Why did Moriarty kill himself?

[Alex the Dabbler]

Why would Andrew Scott be in the Series 3 cast if Moriarty is dead?  I know he was supposed to film some additional scenes at Bart's, but this article makes him sound like a cast regular for Series 3 and maybe beyond.  I also think that Moffat & Gatiss wanted Scott back, especially after he won the BAFTA last year.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I wouldn't strictly rule out much of anything at this point.  So maybe Moriarty didn't actually kill himself.  My money's still on "he did," but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Scott back sooner or later anyway, perhaps playing Colonel James Moriarty (the professor's brother, from the Conan Doyle canon) -- just put a mustache on him!

 

Like Julia Mae, I don't think that article actually said very much (in fact, whole gist of what Scott said was that he couldn't say anything), and certainly nothing particularly new.  There are a number of news sites that seem to be recycling old interviews, just emphasizing different bits, so this may be one of those.

 

Which is not to say that Moriarty is necessarily really dead, just that we won't really know till Series 3.  If then.

 

[Julia Mae]

Why would Andrew Scott be in the Series 3 cast if Moriarty is dead?  I know he was supposed to film some additional scenes at Bart's, but this article makes him sound like a cast regular for Series 3 and maybe beyond.  I also think that Moffat & Gatiss wanted Scott back, especially after he won the BAFTA last year.

 

It's always seemed to me that they are going to give us Sherlock and Mycroft's backstory.   ( Sherlock Backstory: the Homes/Moriarty Connection )  Moriarty told Sherlock in the Great Game that it was personal, between the two of them.  Their connection goes back to childhood, to Carl Powers, at least.  So I think there's a lot more for Andrew Scott to do than maybe a few scenes on the roof or something like that.

 

This from The Tale of the Killer Cabbie:

 

"

According to John Watson's blog, he and Sherlock looked at the flat at 221B Baker Street on the 30th of January.1

The first of the serial suicides occurred on October 12th.  This means that long before Dr. Watson meets Sherlock Holmes, Moriarty is planning to kill him."

 

 

 

I think Jim can be around quite a long time as they reveal more and more of Sherlock's background.  And then there is the other Moriarty we have yet to meet, "Professor Moriarty," James' brother in the Canon. 

 

Evil(er) twin, anyone?

 

ON a practical note, he would have been around for enough of the filming, even if he was only in roof scenes, to now what the trick to Sherlock's fall and survival is.  So possibly that's all he meant.

[IQ192]

/Kinda my final thoughts on TRF after reading this thread .

 

On Moriarty's continued appearances in the show....if Mycroft was in on the plan , which I think he was , then whats to stop MI6 / Gov intelligence hiding the body and stealing Moriarty's phone and replacing him with a lookalike / inside man in the criminal underworld. Remember M was always in the shadows and no one really knew him.

Kinda far fetched i know but the Holme's bro's could of been planning this since Baskerville. ( Did SH negotiate acess for his secrets)

 

On IOU @ Bach code , to use IOU in Bach's code it must first become I v U ? no O in old alphabet Bach used V and v instead , IvU then becomes the musical notes b a g , bag . A bag puzzle is a traditional challange/game of logic .

So it kinda translates into "me verses you in a logical challange / thinking match ? " and its to the death....the Tower Hills text rem .

 

When Sherlock says/sings " I got you " it is the winning move / phrase . This is a battle of wits ~ death doesn't matter here ( too dull boring ordinary).

Why is it the winning move ? Because Moriarty boasted (this is the tale of Sir Boastalot lol btw ) of the existance of the recall code .

It doesn't matter whether it is used or not this is about winning the game , this is brain warfare as Moriarty says ,,,

" If I am alive you can save your friends " .

So Sherlock has won at this point , Moriarty can't use the blackmail/shoot friends threat anymore , SH said no , " I got you" ..an out .

So the only move Moriarty has left to win the game is to take "you" ( himself ) out of the game leaving Sherlock on the ledge with nothing again .

Thus Moriarty shoots himself @ dies happy thinking Sherlock must now jump and he has won the game .

Everything else , the fake code , the fairy tales etc is explained in the show.

