American Villains -- or Not

[Arcadia]

 !

[Ruthyone]

Jeremy Irons plays a German villain in 'Die Hard WIth A Vengence'

 

[Slithytove]

Rather a late reply but I have only just noticed this topic.

 

I am afraid I haven't really noticed Americans playing baddies in British productions but I have noticed the reverse, probably because we all have our own cultural bias. I'd like to point out that, when a British actor is cast as a villain, it is usually someone with an upper class accent. Benedict himself, as Khan, is a prime example but there is also Alan Rickman in Robin Hood, Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs, Ralph Fiennes in Schindler's List, Jeremy Irons (he was even the evil lion in the Lion King!), Peter Cushing in Star Wars....Terence Stamp, who comes from a less privileged background, did play General Zog in a Superman film but I suspect he did it in a posh accent. I think Robert Carlyle has played a few Hollywood villains too, but I don't know if he used his strong Glaswegian accent when playing those roles.

 

So, in general, I would say it isn't enough to be British to be a bad guy. You really need to be British and posh.

[T.o.b.y]

Maybe that's why I so often find the villains more compelling than the heroes in movies - I cannot resist British English, especially when spoken by a handsome man in a tuneful voice (the precise dialect is of no importance, I enjoy Eliza Doolittle's father just as much as Mr Higgins... and for those of you who are familiar with Are You Being Served, I have a special liking for Mr Harmon, too)

 

I guess there is a general tendency to make villains foreign. Maybe the filmmakers think they are more scary that way, since we tend to be most afraid of the unfamiliar. And it seems there are fads as to what nationality is the best suited for "evil". A while ago, it was the Russians. Germans are of course always popular; the French are another option for everybody but the French and the British and Americans seem to take it out on each other.

 

I'm for more British - and while they're at it, they should hire one as the hero, too - preferably an attractive specimen...

[Carol the Dabbler]

... when a British actor is cast as a villain, it is usually someone with an upper class accent. Benedict himself, as Khan, is a prime example but there is also Alan Rickman in Robin Hood, Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs, Ralph Fiennes in Schindler's List, Jeremy Irons (he was even the evil lion in the Lion King!), Peter Cushing in Star Wars....Terence Stamp, who comes from a less privileged background, did play General Zog in a Superman film but I suspect he did it in a posh accent. I think Robert Carlyle has played a few Hollywood villains too....

 

 

While I agree that there have been some terrific British villains, I don't think it's exactly fair to point to a Robin Hood film as an example.     Historically, I suppose the Nottingham villains would have been Norman-French, but it might be hard to find an actor who could do that accent -- so everyone seems to settle for British -- or more precisely, English.

 

One of my favorite British villains is from an earlier Star Trek movie, Malcolm McDowell as the obsessed Dr. Soran in Generations.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think I just noticed a different-but-related trend in Sherlock -- most of the villains seem to be English (as might be expected in London), but the really, really bad ones are not -- Jim Moriarty is Irish and C. A. Magnussen is apparently Scandinavian.

 

So what do we make of this:

 

Your accent is currently English but I suspect you are not.

 

[Caya]

Don't forget the CIA agent that fell out of the window. Threatening to shoot John and hitting Mrs Hudson earns him a place among the villains, no matter his badge, and Sherlock even makes fun of his accent when he approaches the plane.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Right, there have definitely been some non-English villains, antagonists, opponents, etc. -- in fact, more than I thought, now that I'm checking IMDb and compiling lists (instead of just working off the top of my head):

 

English

ASiP: Jeff the cabbie (though American in canon)

TGG: Kenny Prince (if he was in on it)

TGG: Mrs. (and presumably Mr.) Ian Monkford

TGG: Mr. Ewart of Janus Cars

TGG: Joe Harrison (Westie's fiancee's brother)

ASiB: Irene Adler (though American in canon)

THoB: Dr. Bob Frankland

TEH: Lord Moran the Big Rat

TSo3: Jonathan Small the photographer

 

Non-English

TBB: General Shan & minions

TGG: Raoul Santos the houseboy (presumably Spanish or Latin American)

TGG: Oscar Dzundza the Golem

TGG: Miss Wenceslas of the Hickman Gallery

TGG: Jim Moriarty

ASiB: Neilson the CIA agent

TRF: Various snipers

HLV: Charles Augustus Magnussen (ne Milverton)

 

Any additions?  Deletions? Corrections?

 

I am surprised to see that the non-English list is about as long as the English list -- but the non-English list does include the two major baddies to date, while the English list includes a couple of canon American characters who have been made English in Sherlock (because they're not bad enough to be foreign?).

 

[jesskayding]

You know I always do a yeah right laugh at that scene when American CIA agents bust in on Sherlock while he's trying to get into the Woman's safe. Why the main CIA agent is smacking gum. Ha! Yeah right. That had to be a British actor portraying an American, he spoke super nasally.

 

The second encounter they beat up that sweet woman

Mrs. Hudson... There's blood on the ring of the agent suggesting he either punched or back handed her. Ha! Yeah right

 

But I'm used to it. A lot of countries portray Americans as arrogant, rude, in titled.. Not that we don't give other nationalities reasons to hate us. Generally (the majority of us now know this is untrue) we believe the American way is the only way & the right way for everything.

 

However the world of entertainment can tend to exaggerate.

[Carol the Dabbler]

You know I always do a yeah right laugh at that scene when American CIA agents bust in on Sherlock while he's trying to get into the Woman's safe. Why the main CIA agent is smacking gum. Ha! Yeah right. That had to be a British actor portraying an American, he spoke super nasally.

 

That's what I assumed too, but --

 

... to correct the OP the actor playing the CIA agent is an american.

