toss out a lot of theory. Not just survive the fall theory, but character/plot theory. I'm a bit speechless now. Hard to believe, I know. (Carol, if you look at this and don't want to discuss it here, I have comments enabled.) I would be any money that they filmed that to throw people off. Give people a puzzle and watch them dance

Here you go:

LOL, Moffat and Gatiss are the biggest trolls ever. They threw out a ton of different possibilities today, some of which were just insanely off the wall (and hilarious). Especially this one: Awesome, can't wait to see what's real and what's not now

So, based on what we have so far... (MASSIVE SPOILERS):

I see. Well, he's wearing a coat when he runs into the building, you can see the sleeve just to the right of Donovan in the pic above. Is that his official forumspeak designator? "Pink shirt cop?" Heh, I guess it can be- until we get the rat's name Wonder if that's what "rat" is in the first episode?

I would think they had a little time off for location scouting and then come back and do a read-through. I would assume they would film in Cardiff for all of the flat shots first, too, but I guess it would just depend on their schedule. Btw, after the twitter deluge:

Shot of him with Lestrade right before they go to get the kids. Bad cop is wearing a pink shirt, so just follow the pink shirt

I don't offhand recall errors on the Sherlock DVD's subtitles, either (and subtitles errors generally irritate me sufficiently to remember them). From a we-know-it's-a-tv-show perspective, right, the editor used two different takes. From a Sherlock-universe perspective, we were seeing them from a sufficiently different angle that it was hard to be sure who was in front. However, I don't think a split second's difference would really be relevant. They were all going in different directions (remember Donovan yelling, "Spread out!"?). In that big of an unfamiliar building, it was unlikely that anyone would accidentally walk rapidly straight toward the children, so all the pink guy had to do, really, was hustle his butt in the right direction. Exactly- he knows where the kids are so he makes a beeline, while everyone else is being more careful about it. Just wanted to point out the editing mistake so that it was clear that it was just a mistake and not planned that way