 

There are a lot of morality/semi religious symbols/words themes etc in this episode , kinda the hidden message for those that want to look and see , observe something deeper.

 

Briefly .Five orange pips = secret messages between religious groups , add in , King James Bible 1885 , the FALL of man , the APPLE ,rem. Eve , graffiti with one pair of WHITE WINGS , angels , one pair of BLACK WINGS , demons, " on the side of the angels " , "shake your hand in hell" , burning , and quite a few more .

 

This is kinda a deeper metaphorical representation of the good old good v evil morality thing

John @ Lestrade@ co being the angels side , and Moriarty @ criminals @ co being the demons side .

Moriarty thinks he is going to hell and he wants to take Sherlock with him , thats why he can't just kill Sherlock .

Sherlock must die a sinner via suicide or by becoming a killler in order to meet Moriarty in hell .

It seems the last few words they share reflect an agreement on that , Sherlock will be there to shake hands in hell, @ so M says " Bless You " . @ they shake on it .

M then goes on to shoot himself , winning and forcing the suicide pact . (sinners deaths or so he thinks)

 

And all this is followed by a miracle style ressurection...

Coincidences to be written off or are we supposed to be getting a fairy tale style / morality lesson here on the balancing act of what is good / not good in the modern age?

 

Sherlock is stuck in the middle of this , teaching Sherlock whats good and whats a bit not good has been a theme from the first , rem what Lestrade said about Sh becoming a good man in the first episode.

 

The great joke is Sherlock avoids the whole thing tricking both sides , beating both god and the Devil if you will .

He chooses Neither , Both ,and Cheats all @the same time.

 

"I'l just be myself."

 

In interview Moffat said ,,,, " Dr Who is a god trying to become human and Sherlock Holmes is a man aiming to become a god. " and this episode kinda makes it so .

 

SH Quote from canon . " I see no crime here only justice." @ a murder case.

Kinda reflective of that , SH can from now on decide for himself what is good and what is not good.

 

After all " The truth is rarely pure and never simple."

 

/only a true fan could come up with a SH is godlike theory huh..................... .

 

 

 

EDITORIAL ADDITION.

In ASIB Moff/Mycroft asks us all a Q ' my brother has the brain of a scientist and a philosopher . What does this tell us about him."

The show obviously looks at the science of deduction and everyone discuss's the deductions and science etc this post was an attemp to see the philosopher's side , and discuss those philosophical themes Moffat refers to .

[Julia Mae]

Kinda far fetched  i know but the Holme's bro's could of been planning this since Baskerville. ( Did SH negotiate acess for his secrets)

 

That Sherlock and Mycroft have planned Moriarty's defeat together is a theory explicated here in The Most Dangerous Game.  So, it's not at all far-fetched, it seems like a fairly obvious conclusion, to me.

 

On IOU @ Bach code

 

I've never thought there was anything to the theory of a "Bach code."  Composer's did this all the time and I've never seen a reason to think it was anything other than the music director being clever.

 

 

So Sherlock has won at this point , Moriarty can't use the blackmail/shoot friends  threat anymore , SH said no , " I got you" ..an out .

So the only move Moriarty has left to win the game is to take  "you" ( himself ) out of the game leaving Sherlock on the ledge with nothing again .

Thus Moriarty shoots himself @ dies happy thinking Sherlock must now jump and he has won the game .

 

 

I don't think they have made clear to us yet what the greater game actually is.  What it is Moriarty "owes" Sherlock, specifically.  Moriarty "wins" when he can finally obtain his personal goal: oblivion.  He only gets to die when he has fulfilled his duty: destroying Sherlock in a way that also destroys his reputation. ("That's the point of this.")  And it's been the point since S1E1.  (The Holmes/Moriarty Connection)

 

 

, graffiti with one pair of WHITE WINGS , angels , one pair of BLACK WINGS

 

I don't know why it's all over the internet that those are angel wings on the wall.  Not sure where the white wings are, but the wings on the wall are raptor's wings.  That last link, if you scroll down, takes you to Moriarty's family crest: black raptor on a silver field.  I think we have too much fandom cross-contamination in the interpretation of what is seen  - too much Superwholock thinking.

