wildwoodflower

Re: the two Irenes and television tropes. BBC Sherlock uses the same one (i.e. the love interest of the hero is murdered, hero loses it) but subverts it neatly. Sherlock takes no action to find whoever killed her. He (apparently) mopes. He could be depressed. His family and friends think this is likely (danger times) Sherlock MAY feel respsonsible, he MAY feel loss of what could have been - but all this is specualtion because we don't know for certain how he feels, we only see other characters observing his behavior and speculating on it. Sherlock's only overt reaction is to compose music. It's all the more intriguing for it.

The Two Irenes. We're about to be introduced to Elementary's Irene Adler via flashbacks (or so we read in TVGuide) and I was thinking about the difference between the two relationships - BBC Sherlock and CBS Elementary. In Elementary we have been told that Irene and Sherlock were in a relationship for seven months before she was "murdered". It has been implied that he was in love with her (he says 'smitten" and doesn't respond when Joan corrects him and calls it love). Although this is certainly more in keeping with the modern Western world where people hook up, it's also part of a well worn trope used in American telly. We don't know for sure about Irene yet, as we haven't seen her or how they interact, only we can assume she is really very clever - she would have to be for him to decide to be with her exclusively for that seven months. In Sherlock the character's interest in Irene is, at first, very clearly based on the intriguing mystery of her being, and on her superior intellect. I think there is also a physical attraction, but that comes later and is not the motivating force of his interest in her. He may not even believe he has a physical attraction to her.The implication/accusation of Sherlock being a virgin might be used for its impact as an insult (which he only finds mildly annoying because he either knows it's not true or places no value on it). But it's clear Mycroft thinks he knows the truth of it, at least the truth of Sherlock's inexperience with relationships or sexual attraction). Although I like the modern take on Sherlock Holmes in Elementary, I think BBC Sherlock's take on this is the braver storytelling choice. It doesn't rely on current tropes (oh no! the flawed hero's one true love was brutally murdered and hence he's all effed up and wiil/ must find her killer and avenge her death blah blah). Although I think Elementary might subvert the trope in some way, it still won't be fresh or challenging to the writer's or the actor or the audience. JLM is a great actor and will make us feel stuff, but it's nothing new. Whereas in BBC Sherlock there is rich depth of motivation and history implied in the actor's performance that we can only guess at and speculate upon. It's partly why the show generates so much fanfiction. Until we meet the Elementary irene we can't do a lot of comparisons as to how the character is written and played compared to Laura Pulver's version. But I'm kind of excited to get to do it.

Or, like you, they read the stories. Doesn't take a genius to borrow and reference another's work. Yikes, I'm grumpy today.

I officially declare my love of Elementary - (which in no way lessens my love of the BBC Sherlock, it's only that Elementary is not merely the placeholder in my heart for Sherlock but rather it now actually has a place in my heart ). Kelly

I like Elementary more and more, and it's become something I look forward to rather than it just being a placeholder in my fannish heart until the "real" thing returns.

There is an excellent story that answers these questions really well. Holmes is nothing if not thorough. And she left a few breadcrumbs for him to follow. It's got a lot of action/adventure, and ends up very sexy and sad. The writer is really familiar with Pakistan, Afghanistan and how things work in "the government." One of my favorites. Neither a Soldier Nor a Gentleman. http://archiveofourown.org/works/338793/chapters/548227

I think one of the old school fans (I mean scholars who were fans back in the day) estimated Holmes to be between 25-27 when Watson met him for the first time. I made him 25 for my novel because it was better plot wise if he was somewhat more callow. Of course Conan Doyle is not exactly precise with the dates or details or continuity in general. So I figured them both to be in their late twenties when they started their adventures together.

A new collection of short stories edited by George Mann with several written by friends of mine (and also one by me in case mods want to remove this post if it abuses the rules). But it is a new short story collection and we haven't had one of those in a while. The story by Cazan Scott is very funny and really enjoyable, and another, "The Mysery of the Locked Carriage" by Stuart Douglass is a fabulous pastische in true Watsonian style and also a pretty good mystery. http://www.amazon.com/Encounters-Sherlock-Holmes-George-Mann/dp/1781160031

I think Sherlock should have to knock on the door and ask John's wife if John can come out to play. And she would begrudgingly say yes. If a frienship is ruined because one of the friends is getting laid on a regular basis then not much of a friendship. Obviusly I have nothing invested in Johnlock shipping:-) But then, I never invest my energy is ships because they always get Jossed.

Absolutely one of my favorites, as well as The Seven Percent Solution. I can definitely see how Moffatt would be inspired by this version of Holmes and Watson. In fact, the plot is very similar to Scandal in Belgravia now that I think on it!

They are not just children's books, they are really good mysteries and so engaging, My granddaughter is eight and loved them and she adores anime, Doctor Who, unicorns and werewolves (sometimes wereunicorns, it's very complicated:-) But the funny thing is all the grown ups I've recced them too either have grown children or no children and devoured all the books. They're soooo good. Honest.

Oh cool, thanks! I'm sure the mods would be happy to know that it wasn['t due to my forbidden promotion of it here. (I was only trying to prove my worthiness of inclusion into the fandom and my long love of all iterations of Holmes, really!) Also glad you're enjoying so far. Slight background. I started this book after a hard drive crash killed everything else I'd been working on for seven long years. I wrote it as a lark, for fun, for therapy (as it was not meant to break my heart if I ever lost it), for pure entertainment, as a kind of anti-pastiche and for personal feminst reasons. And it ended up winning a a prize in a literary contest way back when. It's got me some pro writing work over the years. I'm also available for parties:-).

