leanne_maybe

Mmm...that would be very interesting....because where have we heard of a brotherly relationship like that before? One mastermind, but doesn't like getting his hands dirty, so sends in his brother? :-)

It's not unusual that a blow to the head goes along with a - short term - memory loss. I suppose Janine would remember letting Sherlock into the elevator and just assume that - due to the blow to her had - she didn't remember him (or John) knocking her out after he entered the flat. I would agree that it's perfectly logical she would think Sherlock or John did it and she didn't remember, but she doesn't seem to think they did - she knows Sherlock has been shot, I suppose, but why wouldn't she suspect John? She knows she's only let 2 of them in and one of them is shot. She has to suspect John or conclude that there was someone else in there.

Sorry for disappointing you, but there are many psychopaths among the so-called 'helping professionals' (nurses, doctors, social workers, etc.). They've chosen their job to watch people suffer in order to satisfy their sadistic needs. In another thread Fox (Bakerstreet_Irregular) reported his experience with such a nurse (sorry I can't remember which thread). Mary is a psychopath and we all know that personality disorders cannot be 'healed'. She cannot change the very core of her personality and we've seen this when she shot Sherlock in cold blood and all the events afterwards (she visited Sherlock in hospital and threatened him etc.). Her love for John is simply egoistic and selfish, as other forum members already stated. The problem with killing Magnussen was that Janine wasn't dead and Mary wasn't willing to kill her, too. We don't even know if the security guard was dead, Sherlock just said "who cares" if he's alive or not. Janine had let Sherlock into the flat and would certainly tell the police that he was in the flat at the time the murder happened (while it was highly unlikely that Magnuessen would have contacted the police for the stolen letters - that didn't even exist, I suppose - they surely would have been contacted after he was murdered). And I have no doubt the security footage of the entrance of the building would have shown the police that John had been with Sherlock. So shooting CAM would have led to John becoming a murder suspect - along with Sherlock. Certainly not what Mary wanted to happen. I'm not defending Mary for shooting Sherlock, that was a bad choice. But shooting Magnussen wasn't an option any more in that situation. Following your logic: why Janine didn't tell the police that Sherlock was shot by Mary Morstan? Because Janine didn't see her. Either because of the mask or Mary knocked her off from behind. After killing Magnussen Mary could have fled and Sherlock could have phone the police and tell them he found Magnussen dead. There was no weapon, so I don't think Sherlock or John would have become a murder suspect. You're not disappointing me, no worries I just chose to see things differently than you. And we just don't know if Mary is, indeed, a sociapath or a psychopath. I chose to believe she isn't and that her love for John isn't more selfish than love in general is (because, let's be honest, in real life, love hardly ever is as purely selfless as we'd like to believe). I'm sure Janine didn't even know that anyone other than Sherlock and John ever entered the flat. Mary didn't come in through the main entrance, that's for sure, given her costume. Even if Sherlock had called the police, there would have been no guarantee of him and John not becoming suspects. It wouldn't be the first time that a murderer himself called the police to draw suspicion from himself. And as far as the absence of the murder weapon is concerned, with Janine (and the security guard) swearing that no one else could have entered the flat, the police would just assume that Sherlock and John had somehow got rid of the gun (for someone who faked his own death by jumping off a rooftop the disappearence of a murder weapon must just seem peanuts). Probably there wouldn't have been enough proof for a conviction, but John would at least have become a murder suspect and mentioned as such in the papers which would have caused him a lot of trouble, privatley and professionally. But if Janine didn't know someone else had entered the flat,who did she think had knocked her out? Obviously at the time she wouldn't be aware, but after she would know, so would she suspect Sherlock and John? It didn't appear she did, so she must have thought there was someone else in the flat.

Wasn't it Mummy Holmes? !!!!

This is a fascinating conversation. I also think Moriarty is what Sherlock could have been, although I agree that he fits the definition of a sociopath (which is not clearly defined as different from psychopath, except as has been said, in the public understanding) but Sherlock doesn't. I think Magnusson is what Sherlock could have been too - Moriarty is what he could have been if he just chased the excitement, and Magnusson what he could have been if he used his brain power and the mind palace for evil. I thought there was an interesting parallel in the 2 finales. They were both about information thought to be stored physically actually being stored mentally, meaning the person carrying it was killed. In TRF Sherlock needed the information and it was taken from him by Moriarty shooting himself. In HLV Sherlock used that idea to get rid of Magnusson's information.