 

Thanks for pointing that out, shoot999.  I believe the episode commentary says something to the effect that the actor "has made a career of playing Americans" -- which I took to mean that he is merely pretending -- but IMDb says:

 

Todd Boyce was born in Columbus, Ohio.  He was raised in upstate New York, Germany, Chicago and Brazil. At age 16 Todd moved with his family to Australia ....

 

Todd has worked extensively in film, television and theatre in Australia, America and in the United Kingdom. His work continues to take him all over the world.

 

I have corrected my original post.

 

Some Americans do have a nasal accent, mostly people from the northern tier of states -- and note that Boyce has lived in upstate New York and Chicago.

 

[jesskayding]

Yeah... @ age 16. That man is straight up Australian @ this point.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Some people don't change their accents after their teens, though.  I've known people from other countries who have been in the US for decades, yet still have their original accents.  I suppose their accents may have moderated a bit over the years, but they're still very distinctive and identifiable.

 

In any case, the accent Boyce uses in "Scandal" sounds to Alex and me like a Northern Tier accent (and we've both lived in Upstate NY), so when he plays Americans, he seems to be using his memories of Upstate and Chicago accents.  It'd be interesting to find a video of him being interviewed (as himself).  That might give us a better idea of his current accent -- though considering his background and career, he may well be something of a chameleon.

 

[jesskayding]

I still feel the portrayal is really exaggerated. He was smacking that gum like a cow chewing curd. All while trying to obtain information that could compromise his Nations security & safety. That's professional.

 

However I think all nations have a particular perspective about other nationalities. What's it called... Stereotypes.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I am not disputing that the character is, shall we say, strongly drawn.      And British stereotypes of Americans surely have something to do with that -- any time a British writer wants to create a "realistic" American character, he's bound to draw on stereotypes to some extent, especially if he's never spent much time in the US and/or if he's mostly spent time in Hollywood.

 

As to how realistic Neilson might actually be, I'm glad to say that I have no idea, having never knowingly met even one CIA agent, let alone enough of them to develop any idea of what a typical agent is like.

 

[Arcadia]

He's not like any of the ones I've met, but I don't think any of them were field agents. Well ... that I know of.

[jesskayding]

Now it seems that Brits & Australians are the hot thing in American television. They have american accents for the shows. I never pick up the accent until they pop up on the Jimmy Fallon show.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I am constantly amazed by actors who can do real-sounding accents, be they British actors doing American accents, or vice versa, or something else.  It's been done for ages, of course (though not always well), but I believe you're right, it seems to be a growing trend.

 

Did you happen to catch Martin Freeman in Fargo?

 

[Arcadia]

Now it seems that Brits & Australians are the hot thing in American television. They have american accents for the shows. I never pick up the accent until they pop up on the Jimmy Fallon show.

The Washington Post ran an article about this awhile back. They maintained ... and I have no idea if this is accurate or not ... that there were 2 main reasons; British actors are better trained, and they cost a lot less.

[jesskayding]

Well that would explain why they take on so many projects. There was an article I read awhile back where it was commented how they didn't understand how Americans put out so many high quality shows.

 

The difference is ( I believe ), American actors for the most part tend to stick to one project when they are in a series. They have their main gig... & get paid really well for it. As a result we have a lot of acting opportunities for up & comming actors for more shows, movies & plays.

[Arcadia]

Yeah, I think some of them are required to sign, like, 5-, 7-year contracts? In case their show becomes a hit.

 

It's nice that the British think Americans make high quality shows. I beg to differ (high production values, maybe, but otherwise pretty run of the mill stuff, imo) --but still, it's nice. My friends and I think the British shows are much better than ours! But then, I guess we only see the cream of the crop over here?? And maybe vice versa?  I know even as a kid I found British humor funnier than American, though. And most of my favorite books were by British authors. I wonder what that says about me.....

[jesskayding]

No. Fargo's on HBO. I don't have cable.

[Arcadia]

Fargo's on FX, actually. I'll bet you can find it online. That's my plan.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I guess we only see the cream of the crop over here?? And maybe vice versa?

 

I think you're right.  I've seen some British tv that was just plain silly, but we don't generally import that kind.

 

No. Fargo's on HBO. I don't have cable.

Fargo's on FX, actually. I'll bet you can find it online. That's my plan.

 

I doubt you'll see it for free any time soon, but it's available as an Amazon download for two bucks per episode (three bucks for hi-def), and a bit cheaper if you buy the whole season at once.  We don't have cable either, so we did the downloads.  And -- finally! -- the DVD or Blu-ray is available for pre-order.

 

[jesskayding]

Is Fargo really good? What's it about? Also I've seen some pretty poorly done British TV. With ridiculously bright lighting. Some of the shows look pretty cartoon-ish. & all the Victorian era shows... Good grief. So I was really shocked with the production of Sherlock. It was ungimmicky British telly.

[Arcadia]

 

... I guess we only see the cream of the crop over here?? And maybe vice versa?

 

I think you're right.  I've seen some British tv that was just plain silly, but we don't generally import that kind.

 

Of course. That only makes sense, now that I've given it some thought.

 

 

Fargo's on FX, actually. I'll bet you can find it online. That's my plan.

 

I doubt you'll see it for free any time soon, but it's available as an Amazon download for two bucks per episode (three bucks for hi-def), and a bit cheaper if you buy the whole season at once.  We don't have cable either, so we did the downloads.  And -- finally! -- the DVD or Blu-ray is available for pre-order.

 

Rats, for some reason I was under the impression it was available on the FX website. Oh well, nothing I can do about it. I'd like to see it just for MF's performance -- the one episode I managed to see, I thought he was brilliant, but then I always do --  but it's not high on my priority list, I'm afraid. Esp. if money's involved. Maybe they'll re-broadcast it some day. (Hopefully, on a night when I'm home for a change ..... )

 

Thanks Carol!