Why did Moriarty kill himself?

[Julia Mae]

Moriarty may not have been afraid of torture but there has been something else going on with him for him to commit suicide if that is what it took to force Sherlock into the jump.

 

I was thinking about something Sherlock said to John in the flat when John says, "You'd care if they thought you were stupid or wrong."   And Sherlock replies, "No. That would just make them stupid and wrong." 

 

I have to agree with bborchar about Moriarty "winning" at the pool, Sherlock only survives by the coincidence of a phone call after being essentially led by the nose through the whole episode. 

 

But now we have The Reichenbach Fall: the fall of Rich Brook. This time, Sherlock wins all the way, including making Moriarty stupid and wrong for believing he is.  Or could be.  And he needs Moriarty to believe this a lot because of what you said: there has to be something else going on.

 

Moriarty facing an even more tedious existence without even the distraction of a clever Sherlock?  I think Sherlock brought him to this edge of despair on purpose while disarming him mentally by making him overconfident in the face of Sherlock's doofusness. 

 

This makes Moriarty feel as if Sherlock is being completely genuine, that he is not trying to manipulate or control Moriarty.  Everything Sherlock has said and done so far is designed, among other things, to put Moriarty in a mind-set to believe everything Sherlock says.

 

"I don't have to die if I've got you."

                "You think you can make me stop the order, you think you can make me do that?"

"Yes. ......  So do you."

 

IMO, this is where James is convinced.  ("Moriarty is smart - he planted that thought in her head, that little nagging sensation you have to be strong to resist.  You can't kill an idea, can you?  Not once it's make a home ... here."  Sherlock touches Lestrade's forehead.) 

 

Moriarty tries to resist but Sherlock has him all set up to believe, he has weakened James by taking away his  last distraction from a life he already finds unbearably boring and given him the perfect rationalization to concede: it's the only way he pays off his I.O.you.

 

It's almost like Sherlock planned to talk him into suicide.

 

[bborchar]

He did get it wrong.  "This is what it's all been for, all your little puzzles, making me dance.  All to distract me from this."  Moriarty didn't want those plans (he threw them away).  It's not much of a bait if the fish doesn't want it.  Moriarty came out not because of the plans, but because he REALLY wanted to hurt Sherlock, and hurting John was the only way he could.

 

Sherlock didn't care that those other people had died, he cared that he "lost" that round.  He even says so to John, and they fight about it.  To Sherlock, those victims are nobodies- the same way Moriarty feels about it.  And Sherlock thinks that he and Moriarty are the same...until John becomes a hostage.  Then Sherlock even gives up the plans just to try to save him.  Sherlock only decides to blow up the bomb when there is no other possible solution and it looks like both he and John will die anyway.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

There is debate that the memory stick wasn't even really the plans or that Sherlock has doctored them. He isn't fooled. As for Sherlock being saved by the ringing of the phone, he isn't the only one. John had already given his go ahead. Moriarty was certainly within the blast area as probably wre the snipers. Would Sherlock have detonated the bomb if the phone hadn't rung. That may be a very vital question that we may never know the answer to. But there is a very real possibility that he would have.

.until John becomes a hostage.  Then Sherlock even gives up the plans just to try to save him.  Sherlock only decides to blow up the bomb when there is no other possible solution and it looks like both he and John will die anyway.

At what point did Sherlock even know that John had been taken as hostage? When John steps out of that changing booth, for a few moments Sherlock is taken back thinking that John is in fact the bomber? Many people think this is the case. So, Sherlock could not be giving up the plans just to save him.

 

Moriarty: "I will burn you. I will Burn, the heart out of you."

Sherlock: "I have it on good authority that I don't have one."

Moriarty: "But we both know that's not quite true."

[bborchar]

There is debate that the memory stick wasn't even really the plans or that Sherlock has doctored them. He isn't fooled. As for Sherlock being saved by the ringing of the phone, he isn't the only one. John had already given his go ahead. Moriarty was certainly within the blast area as probably wre the snipers. Would Sherlock have detonated the bomb if the phone hadn't rung. That may be a very vital question that we may never know the answer to. But there is a very real possibility that he would have.

.until John becomes a hostage.  Then Sherlock even gives up the plans just to try to save him.  Sherlock only decides to blow up the bomb when there is no other possible solution and it looks like both he and John will die anyway.