Karie, I agree, I was angry with Lady Smallwood too for exactly the reason you said. Funnily enough I am not as angry with Mycroft - I expect it of him and anyway, I always think he has something up his sleeve! I agree that it would be interesting if one of Mary's victims killed her in revenge. We again have already seen a foreshadowing in TSOT, when the photographer is murdering the Major in revenge for his relative being killed. It appeared that the Major killed by accident, whereas Mary certainly didn't, so there would be even more feeling for revenge. Also when the photographer said 'i'm not the one who should be arrested' Mary looked shocked so I dare say it crossed her mind!

Wow - I have passed my 10th post! This hasn't been moderated, folks!

*Sigh* I know. Of course, theoretically, it could be just an older recording of him, used by somebody else. But I very much doubt it. Seems he is still alive. Which makes the entire Reichenbach Fall and aftermath even more pointless. Oh dear. I did really like Andrew Scott's portrayal of him, but honestly, how about just not killing good characters in the first place? I really, really dislike fake deaths and resurrections. All this makes Sherlock less special, dammit. That would be sneaky if they later said it was old footage! Right.....that's what they'll do then! I liked Moriarty too, but it is really hard to see how they can come up with a plausible story for the survival of someone who shot himself in the head....

That someone, I think was me, and if the "action trio" really is the future of this show, I will turn off (no, I won't, I'll only say I will, then go "oh look - there's Sherlock - must see him" and my brain will twist everything around him to my liking). About Mary. Again. Still. (What a great character to keep us in discussion about her for so long, huh?) I think Sherlock really, genuinely likes her. Because she is like him. She is more like Sherlock than like John. I believe him when he says the shot was "surgery" and I think he admires her for it, because it betrays a cold-bloodedness and a cleverness and daring that is like him (or like who he would like to be!). Sherlock does not forgive her at all, because he's never angry with her. He is worried that she will hurt John, but once he finds out that her first priority is to keep John happy and that her love for him is real, he does all he can to restore their marriage. He isn't one bit angry at her for himself. In her shoes, he probably would have done the same - and that's why it is probably even more important for him that John forgives her. It might be an indirect way of being accepted for the dark and cold side of his own nature and forgiven for all he has done and will do to him. I hadn't thought of it like that, but yes - she is like him, and if John doesn't like that, he can't like those aspects of Sherlock. That does make sense. And perhaps it was foreshadowed in TSOT, when Sholo says to Sherlock that they are alike and he agrees and says 'but *we* wouldn't do that to John Watson, would we?'

But we see him. We see Moriarty, after the credits, walking, talking, clearly not just an image. I mentioned earlier and asked what people thought we should get from that, but understandably the focus is more on Mary's story. But when Moriarty is mentioned, everyone talks about the image as evidence he may still be dead, and I would definitely agree with that if it wasn't for what was shown at the end of the credits.

Hurrah - I got one bit right!

I definitely thought Mary's story was more exaggerated than I expected. I thought she was being blackmailed, so may end up killing to escape this, and presumably she had done something bad, but not to that extent! I am also somewhat disappointed at where they have taken her character, and am confused about why she shot Sherlock - as commented earlier, she must have known he wouldn't go straight to the police. I wonder whether, in the arc of the story telling, we are meant to see Sherlock betray John to 'soften the blow' of John then betraying Sherlock by not trying to rescue him at the end. But I don't think it makes John a bad or immoral character for choosing his wife and baby (the baby at least is innocent) over Sherlock, especially when John would almost certainly be killed, while Sherlock has a powerful protector (and I don't believe Mycroft was going to just leave him to die - that's his pressure point!)

Regarding Moriarty - was I the only one who saw the bit after the credits with him walking around and talking? I thought at the end of the last series that the person we saw is an actor saying lines fed to him by Moriarty, as Moriarty did all the way through The Great Game, and the 'Richard Brookes tale was a kind of a double bluff. Then when I saw the TV screens at the end of this episode, I thought I was right, as the photo wasn't actually moving. But then after the credits we actually saw the person we saw shoot himself in TRF walking around and speaking, so that does seem to suggest he is actually coming back.

Just rewatching 'The Sign of Three' - I think it's the bridesmaid that Sherlock gets close to, as in canon. There was a bit of flirting at the wedding, she presumably is close friends with Mary to be her bridesmaid, so may have connections with CAM too, and there was a rival ready to step in, as Sherlock set one up at the wedding! Elementary my dear Watson :-)