 

This is kinda a deeper metaphorical representation of the good old good v evil morality thing

 

Well, we definitely are always dealing with the nature of what constitutes good and evil, what do we base our judgements on , what  makes us human, after all?  

 

As for the religious themes, the quote that most often springs to my mind is: "Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for his friends."   That's what we saw Sherlock do, even though he survived bodily, he walked away from everything: his home and new-found actual friends, his life, his work which is his vocation and avocation, his reputation. 

 

 

 

[IQ192]

Hi ya@ Julia..interesting link ty

yes@Bachs , just a clever pun / joke in many ways  , @working with Mycroft could be obvious it was in canon over 100 years ago. >.> 

I do like the family feud idea..but it conflicts with the Sherlock / Cabbie convo , the cabbie is doing it for money and is estranged from his family.
"Fan"   seems like an odd choice of word for someone your in a feud with , and if he was related to M , I don't think he'd of named him at the end .
( wasn't a lot of torture?) . That kinda plot arc would be hard to continue with M dead, they could do a memoirs,,casebook thing and look back at it i spose but they would have to keep it as no contact / knowledge of M on Sherlocks end so kinda pointless.
I don't see these writers moving that far away from canon , tho seeing a younger Sherlock deduce something naughty about his father would be amusing and unsurprising.
Sherlock did look back at the Carl powers case for the name Moriarty and told John he couldn't find anyone alive , but I spose we do know that that is probably about the time Sherlock caught M's attention , it has for sure been a very long time.
Wings are a common theme on family crests , they are everywhere , but there is a eerie similarity to the ones in the show agreed.
However i don't think poking at the Irish / English history files would be a good idea..............could be dangerous indeed! and deffo not on the bbc!
Remember it mostly has to just be good entertainment / fun. The constrictions of the show mean they kind of have to keep it simple on the surface.

Moriarty specifically says he owes Sherlock a fall . He talked about why in TGG pool scene , and he likes to watch Sherlock dance. ( Who wouldn't?)
The pool scene threat ~ to burn Sherlock , to burn the heart out of him ~  seemed a little odd to me , and strangely overacted .
When you look back with the religious themes in mind , and see the faux possesion of John and Moriarty's crazyness at that moment ,  ask yourself what the warning / threat is really about . Makes it so much more amusing.
With the heart usually comes the soul no ? and that is what is played out thematically in TRF.The fight for Sherlocks soul / heart .
So if there is a greater game , thats likely it. The wheel turns and there is nothing new................
(Its kinda easy to say M meant John , but don't forget in that scene Sherlock was prepared to blow them all , including John up.) 

Sherlock does seem to lay down his life for his friends , just as Moriarty seems to kill himself , but thats not quite true is it? .
Both were magic tricks , manipulations of Sherlocks. Both noble ( ish ) and extremely cruel at the same time . Its both.
Sherlock does loose his current life style for a while , but it is also in his own best interests ~ saving his own life , winning the game and getting to go off on a veritable spider web of cases and adventures .
If he wanted to be noble or good surely he would of let them know and eased their grief a.s.a.p , he isn't playing Moriarty anymore ! They could of faked it / or safe house or something. But he doesn't care / understand about that or his reputation.

Religion is ~ not my area  ~ so no offence ~  but I do lol @ the Brilliant way Mofftis mock it via Sherlock here, humanity cannot be split simply into good and evil .
Today the papers say " Suicide of fake genius."   tomorrow they will say  " Fake suicide of genius." .  Its the war for peace paradox.
There is no right or wrong things are more complex.

Irene Addler got it right when she said to Sherlock I think you  " .....believe in a higher power. In this case yourself."  and I am with Sherlock.

Themes , even the blindingly obvious ones ( need i say ust @  Innuendo here lol ? ) are all just fun speculation and thinking party's
( isn't thinking the new sexy ? ) until or if ever  the writers and actors expand on what they have already said.

 

Think On @ XxX

[Julia Mae]

I do like the family feud idea..but it conflicts with the Sherlock / Cabbie convo , the cabbie is doing it for money and is estranged from his family.

"Fan"   seems like an odd choice of word for someone your in a feud with , and if he was related to M , I don't think he'd of named him at the end .