At what point did Sherlock even know that John had been taken as hostage? When John steps out of that changing booth, for a few moments Sherlock is taken back thinking that John is in fact the bomber? Many people think this is the case. So, Sherlock could not be giving up the plans just to save him.

 

Moriarty: "I will burn you. I will Burn, the heart out of you."

Sherlock: "I have it on good authority that I don't have one."

Moriarty: "But we both know that's not quite true."

 

In the dvd commentary, Benedict Cumberbatch says that Sherlock got it wrong, and when he first sees John step out, he thinks that John is Moriarty (until John shows him the bomb).  Look at his reactions- he's clearly confused at first, and then angry.  He really did get it wrong, and the plans aren't fake (the audience would have been told if they had been).  Sherlock's plan wasn't to trick Moriarty with fake missile plans, it was to lure him out using them.

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

 

... the plans aren't fake (the audience would have been told if they had been)....

 

 

Actually, we did get pretty strong hint that the memory stick Sherlock hands Jim isn't the original -- Sherlock has already told John that he gave the real one to Mycroft.

 

[bborchar]

 

... the plans aren't fake (the audience would have been told if they had been)....

 

 

Actually, we did get pretty strong hint that the memory stick Sherlock hands Jim isn't the original -- Sherlock has already told John that he gave the real one to Mycroft.

 

 

He was lying to John so that John wouldn't know what he was up to (John would have never let him do it if he had known).  He's pretending to watch a trashy television show until John leaves - even saying he would buy the milk just to get him to go and not come back.  This is all stuff that Sherlock would never do otherwise. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

True, could have been part of his verbal camouflage.  If so, I very much doubt that he even told Mycroft he'd gotten it -- until maybe afterwards he suggested that Mycroft send a diver over to the pool.  On the other hand, that part could have been true.  I guess we don't really know.

 

I agree about why he didn't tell John where he was going -- same reason why he didn't explain his swan dive.

 

[bborchar]

Yeah, he wouldn't have told Mycroft he had it because Mycroft would have wanted it immediately.  It wouldn't surprise me if they had given Mycroft a wet and ruined memory stick.

 

I think Sherlock has a well-deserved beating coming from John

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yeah, he wouldn't have told Mycroft he had it because Mycroft would have wanted it immediately.  It wouldn't surprise me if they had given Mycroft a wet and ruined memory stick.

I'm still iffy on this, but if that was the real one that Moriarty threw into the pool, Mycroft would perfectly happy just to have it back. They already had a copy (at least that's what he told Sherlock, or maybe it was John). They just didn't want the plans falling into the wrong hands.

 

Horrible thought -- Sherlock is so rattled (or indifferent) that he forgets all about the memory stick in the pool.  It's found by a couple of teenagers, who use the information to hack into the British missile system and .....

 

 

 

I think Sherlock has a well-deserved beating coming from John

 

 

 

[bborchar]

 

Yeah, he wouldn't have told Mycroft he had it because Mycroft would have wanted it immediately.  It wouldn't surprise me if they had given Mycroft a wet and ruined memory stick.

I'm still iffy on this, but if that was the real one that Moriarty threw into the pool, Mycroft would perfectly happy just to have it back. They already had a copy (at least that's what he told Sherlock, or maybe it was John). They just didn't want the plans falling into the wrong hands.

 

Horrible thought -- Sherlock is so rattled (or indifferent) that he forgets all about the memory stick in the pool.  It's found by a couple of teenagers, who use the information to hack into the British missile system and .....

 

 

Just remembered a piece from the Sherlock casebook about that- it's written by John (with notes from Sherlock).  Here's what he wrote about it:

 

John: "And of course, Sherlock handed the plans straight back to his brother, didn't he?  Didn't he?  I mean he wouldn't be so stupid as to use them to try and flush out a psychopath obsessed with destroying him.  No.  Even Sherlock wouldn't be that reckless, surely?"

 

Sherlock: "It worked."

 

Just a little fun- it's a great book with lots of interesting facts and easter eggs (no notes from Sherlock on TRF, obviously).

