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leanne_maybe
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Posts
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Joined
Everything posted by leanne_maybe
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I was only joking with the word 'harsh'- I just meant that the writers were leading people to the conclusion that Moriarty is still alive, so it's not surprising that some people think he is! I think the bit after the credits is quite annoying really - it's quite unnecessary to show if Andrew Scott has no further involvement in the show - it's a tease, but one that will lead nowhere if it isn't the actual Moriarty or a twin (and I don't think it's either)
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Series 4 Speculation from LJ: Mary as Moran...
leanne_maybe replied to aely's topic in Special and Series 4
Lol, well lucky they know the canon, as I clearly don't! :-) -
'Mistaken' is a bit harsh - 'misled by the writers' more like! They have shown a picture of him saying 'did you miss me?' then the actual character saying the same thing - you can see how the mistake could happen!
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Series 4 Speculation from LJ: Mary as Moran...
leanne_maybe replied to aely's topic in Special and Series 4
Morstan and Moran are pretty similar names to be a coincidence, especially from writers who know the canon so well... -
Lol, I also assumed that 'disillusioned' had to be linked to 'lib dem voter' - how could it not?!
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Well, all we know for sure is that she was his assistant. Maybe he was just practicing his "flicking" technique on her? Or maybe that's how he keeps his employees in line? Magnussen (unlike the original Milverton) apparently extorts power rather than money, so he doesn't seem to bother blackmailing "unimportant" people like Janine. There would be no power for him to gain.Hmm, that makes sense - power not money. But I got the impression he had been blackmailing Mary for a while - I wonder what power she had? Of course,she is leverage to Mycroft via John and Sherlock,but before Sherlock returned,she wouldn't have that. Also it has actually just occurred to me that Magnusson's comments about Janine don't actually prove she was having it done to her - she could be making 'the funniest noises' while doing it to someone else! Would fit in if she was 'Janine Moriarty' as a theory has suggested. I don't think so, though, I like her - but then, I liked Mary,so what do I know....!And if everyone John knows is a psychopath,he knows Janine a bit more now,so....
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It's interesting,because if there are truly no vaults,he has no evidence,as John points out. He says he doesn't need evidence because he prints it in the papers, and certainly that is enough to destroy someone's reputation whether there is evidence or not. But according to Sherlock at the beginning, Magnusson does do deals with people when he's ready,so what does he give them in the exchange? The promise of his silence wouldn't be particularly reassuring for me....! The thing is he doesn't need to remember that much information, just enough to convince people he has more, surely? - he doesn't seem to be tested on it very often. He said he could call up people who hated Mary, but he doesn't do so because John isn't going to risk it. So how do we know? It is very clever!
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I read a suggestion on another page that Janine could be 'Janine Moriarty'....Janine isn't too far from the feminine of James,and Watson's brother changed gender in this series!
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I am with you on solution 5 - I thought that from when the scene with 'Richard Brooke' was on, but I didn't think an actor would be prepared to kill himself for a scene! But then the actor could have been told the gun wasn't really loaded, or could have been told, like Sherlock, that if he didn't do it, people he loved would be killed....he did seem so unhinged though! I suppose the brother theory is closer to canon, though.
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So not walking away after all, but instead making an argument (among other things). Okay. By saying "could" you are claiming that the script may be indicating CAM is reading something other than a physical or digital or mental file. What other option are you claiming exists for the script to be having CAM read? Remember, while it is just a TV show, it isn't a science fiction TV show (like Moffat's other big hit), so lets keep things in the realm of reality... :-) I am in the realm of reality. IE, not arguing over a TV show. Just chill :-)
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Thank you for acknowledging what I've been claiming has been in the script all along - ie Sherlock's recognition that CAM was not reading physical or digital, but in fact mental files. In other words, that Sherlock recognized, as you put it, CAM "could access his vaults mentally". Of course that fact alone was not how the script revealed Sherlock's deduction about any physical vaults and his consequent plans, including the killing of CAM. As I explicitly stated, if you wanted the rest of what you demanded - quotes from the script which show all that I've been claiming - I would be happy to provide them. However, you've indicated you prefer to agree to disagree instead. So I'll simply leave as read the proof that all the rest of my claims were as validly supported in the script as this one - and walk away as you request. I said 'could' ;-) but don't worry, i'll stop using your 'pressure point' now and just remind you it is a TV show, not real, so let's not take it too seriously...
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I thought in canon, it was Watson who was the gambler? Or have I remembered that wrong? I wonder if they will do anything with that in this show? Of course, the idea of him being 'addicted to excitement/danger' can fit in with a gambling personality.