 

You might want to look at The Tale of the Killer Cabbie.  He lies.  I suppose we should expect serial killers to lie, but because he lies,  we can't take his version of Holmesian reality as accurate.  I don't know why you think  the cabbie would be in a feud with Moriarty.  So, I'm confused there.  And the eway he says the word "fan" in the show, makes  me think they are less "my bedroom is a taxi ride away" than "and when we get there, I'm going to kill you and eat you."

 

 

 

That kinda plot arc would be hard to continue with M dead, they could do a memoirs,,casebook thing and look back at it i spose but they would have to keep it as no contact / knowledge of M on Sherlocks end so kinda pointless.

 

I don't see these writers moving that far away from canon , tho seeing a younger Sherlock deduce something naughty about his father would be amusing and unsurprising.

 

 

 

There are at least two Moriarty's in the Canon.  Professor Moriarty and his brother James Moriarty.  Doyle famously screws up and later says Professor Moriarty's name is also James, but in the death of Holmes at the Reichenbach Falls, ("The Final Problem") there were only the two: the Professor and James, his brother.  They must have had a father at some point.

 

We've moved away from the Canon if we have only one Moriarty who is not a Professor.  There is wider canonical history that says Professor Moriarty  was a mathematics professor and taught the young Holmes.  Mofftiss has said everything is Canon, including all the other movies and materials, not just Doyle.  So, much is possible in future, like finding the real Professor Moriarty.  (Professor Moriarty: Out of the Shadows)

 

Sherlock does seem to lay down his life for his friends , just as Moriarty seems to kill himself , but thats not quite true is it? .

Both were magic tricks , manipulations of Sherlocks. Both noble ( ish ) and extremely cruel at the same time .

 

I don't see anything even faintly noble in Moriarty's death.   He wanted to die all along, it was his problem.  He had to finish his business with Sherlock first.  Moriarty is the actual psychopath, remorseless.   Sherlock also shows a disregard for his own life from the first episode.  But Sherlock chooses to live.  Life takes balls.

 

Religion is ~ not my area  ~ so no offence ~  but I do lol @ the Brilliant way Mofftis mock it via Sherlock here, humanity cannot be split simply into good and evil .

 

Moffat, who does know quite a lot about religion, isn't mocking anything.  Religions do not split humanity into "good and bad."  The world is divided up into more than good people and Death Eaters, after all.  In fact, as most of the religious symbols are simply cultural memes, but are also Christian, one of the the most basic tenets of Christian theology is: "No one is good, not one.  Only God is good."   Every one is flawed and in need of reconciliation.  That which we do that is good, comes from love.

 

How is Sherlock changed?  Through love.  How is Sherlock reconciled?  Through forgiveness.  These themes hardly mock religion, but instead, illustrate the most basic precepts of religions.

 

There is no right or wrong things are more complex.

 

This would be a statement completely antithetical to the character of Sherlock Holmes as created by Arthur Conan Doyle and which Mofftiss have stated they are determined to present accurately.  Few characters in literature take a firmer stand on  ethical and moral issues than Sherlock Holmes. 

 

There is always a right or wrong choice, it is the determination in circumstance of which is which that can be so difficult.  In the end, we often get it wrong even with the best of intentions.  Hence, we have Purgatory.

[IQ192]

Whoa.,..

 

Ok the only evidence for a moriarty cabbie family feud from the show is a pair of graffiti wings,,,, ???? the cabbie describes Moriarty as Sherlocks fan. So why a " fan "

Hard to write off the whole convo as lies ...even sh's deductions.

How is it possible to stick to canon and bring all the things from outside canon in , at the same time ??? - soz can't quote use iphone btw. :-)

There are two Moriarty's in canon, but it was a mistake, so they will make one too?

They covered from start to Reichenback in only six shows. Putting all the other stuff in now from b4 idk how.Even in casebook scenario can't be moriarty.maybe a bro but why?,idk they covered the hard parts time for fun now - moffy said m was dead @loooking fward @ new villains.The other M , mycrofts man ?