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Sherlock may have gotten something wrong, if Benedict Cumberbatch says so, I will have to listen to the commentary. I have already mentioned his confused reaction to seeing John step out and say something about "This is a turn up, isn't it Sherlock?" thinking for a moment that John might have been the mad bomber. So no, he didn't take the memory stick just to hope to trade it for John. He was planning to use it somehow  and it had to do with Moriarty, he held it up and said he had brought a present. But then Moriarty had brought a "present" as well.

 

Maybe this is what Sherlock had gotten wrong? The fact that he thought he could bring the game to an end just between him and Moriarty?

 

 I think Sherlock meant the meeting for a showdown between himself and Moriarty but when Moriarty brought John into the picture it was another game changer. Irene calling was yet another. So we will never really know what Sherlock intended and what the outcome might have been.

 

His plans to meet with Moriarty at the pool was made before John even leaves the flat to go to Sarah's. Even if the memory stick were the real plans, I suppose "The British Government" would have the people with the know how to retrieve some of the data. Just like he believed they could retrieve some data from the phone should it self-destruct. So what ever it was, something convinced Moriarty to meet with Sherlock at the pool at midnight.

[Julia Mae]

 

... the plans aren't fake (the audience would have been told if they had been)....

 

 

Actually, we did get pretty strong hint that the memory stick Sherlock hands Jim isn't the original -- Sherlock has already told John that he gave the real one to Mycroft.

 

 

Yes.  I can buy Sherlock being a lot of things, but a traitor isn't one of them.

 

[bborchar]

What Sherlock gets wrong is thinking that the reason Moriarty was doing all of the bombing games was in order to keep Sherlock from finding the missile plans, when in fact it was because Moriarty just wanted the mess with him. You can't predict crazy- that's why it's so scary.

 

And while the Sherlock in the original stories did care about queen and country, this Sherlock doesn't- he and John even fight about it when Sherlock refuses to work on the case. He ends up only taking the case because he THINKS it's the reason Moriarty has been playing the game- in order to keep Sherlock from finding it before he does (again, this deduction by Sherlock is wrong).

[bborchar]

Just a thought- but what if Sherlock had figured out the recall code?  What if Bach's partita No 1 WAS what Moriarty tapped out on his knee, and it was the code?  Sherlock says "Don't think for ONE SECOND that I am one of them".  He emphasizes the "one second" very heavily.  What if it was the second movement of partita no 1?  If Sherlock does say "If I've got you" using the Bach motif, then the clue would have something to do with Bach.  And since Moriarty mentions partita no 1, it could be a bar from the second movement. 

 

Really out there theory, but just trying to think of things that would make sense

 

However, I'm almost convinced that whatever Sherlock says, he's tell Moriarty the recall code- because if Sherlock knows the recall code, that would tell Moriarty that Sherlock was playing him the entire time and that Sherlock knew what Moriarty was going to have Sherlock do and how he was going to force Sherlock to do it.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I agree with that this Sherlock is not the patriot that the original Sherlock was but Moffat and Gatiss have said that this a younger Holmes then what he was in the books and what we are used to seeing in the movies but he is maturing.  

 

If Mycroft, hence The British Government, hadn't gotten at least a copy of those plans back there would have been serious repercussions. Since  Sherlock's name comes up in a positive way in "SIB" at "The Palace" then they must have procured the Bruce-Partington Plans in good order because he is still in a position of high trust in high places.

 

So either the memory stick that went into the water was protected in some way or they weren't the real plans. And there is a whole lot of things that we, the audience, are not being told. Which is half the fun. The speculation and the anticipation that the things we don't know will be revealed at some point.

 

And yes, there are times when even the original Sherlock Holmes got things terribly twisted and wrong, but that makes him all the more human and believable and always the hero. A lose? More like a draw both he and Moriarty foiled by the Adler Woman's phone call.

[bborchar]

I agree with that this Sherlock is not the patriot that the original Sherlock was, but if Mycroft, hence The British Government, hadn't gotten at least a copy of those plans back there would have been serious repercussions. Since in the very next case, Sherlock's name comes up in a positive way at "The Palace" then they must have procured the Bruce-Partington Plans in good order because he is still in a position of high trust in high places.

 

So either the memory stick that went into the water was protected in some way or they weren't the real plans. And there is a whole lot of things that we, the audience, are not being told. Which is half the fun. The speculation and the anticipation that the things we don't know will be revealed at some point.

 

And yes, there are times when even the original Sherlock Holmes got things terribly twisted and wrong, but that makes him all the more human and believable and always the hero.