I think it's "the Case of the Missing Marquesa'. (not with my books at the mo), but if you google Enola Holmes mysteries all the titles will come up. She wrote six and claims the series is over, but... I hope not. Not steering you wring honestly. I have met no one that didn't love these books after they got past their preconceptions about what they were getting into.

I remember thinking the premise couldn't possibly work and that it sounded very fanficcy, but Nancy Springer has a lot of kids books under her belt and this series is charming and delightful and exciting and full of adventure and danger and its also hilarious. Enola is the fourteen year old sister of Mycroft and Sherlock, an embarrasing late life baby who is only two when her father dies. On her fourteenth birthday her mother disappears and that's how the series begins. Enola.is awesome. I've recommended this series to a lot of people and none of them have been disappointed.

Moderator's note: This thread is about the book series. For the movies, see Enola Holmes Film Series. I didn't see these mentioned here, but I have to say these are some of my very favorite Sherlock Holmes related stories ever. Nancy Springer's set up for the character's introduction is brilliant, The Holmes brothers are very in character and the historical acuracy is pretty spot on. Enola is the reason my granddaughter (7) thought she needed a corset (for hiding weapons and other useful items ). Springer writes believable girls who are smart, plucky and well-rounded people yet with the flaws and naivte of youth. (If something about these has been posted already, sorry. There's a lot of backlog I haven't got to yet.)

Stage play in the 70's toured all over. Gorey set design, lovely.

Dracula was freaking sexy as hell.

I saw Brett in Dracula on stage in 1977 or '78 (yes I am old) and he was awesome in it. I found his Holmes to be just a tiny bit creepy. I mean I loved it, but the affectations and mannerisms were sometimes offputting, and I think that was a brilliant bit of characterization. Just those odd little ticks and his bark of a laugh - brilliant. I had read the stories before I saw the series though.

Toy breaking can be very serious. And I have to argue such a broad generalization as "most brothers hate each other over girls." There are so many reasons brothers compete, for the affection of a parent for example. Siblings fight sometimes. The difference in ages between them could factor in as well. When you're fifteen and there's a seven year old around you may try to be a parent, r you may be completely inattentive when that child looks up to you. I hope the reason is really mundane because I think that would be funnier - like he completely destroyed a lego fortress or something.

As far as my bi-friends tell me, for a man, gay sex is always easier to get (if you're remotely atractive). It is harder to convince a woman to sleep with with you.even when you are attractive. Poor men, they suffer so. Maybe he is fluid in that way, but I doubt we'll see it played out. There's a great fic story involving Alistair (no sex scenes, just history). Can't remember the title though. I will rec it when I do.

Oh. Who decided he was a vrigin? That is certainly never stated in the ACD canon. He was probably celibate,that seems to be implied, or assumed by Watson, though was also never stated ourright in canon. (Well, it wouldn't have been back then, right?) In the BBC Sherlock, it's used as an insult and it's implied - and SH certainly doesn't protest to the contrary either, but that seemed more out of an idea it would make him appear more foolish than he was already feeling at that moment. Protest too much and all that. But inexperience and reticence re:relationships doesn't mean a person has never had sex. I'm sure this is a well-worn argument though.

I think she was also playing Watson as a few years older than Holmes. He'd a bit doddering by that time. I had to let go of my Watson to enjoy the books - which, as I said, the first three were quite good, I thought. I have to let go of a lot of assumptions reading those books though - like how the age difference is a bit creepy:

Well, applying the Asperger's diagnosis (and observations of a friend with this) - I noticed that it wasn't necessarily Molly in that instance, but rather the fact that she said the note on the door said to come up - he seemed to be (actor playing it that way) having trouble coping with the amount of people in the room. We'd already seen him demand everyone to stop thinking (in Pink) - it was just too much of the wrong kind of stimuli - so he retreated into the thing that engages his mind (fixates maybe), picking apart the moticvations of others through keen observation of details, and then realized he was being a shit. He was a horrible dick to her, but did apologize. Which means that he knew how horrible and that he cared how she felt.

Uh, yes. She was screwing with his mind by pointing out John's genuine and real feelings for his friend and making it secual, because that's her profession and because she's good at screwing with people. I take John at his word for not being gay. That doesn't mean he doesn't love the man. I like relationships that are honest and allow for the many variables of human love and sexuality. But men can be close friends and love each other without wanting to jump each others bones all the time. To constantly suggest otherwise does men a great disservice. That being said, fanfic and shipping is all about fantasy and fulfillment of same. And Sherlock is written as ambiguously as possible re: his sexualitly and the producers have genrously (or mockingly) played to the fangirl elements with visual cues and in the text.. So everyone gets to play. Also fanfic writers (who are statistically mostly women) seem to enjoy the romance and the angsty implications of romance. I am a woman who doesn't enjoy romance for its own sake and so find myself mostly annoyed by the slash. Not because it can't or shouldn't exist between the charaxters (I've read some stories that build that aspect of their relationship beautifully) but because it so often revolves around the domestic side of things. Which is (to quote SH) boring. As hell. To me.

I was just thinking that an awful lot of people were involved in helping him pull off his magic trick - and it seems a bit farfetched that at least some of the people who rushed out from the hospital to respond were NOT in on the plan. You could assure that the very first people would be your own people, but not the near immediate second wave. Confusion would be his friend at those moments though. I just hope the explanation is as interesting or cleverer than the ones fans have come up with or I'm going to be so annoyed.