Holmes Senior vs Holmes Junior

[iammoriarty]

Well everybody knows about the childish feud or rivalry that exists between Sherlock and Mycroft. I am particularly fascinated by it.

 

Although they fight which each other, still they care for each other very much as shown in the episodes. Particularly I find Mycroft character really interesting as there is no clarity about him, his job or anything about what started rivalry between him and his brother. I sure hope S3 throws some light on Mycroft's character and reveals more information about him.

 

I Googled Mycroft and read the Wikipedia article pertaining to the character, alas I could not find much of help there too except finding out that he has greater deduction powers than his brothers but he is lazy to use thim and therefore puts his brother to do all the investigative work.

 

I would sure like to discuss his character as well as Sherlock vs Mycroft with you guys!

 

Looking forward to hearing from you sherlocked people.

[T.o.b.y]

Yes, Mycroft is even harder to figure out than Sherlock. And there is a lot less to go on with him. As far as I know, he appears only in two of the original stories ("The Greek Interpreter" and "The Bruce Partington Plans") besides being mentioned in "The Empty House".

 

He did not appear at all in the pilot, so I'm guessing the creative team decided to add him to the cast later, just like Doyle didn't make him up until he had been writing about Holmes for some time.

 

I never found the original Mycroft particularly appealing (to put it mildly). I really like Mark Gatiss' portrayal of the character, though, and the lines they wrote for him are wonderful.

 

We've already speculated about his heart (is he really "the ice man"?) and his ambition elsewhere. As far as I can remember, most people seem to agree with you that underneath his cool exterior, he really does care for his brother (although he may not consider that an advantage). As for how he got to "be the British Government", my pet theory is that he just wanted a quiet, well paid, easy job and then his talents took over.

 

As for the sibling rivalry, my sympathies are with Sherlock all the way. I think Mycroft is infuriating!

[iammoriarty]

I too love his potrayal by Gatiss. He is a very strong character in Sherlock. I can't wait for S3. I have a feeling Mycroft is playing an important role in one of the episodes.

 

After all he is my second favourite character from Sherlock after Moriarty.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I can't wait for S3. I have a feeling Mycroft is playing an important role in one of the episodes.

 

Oh, I do hope you're right!  I'd love to see some clues about what makes him tick.  I think Gatiss's portrayal is just delectable (and have a feeling that underneath it all, his Mycroft is a real softie).

 

[T.o.b.y]

After all he is my second favourite character from Sherlock after Moriarty.

 

You honestly mean to tell me that you prefer Mycroft over Sherlock?!

 

Ahem. I'd better remind myself that I am a responsible adult and everybody has a right to their own likes and dislikes. And I do enjoy it when somebody disagrees with me. So thank you for stating your very interesting opinion.

But: Why on earth would anybody like Mycroft better than his brother? Why?

[Carol the Dabbler]

But: Why on earth would anybody like Mycroft better than his brother? Why?

 

Well, I must say if I had to choose one or the other of the Holmes brothers to have lunch with -- but Sherlock doesn't do lunch, does he?  So it'd have to be Mycroft.

 

QED 

 

[Janie]

I think that neither of them would be a good company for lunch. Sherlock wouldn't even bother to talk to anyone less intelligent than himself and Mycroft would have more important things to do, like sitting in the Diogenes club and reading papers, probably. 

[T.o.b.y]

If Sherlock never spoke to people who were less intelligent, he'd be a lot more silent than we've seen him to date - but I see what you mean.

 

Oh no, the idea of sharing a meal with the Holmes brothers... I think you have to be John Watson to stand that. It would be a lot of fun as a spectator, I guess.

[Karie]

It's funny, because I'm just (literally, right this second) re-watching ASIB, and I just googled a line of Mycroft's in the Palace scene that I never could make out. He says,"I'll be Mother", which the internet tells me is a British phrase for "I'll pour the tea", and Sherlock jumps in with,"An entire childhood, in a nutshell." 

 

So I'm suddenly struck with this image of Mycroft constantly babying Sherlock, running behind him, checking up on him... and my entire perception of him has changed. I mean, I always did get the idea that he looked out for Sherlock (or, at least, attempted to do damage control for his rambunctious younger brother). But now, I'm picturing absentee parents and Mycroft doing a lot of hand-holding. Which, to a child who was probably stubbornly independent from a very early age, that would have been increasingly frustrating. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yes, those lines are a major clue!