 

The reason I don't think we are ever going to hear about those plans again is that this show does not revisit past episodes unless the episode was a cliffhanger, then it resolves it and moves on.  Other than the characters evolving, there hasn't been one episode that has gone back to a case and said "Oh, btw, this didn't happen".  And I seriously doubt it would happen a full two seasons later.  There is a full 18 months in between series one and two, and I really think we would have been told about it.  The writers haven't left out important information before, and that would have been pretty important.  But add that to the fact that the casebook says Sherlock used the real one and BC says Sherlock used the real one, I just can't see why he didn't.  Sherlock isn't a trustworthy man (especially not at that point in the story), and we've seen him doing bad things in order to solve a case or "win the game" (torture a dying man, sell out his only real love interest, drug his best friend and frighten him to death in a lab, etc).  He wouldn't have even take the case from the royal family had it not involved an interesting woman like Irene Adler, so I just don't see how he cares about Queen or Country.  I'm sure he gave Mycroft the wet memory stick afterwards, but Mycroft doesn't really "trust" Sherlock- he uses him to do the legwork that he himself doesn't have time for.  Mycroft knows how to manipulate his brother (and pretty much everyone else, too), and Sherlock knows it, which is at least part of the reason he resents him.  Mycroft only miscalculated the Adler case because he probably didn't think any woman capable of seducing Sherlock, and he was wrong.  But Sherlock steals gov't property in that episode- he takes Adler's phone and keeps it.

[Julia Mae]

And while the Sherlock in the original stories did care about queen and country, this Sherlock doesn't- he and John even fight about it when Sherlock refuses to work on the case.

 

But he didn't refuse, he just wouldn't say yes to Mycroft.  In fact, Sherlock sends John and then follows him to every place John goes in the investigation.  Sherlock already figured it out, he was just waiting for the right time to go to the badguy's flat.  Sherlock is as patriotic as anyone, he just likes to think of himself as not running with the pack unless he is in front.

 

[Julia Mae]

I agree with that this Sherlock is not the patriot that the original Sherlock was but Moffat and Gatiss have said that this a younger Holmes then what he was in the books and what we are used to seeing in the movies but he is maturing.  

 

If Mycroft, hence The British Government, hadn't gotten at least a copy of those plans back there would have been serious repercussions. Since  Sherlock's name comes up in a positive way in "SIB" at "The Palace" then they must have procured the Bruce-Partington Plans in good order because he is still in a position of high trust in high places.

 

So either the memory stick that went into the water was protected in some way or they weren't the real plans. And there is a whole lot of things that we, the audience, are not being told. Which is half the fun. The speculation and the anticipation that the things we don't know will be revealed at some point.

 

And yes, there are times when even the original Sherlock Holmes got things terribly twisted and wrong, but that makes him all the more human and believable and always the hero. A lose? More like a draw both he and Moriarty foiled by the Adler Woman's phone call.

 

What was missing was a copy of the plans, Mycroft says so to John, that what went missing was not the only copy.  The issue wasn't that the plans were lost, but that they would fall into the wrong hands.  This mirrors the Canon, where someone made a copy of the plans and sold them to an enemy.

 

It's always seemed to me that Sherlock also works for the government in his capacity as "consulting detective."  ("Don't make me order you.")  That argument is laid out here in The Privateer.   There's no chance in my mind that Sherlock took real missile plans to the pool.  And there's no doubt in my mind Moriarty knew it and that why he tossed the drive into the pool.  He might not have wanted the plans, but he'd hardly toss something that could be traded for profit.

 

[bborchar]

Then why, in the casebook, does it say that he did take the plans?

[Julia Mae]

Then why, in the casebook, does it say that he did take the plans?

 

You have a link or an exact quote for me?

[bborchar]

 

 

Then why, in the casebook, does it say that he did take the plans?

You have a link or an exact quote for me?

 

I wrote exactly what it says earlier in the thread, but I will copy it here again:

 

John: "And of course, Sherlock handed the plans straight back to his brother, didn't he? Didn't he? I mean he wouldn't be so stupid as to use them to try and flush out a psychopath obsessed with destroying him. No. Even Sherlock wouldn't be that reckless, surely?"

 

Sherlock: "It worked."