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Well, all we know for sure is that she was his assistant. Maybe he was just practicing his "flicking" technique on her? Or maybe that's how he keeps his employees in line? Magnussen (unlike the original Milverton) apparently extorts power rather than money, so he doesn't seem to bother blackmailing "unimportant" people like Janine. There would be no power for him to gain. That's an interesting point - power not money. How long was Mary being blackmailed for then? I thought it was from before she met John, but the power she had was leverage to Mycroft,so there wouldn't have been much gain for Magnusson prior to Sherlock's return. Unless Mary has something else up her sleeve....! I suppose an assassin is privy to a lot of secrets and grudges...
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Oops,my previous comment was submitted last night,don't know how it took so long to show! And it's relating to something now about 3 pages back. Oh well.
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RadCap,the script could suggest that Sherlock knew Magnusson could access his vaults mentally, not that there are no physical vaults at Appledore. So there are a lot of ways for the writers to go with it,and I am happy to agree to disagree while they do,as the mods requested.
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Funny that I've pointed to the facts in the script four times now and yet you keep blithely declaring they do not exist. Sherlock's explicitly stated motivation in the script is to see the vault. So, contrary to your claim, it is far more than merely "personal opinion". Nor is it, contrary to your claim, just "personal opinion" that Sherlock recognizes in the cafe that CAM has Appledore in his mind - ie that CAM himself is the "portable Appledore". That explicit revelation is the entire point of that scripted scene. And, contrary to your claim, it is not "personal opinion" but fact that the script reveals Sherlock has the entire plan put together right after discovering the vault is mental rather than digital - right down to the day it will occur - months later on Christmas - and down to the explicit motivation for it: Sherlock's "deal with the devil" is, contrary to your claim, explicitly stated right in the script, to be the betrayal of his brother - not for Mary's files - but to see the vault. Everything I've stated about Sherlock's motivation has, contrary to your claims, been in the script. In fact, the script virtually beats the viewer over the head with it - especially with Sherlock's discovery that Appledore is in CAM's mind. I'm not sure why you keep trying to claim all of this doesn't exist in the script, but if it is more "fun" for you that these scripted facts not exist, then far be it for me to stand in the way of your "enjoyment". If you truly don't want to talk about them further, then I won't discuss them with you any longer either. Seems fair enough. Please *quote* lines/stage directions - *not* 'he looked like this which meant he was thinking this'. If you can't do that, we're going to have to agree to differ and accept that none of us know except the writers - and if you are one of the writers undercover, i'm sorry but you didn't do a good enough job of conveying what you wanted to get across!
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Interesting that you believe the reaction should be "Aha! I thought so!" as opposed to "Damn! Now I have to go through with it and lose John (and likely my life) in order to save him!" Benedict was quite a wonderful actor if one realizes what the reaction would actually be in those circumstances. Already stated why. So that CAM's henchmen would not act against Sherlock or John - ie the reason for specifically wanting the police there is to protect the two of them. Quite an act of genius actually. As to a "better place" for the killing (not murder) - the death of CAM was a secondary, not the primary, purpose in going to CAM's place - a purpose wholly dependent upon the outcome of the fundamental purpose in going there. Sherlock's primary purpose was to confirm or deny his deduction that the vault was in CAM's head. The vault, as the script explicitly states, is what Sherlock is out to see there - the vault is what he keeps demanding. Again, recall his "deal with the devil". Sherlock offers Mycroft up in exchange, not for Mary's files, but to see the vault. Remember, stick to the script. It is the "authority". You are free to interpret Sherlock's intentions as you wish - maybe it was to confirm a (thought but unspoken) deduction, maybe he wanted access to material evidence against Mary prior to the arrival of the police to arrest CAM (this is the motive to which CAM refers), or maybe other people have other interpretations. However, what you think a character's motivation might be is nothing more than your personal opinion unless it is stated in the script, which it is not. However, I am not going to argue about this any more, as it has stopped being enjoyable and I only visit this forum for a bit of fun. It's only a telly programme, after all. Now, as I was saying DI Lestrade.... Agree with you 100%, Slithytove!
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I agree, this episode did feel more like a movie! And it is pretty dark and sinister, but i'm not sure if I find it any more dark and sinister than the scenes with Moriarty - the Great Game was extremely sinister. I get where people are coming from with John's character apparently changing, but actually it was established from the very first episode that John is a bit dark - Mycroft tells him to fire his therapist as she thinks he has PTSD due to his war experiences, but actually he misses it. And Sherlock emphasises it further - many people may miss aspects of being in the forces, but John specifically misses 'dead bodies and violence'(that's not an exact quote but the gist)as he's seen 'enough for a lifetime' 'want to see some more?' 'God,yes' - he hasn't really changed that much!