Lol@nobility in moriarty no, Sherlocks actions here, he takes on/out the bad guy so that's kinda noble , but both bad / cruel too , talking ppl into suicide, playing at death games & faking suicide for your friends is bad isn't it ?

Like jumping was brave , but it is as easy to say sherlock risked his friends by faking it, ( he almost got caught out )

As it is to say he saved his friends by jumping ,,, its both.

To be 100% sure he would of had to jump for real?

I don't see a changed sherlock

Coming .He doesn't in canon, doesn't he walk away from a murderer one time saying " I see no crime here . Only justice." He decides the morals and yes he is a strong character , he won't conform to even the law.

In this one,,,,he repeatedly says "I'l just be myself " refusing to change at all.

Sure John loves and forgives him, but it is reciprocated ?

Doyle said somthink like Sh was as likely to love as a babbage machine.

Sherlock obv cares about John, but kinda the exception prooving the rule.

Rem Sh & Mycroft talking about sentiment , and what is wrong with us.

 

Obviously Moffat is a genius and knows everything. I <3 him.

You say religion isn't about splitting people into good/bad? Uh , that's what it does thô within the context of the good v evil fight for soul theme mofftis use here.

Other ideas / thoughts on it not really relevant.

Maybe the word mock is strong , idk . For me Sherlock tricks,beats,outplays,outfoxes and makes idiots, thus mocking ? Of both sides.

Beating angel@devil figures at their own game is very funny . Mocking religion idk but

There's cartoons.... :-)

 

The hypocrisy of people who thnk they can say this is always right and this is always wrong is the whole thing/meaning.

You can't. That's the point , and also a funny poke @ modern beliefs and societies.very lol @ Spot on I think.

The war for peace paradox.

Is murder right ? Is killing yourself in front of your best friend right ? Is stealing right?Is lieing right?........according to SH the answer is ....sometimes. That's what I mean by , there is no right or wrong. Sherlock takes the things we think should be Wrong! And makes us think Ah good job!

I don't get that being anti anything , but very in canon/character.

The good/bad right/wrong debate is mankinds biggest unsolvable.Always has been , but in TRF ,SH solves the casè he does them both /all / sametime. He is doing good by being bad & vice versa.

That's the biggest lol/mock/brilliant bit of it for me.

 

:-)

[Julia Mae]

Ok the only evidence for a moriarty cabbie family feud from the show is a pair of graffiti wings,,,, ???? the cabbie describes Moriarty as Sherlocks fan. So why a " fan "

Hard to write off the whole convo as lies ...even sh's deductions.

How is it possible to stick to canon and bring all the things from outside canon in , at the same time ??? - soz can't quote use iphone btw. :-)

There are two Moriarty's in canon, but it was a mistake, so they will make one too?

 

Two pair of wings.  One on the shirt of the killer cabbie's son.  As I said, I think "fan" is a bit of sarcasm.  I did not suggest writing off the whole conversation as lies. But you cannot depend of what he says as being perfectly factual, either.

 

But it might be a good idea for you to read the Doyle Canon.   (You can read them free online, there is a link on my blog page - on the left somewhere) It makes it more fun to watch the show and gives us some nice hints. 

 

If you had, you'd know there were always two Moriartys, and it wasn't a mistake.  Only Doyle using the name "James" for both was an error.   But then, the stories were ten years apart, so we can see why he might forget.  Professor Moriarty was Sherlock Holmes nemesis and the instrument by which Doyle killed Holmes at the Reichenbach Falls.  Colonel James Moriarty was his brother.

 

Obviously Mofftiss don't stick religiously to the CD Canon.  The deerstalker hat isn't part of the original Canon, after all, and they love that thing!  Irene Adler wasn't a hooker, either.  Yet, there are fun similarities in the modern and the original.

[IQ192]

lol@thanks but i have read the canon quite a few times over the years.....

Looks like a purple dragon and a manga style kid on the t shirt to me , but hmmmm maybeeeee.

As I understood it the name mix up happened because ACD liked to write in cafe's and sometimes when they got busy , or it was winter and he had a tipple of brandy in his coffee he got..... Distracted . He had johns wife calling john james too at times tho that was the second wife no one mentions

Maybe we should look into into Mofftiss's drinkng habbits heh .