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

In the canon "The Adventure of the Bruce-Partington Plans" all but three pages of the stolen plans are recovered. But it was these three that were the most important and they were the ones that the villain planned to auction off. But even in the end of this story Sherlock is able to outwit and retrieve these papers before they can be sold.

 

In several cases such as the "Second Stain" and the "Naval Treaty" important government documents go missing but none fall into enemy hands.

 

The reveal may not come months later but may be hinted at. Like what really happened to the plans that Sherlock had at the pool. Real? Fake? Was Sherlock capable of treason? The truth comes in later. Like as in "SIB" and Sherlock is allowed into "The Palace" with nothing but a sheet. He is still in good standing with the government and so is Mycroft. There is no break of trust here.

 

In the "Adventure of the Empty Hearse" we will have had to wait quite a while to find out if there was a code and if so what was it? Did Sherlock singing a snippet from Bach mean anything at all. All questions that fuel the lively conversations in these threads, because, no, we don't have the answers.

 

If they follow canon it would be many months if not years before anyone on the ground knows these answers.  Yes, the audience maybe know more but only because they plan to do back story.....we are hoping any way. Or else we find out when the characters do.

 

And Benedict Cumberbatch calls Sherlock "A Class A hero". Heroes, even one as prickly and unpredictable as Sherlock Holmes, always, in the end, does the right thing. And that what makes Sherlock so interesting and fun. He is unpredictable he's not cookie cutter and boring.

[bborchar]

From the dvd commentary (not in order, but from the end):

 

 

Gatiss: And here we have Sherlock making a mistaken assumption, he thinks it's all been about the Bruce Partington missile plans the whole time, when in fact it's all just part of somebody's game. (ie: Sherlock is wrong)

 

BC: I like the idea of him at least trying to convince John that he's into television, brilliant. (ie: Sherlock's lying to John)

 

Add that in with the extremely telling paragraph from the casebook, it paints a simple picture:  Sherlock takes on Mycroft's case because he thinks Moriarty doesn't want him to get the plans, he lies to John about giving them back to Mycroft, and then uses them to lure out Moriarty.  By doing this he makes a mistake and almost gets John and himself killed, and is only let go because Moriarty finds something more interesting to do.

 

 

Also, Moffat and Gatiss said that they had absolutely no idea how they were going to end the pool scene until they wrote the script a year later.  They don't think ahead as far as people think they do, and they haven't gone back to revise old cases.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Even heroes make mistakes and even in canon, Sherlock would lie to Watson on occasion such as in "The Adventure of the Illustrious Client" 

For six days the public were under the impression that Holmes was at the door of death. He was recovering fast, and I had my suspicions at times that he was really finding himself faster then he pretended, even to me. There was a curious secretive streak in the man  which led to many dramatic effects, but left even his closest friends guessing at to what his plans may be. He pushed to the extreme the axiom that the only safe plotter was he who plotted alone. I was nearer him then anyone else, and yet I was always conscious of the gap between.

But it was always, as Dr. Watson would write, Sherlock "being true to himself". Watson never took a dim view of Sherlock because of it. There were times in canon that a case would almost get "Watson and himself killed". But in the case of the pool, Sherlock did not intend John to be anywhere near it.

 

A miscalculation in his part, perhaps.  Or just two opponents that thought so closely alike that it would be hard to out think and out out wit each other as almost happened but Sherlock came out ahead in the end.

 

He never gave up, even when he made mistakes and sometimes, even failed. He never gave over. He remains Sherlock Holmes, Consulting Detective. In canon he says that he would have made a rare criminal but he never does. He was the master detective and would always work against injustice.

[Julia Mae]

I wrote exactly what it says earlier in the thread, but I will copy it here again:

 

John: "And of course, Sherlock handed the plans straight back to his brother, didn't he? Didn't he? I mean he wouldn't be so stupid as to use them to try and flush out a psychopath obsessed with destroying him. No. Even Sherlock wouldn't be that reckless, surely?"

 

Sherlock: "It worked."

 

 

I would call it unclear at best and in any case not Canon.  However, Sherlock is still, at this point,  operating with a bit of megalomania: like a kid who thinks he can drink and drive because he's not ordinary, he can "handle" it.  So possibly he did take the plans or a copy of them, I suppose.  Doesn't make him unpatriotic.