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I loved those scenes too - they were really funny! What I didn't get about Janine though was that she was being blackmailed by Magnusson, yes? He mentions how she reacts to having her face flicked when he is flicking John's face. But she is able to sell her story to his rivals and leave him 'spitting', and swan off to Sussex. How is it possible to do deals with a man who has no physical evidence of what he is blackmailing you on? Is she just going to pay him regularly to keep his silence, rather than work for him? And if he is 'spitting',I would have thought his price would be high enough to leave nothing for a cottage in Sussex...!
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Actually Mary's motivations are explicitly stated. More importantly, none of the actions taken contradict her claims. This is not true of the notion of a "plot" between Mycroft and Sherlock. Not only is there absolutely no explicit statements for such a plot, but in fact there are statements - and more importantly, actions - which contradict such a belief. Not that explicit, obviously, or there wouldn't be pages of debate about it. What do you think directly contradicts the idea that Mycroft knew already? Him being drugged too doesn't contradict it - it just means he was not implicated directly. It would be hard for him to exonerate Sherlock if he was on trial for treason himself. Also,he wasn't more than about 20 minutes total behind Sherlock and John,so pretty quick recovery. Something to do with Billy's exact knowledge of doses, perhaps? Plus it isn't exactly unheard of in this programme that implicit things become explicit only later - was there any explicit information in the last series that would suggest Mycroft could 'call off' John's sniper? Also there is nothing explicit that would say Sherlock knew from the cafe that there were definitely no hard copies of anything that Magnusson had on anyone.
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Ummm...there was no "plot" between Mycroft and Sherlock. Mycroft was not in on anything - which is why Sherlock drugged him along with the rest. There was the fact that the laptop had GPS in it for normal security purposes - which Mycroft would naturally track when he discovered it missing. In fact Sherlock was using Mycroft himself to be a witness that John was not involved in the killing of CAM. That is why he took Mycroft's actual case, rather than simply using a dummy version (as he did to Irene in SCANDAL). Sherlock wanted Mycroft to be there. There may have been. It is not explicit in the scenes seen, but it has been suggested on here as a possibility and it makes sense to me. As I said, it is not explicit, but nor are your ideas for Mary's motivation - we are reading between the lines here.
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I have been thinking about that scene in the garden. Mycroft saying 'your loss would break my heart' is quite out of character, although it is clear he does care more about Sherlock than probably anyone else, he doesn't normally say it. If they are discussing a pre determined plan, perhaps this is Mycroft emphasising the stakes involved, warning him to keep to the plan. If we assume that Mycroft did understand about Magnusson's 'pressure points' and that his would be down as Sherlock, it makes sense that he warns him off and says 'if you go against Magnusson, you go against me' - you go against me because if you're that close to Magnusson, I will be hurt through you. If this is the case, however, Sherlock would have chosen to hurt Mycroft rather than hurt John, by going off the plan at the end and shooting Magnusson- poor Mycroft!
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She didn't. Shooting Sherlock bought her time she simply didn't have in the office. Even that statement could be walked back by Sherlock if necessary. That is far different than John catching her in the act. At that point, CAM's damage is done to him. Not true. Sherlock asking to see CAM's vault rather than being given Mary's files is the reason. It is his love of John, not her, that leads him to kill (not murder) CAM. No. That was the bait he used to get to see the vault - ie to confirm no vault actually existed and thus no freedom could be obtained for Mary or John by a simple handing over of files. Sherlock's purpose is to obtain their freedom from subjugation by CAM. The moment he suspects there are no physical files to hand over - and thus no way to obtain their freedom from enslavement to CAM, is the moment he realizes he may likely have to kill CAM to gain their freedom. That moment is far, far before CAM is flicking John's face. That may well be the case, but I don't think it's definitively proved from what we see onscreen. I am leaning more towards the plot being between Mycroft and Sherlock, which Magnusson worked out anyway.There is enough 'evidence' reading between the lines for either.
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Me too! Mycroft has really developed as a character and he has hidden depths, and a heart in there somewhere...! I feel sorry that he is no-one's 'pressure point'....I don't think he is listed as Sherlock's, but I think Sherlock would rescue him if it came to it,wouldn't he? Once he'd got over the shock....!
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I think both of these plans make perfect sense and fit in with what we have seen. Certainly the dialogue in the garden really backs that up - I agree that the reference to 'something in the punch' was a knowing comment. I do like 'the most powerful man in England' who '*is* the British Government, hiding his smoking from his mother though!