 

It is obvious @lol Moff@Co are having fun with the legends and fandoms , as u say with the deerstalker , and keeping the ciggies in the skull instead of the tobacco in the slipper... ;-)

Canon wise there are a lot of word plays and similarites but i think they are being careful with it so as not to become predictable , which is why i am hesitant to do it . I loved what they did with hound , but who could of forseen the Dukes pretty opera singer turning into the naked riding crop wielding lesbian dominatrix type . Its the same , but then again it is so not!

 

Personally i hope they dont go back in time to younger Sherlock / Moriarty ...........two reasons , Ben could of course get away with looking like a teenager but omg wouldnt we all feel bad ? and the other , Martin couldn't get away it , and he wouldnt be there!

wierdly if they set up a case book scenario to leave it open for look back cases at the end of series 3 or 4

we have young ish actors agiing irl , while getting younger / staying young on the screen . idk how long they could keep that going at 2 years a series .

Who the hell knows with Mofftis tho , lately i just wanna point at em @shout Trollllll!

[Carol the Dabbler]

It is obvious @lol Moff@Co are having fun with the legends and fandoms , as u say with the deerstalker , and keeping the ciggies in the skull instead of the tobacco in the slipper... ;-)

 

If I may just poke my head into this spirited debate for a moment -- Sherlock apparently hides his ciggies lots of different places -- including the slipper.  At least, he looked in the slipper when he was hunting for 'em in "Hounds."

 

[IQ192]

Heh yea@C , that time John had hidden them and Sherlock cldn,t find , later John throws thm@him .

 

Been wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the moment Sherlock asked John to look at the stars ? Do you think he was looking at the neck/height angles when John was looking up.......or something more ?

 

Also when they are in cuffs by the police car , a call over the radio , all units to area 27 ? all units respond....or similar...got all the polices attention for a moment giving SH/J the chance for escape . Mycrofts doing ?

or Moriarty maybe ? or something happening for real .... i tried to find out what the radio code meant but idk there isnt a uk one ,,,, could b a kidnap / hostage in the usa tho which is interesting.......ideas anyone ?

 

 

 

btw can anyone /point me at an admin or make me an adult......ty >.>

[Julia Mae]

Also when they are in cuffs by the police car , a call over the radio , all units to area 27 ? all units respond....or similar...got all the polices attention for a moment giving SH/J the chance for escape . Mycrofts doing ?

 

 

 

btw can anyone /point me at an admin or make me an adult......ty >.>

 

I don't know about John looking up at the stars, but I think the radio call is a good catch and if it was a set-up,  my vote is on Mycroft.  

 

The "area 27" may very well just be made-up and have nothing to do with anything the actual police use.  In the US, I can tell you as a former cop, these kinds of designations change with jurisdictions.  That can be within metro areas, not just state to state or Federal vs local.

 

As for someone making you a grown-up, I've been looking for someone to do that for me for years now, but alas... 

 

...no luck.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

You'll need to send a private message to one of the Admins (Undead Medic or Banshee) for that.  See this thread for details.

 

No guarantees that you'll stop giggling, though!

[IQ192]

heh ok @TY@Carol...

 

On the radio i think maybe it is Mycroft , does seem to indicate him keeping an eye on things / having a man in the inside/area maybe.

I considered the US codes with SH in Florida with Mrs H in mind , thinking he would know them .

Would be amusing if area 27 turned out to be Baker St. area tho , or if it was St Barts , an indication it was time for what happened next maybe .

Still likely coincidence.

 

 

BytheBy . Have added a short edit. addition @first post on why /themes , if interested . <3

[Alex the Dabbler]

Why would Andrew Scott be in the Series 3 cast if Moriarty is dead?  I know he was supposed to film some additional scenes at Bart's, but this article makes him sound like a cast regular for Series 3 and maybe beyond.  I also think that Moffat & Gatiss wanted Scott back, especially after he won the BAFTA last year.

 

Based on what Moffat said at Comic Con, they were just filming scenes with Andrew Scott to fill in the back story for The Empty Hearse and Moriarty is indeed dead.

 

 

I guess Magnussen is the primary series 3 villain.

 

 

[Julia Mae]

 

Why would Andrew Scott be in the Series 3 cast if Moriarty is dead?  I know he was supposed to film some additional scenes at Bart's, but this article makes him sound like a cast regular for Series 3 and maybe beyond.  I also think that Moffat & Gatiss wanted Scott back, especially after he won the BAFTA last year.

 

Based on what Moffat said at Comic Con, they were just filming scenes with Andrew Scott to fill in the back story for The Empty Hearse and Moriarty is indeed dead.

 

 

I guess Magnussen is the primary series 3 villain.

 

 

 

Yes, they say it and I saw an interview where he said it.  But Moffat also said (or Gatiss?)  anyway - that he was cheaper than a mannequin.  I think you hit on a truth in your post when you said they wanted him back after he won the BAFTA.  I'm willing to bet he does a lot more than lie on the roof and they might have expanded his role in S3E1.  But I imagine he'll be gone for good after that. 

[T.o.b.y]

Wow, too bad I only found this site a few days ago. You guys had an interesting discussion going on here!

 

I like the comment about Sherlock trying to avoid the choice between "good" or "bad", although I got the strong impression that he was going for good...

 

Anyway. I think Moriarty shot himself because somehow Sherlock was able to convince him that he would be able to make him call off the killers, either by force or, more likely, cleverness. The only way to make sure that option was out for Sherlock was to die. And so he did, thinking that at least he had forced Sherlock to die moments later.

 

Moriarty had no real reason to live. That was his great final problem: staying alive. What for? Sherlock was in a similar situation when we met him in A Study in Pink: willing to risk his life just to prove a point, not caring over much if a moment was his last or not. Then John shot the cabbie, and Sherlock must have wondered why and come to the conclusion that obviously his life mattered in some way.

 

 

[Montag]

Moriarty killed himself because it was the only way to win. Moriarty topped himself so if Sherlock didn't die, he would have to live as a fake and a murderer with his friends dead. If he jumped at least his friends were safe. This was Moriartys winning move.

 

However Moriarty didn't know he was being set up by Mycroft and Sherlock (as I think he was) so the jump was to save his friends and allow him to go underground.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

  I'm not sure that Sherlock went up to that roof with the idea that Moriarty would die before the end. Sherlock did figure out that Moriarty was planning to make sure he died and Moriarty gave him the method at that meeting at 221b after the trial. But other then that I don't know what else Sherlock was planning for.

[Montag]

But if Moriarty had been manipulated all the way through then that would be the only way to force a win in his eyes. I don't believe he was going to suicide but their lives had become so inter-linked as soon as Sherlock stepped back from the ledge he had no choice if he still wanted to win.

 

I don't believe Sherlock really believed he could make Moriarty talk, he just had to make him believe he could. That is what the laugh was for. To make Moriarty believe he had found a solution. Sherlock was then in the dominant position in the game. If Moriarty believed that then what other option did he have?

 

If Sherlocks friends all died then some people at least would question f Moriarty was involved, the same if Sherlock was just killed. While the overall narrative was that Sherlock was still a fraud Moriarty needed absolute destruction of Sherlocks reputation to win, he needed to burn it to ashes.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

  I agree with you that Moriarty could not be lying to Sherlock that his friends would be safe if Moriarty's people saw Sherlock jump. As you have said, four dead bodies would not make any sense what so ever except to point to the fact that Sherlock had not been wrong about Moriarty. But even the judge and jury knew that Moriarty was guilty heck, they could come forward about the jury tampering once Moriarty is proven to be dead.  Irene could come back and give testimony that Moriarty was real.

 

  But I think Sherlock reaction when Moriarty did shoot himself that that may not have been totally planned for.

[Ruthyone]

 

Well, due to Moriarty's reincarnation - he may be back in Series 4.......can't wait! 

 

Edited January 25, 2014 by Carol the Dabbler
Please restrict this thread to speculation based on Series 2 -- no Series 3 (or 4) spoilers, please!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Moffat and Gatiss has made it pretty clear that this is not going to be the same Moriarty, if it's a Moriarty at all.

 

[Ruthyone]

Moriarty tribute

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sesW2Deye1k