 

Some of us have been conjecturing that Papa Holmes had left the family early in Sherlock's life and that Mycroft (as the eldest son) therefore felt obliged to be the "man of the house."  This may explain why they've mentioned only "Mummy" so far, and why Mycroft is such a mother hen.  And so forth.

 

[Karie]

I just typed two whole paragraphs and the internet ate it.  Ugh!

 

Basically, what I said (more eloquently than I'm going to bother with this time), was that I also think Papa was either absent or a present jerk, and that I lean toward the notion that he was around but was ashamed of his "problem" child. Not much place in the aristocracy for a mouthy, freak of a kid. Sherlock may have even had a "professional" diagnosis (which may or may not have been accurate), and his father didn't want him around, so Sherlock was sent away a lot and kept out of sight. Leaving Mycroft to play Daddy. 

 

I also get the impression, from the line "You know how it upset Mummy", that Mrs. Holmes was a wilting violet who was very fragile and easily upset. Probably spent a lot of time fretting over the upset caused by Sherlock, and more so her husband (maybe he had a bit of a temper). (Sherlock's insistence of "I'm not the one who upset her, Mycroft!") She maybe spent most of her time whimpering, fretting, trying to calm her husband, and trying to keep hold of her airs and graces in front of her posh, socialite friends. Leaving little time for her to actually coddle or be much of a mother to her youngest, and leaving Mycroft to play Mummy as well. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I do hope we'll get more clues in S3!

 

By the way, next time the internet eats your post, see if your "auto save" has kept it for you.  I have no idea whether this is strictly a forum feature or some kind of collaboration between the forum and the individual browser (in which case it may not work the same for everyone) -- but here's what I see:

 

Once I've been working on a post for a while (about a minute?) there's a notation in the left-bottom border of the edit box that says (at present) "Last auto saved 9:12:05 PM."  This is updated every so often, and seems to be saved on the forum server, though I could be wrong about that.  At any rate, if my post gets eaten, I check to see if the auto save has it.  Even if I have to reload that thread, I just activate the edit box by clicking in it, and then wait a short while.  I'll generally get a notation down there in the corner of the edit box saying something like "Restore auto saved material."  I click on that and a little box comes up showing what's been saved (and I fuss over my posts long enough that it's usually saved it all, though it's sometimes a bit behind), and then I click on the appropriate button ("restore" or something of the sort), and voila!

 

[T.o.b.y]

I do hope we'll get more clues in S3!

 

Clues - yes, I hope so too. But I'm not sure it would be a good idea to do a lot of flashback scenes or use other methods of explaining much about their background. A certain element of mystery is essential for the "Holmes boys". And it is so much fun to speculate on them.

 

Mycroft certainly brings out the childish side of his younger brother. He doesn't even have to show up in person, apparently, it seems to be enough for just his underlings to be around to throw Sherlock into a behavioral range between three and thirteen years old (some would probably tell me that's where he always is...).

 

I love to see Sherlock annoy him. That's a great moment in Hounds, where he calls Mycroft and coos "hello brother dear" into the phone.

 

Speaking of Baskerville, how come it took them over twenty minutes there to realize that the two look nothing like each other?

[Karie]

I do hope we'll get more clues in S3!

 

By the way, next time the internet eats your post, see if your "auto save" has kept it for you.  I have no idea whether this is strictly a forum feature or some kind of collaboration between the forum and the individual browser (in which case it may not work the same for everyone) -- but here's what I see:

 

Once I've been working on a post for a while (about a minute?) there's a notation in the left-bottom border of the edit box that says (at present) "Last auto saved 9:12:05 PM."  This is updated every so often, and seems to be saved on the forum server, though I could be wrong about that.  At any rate, if my post gets eaten, I check to see if the auto save has it.  Even if I have to reload that thread, I just activate the edit box by clicking in it, and then wait a short while.  I'll generally get a notation down there in the corner of the edit box saying something like "Restore auto saved material."  I click on that and a little box comes up showing what's been saved (and I fuss over my posts long enough that it's usually saved it all, though it's sometimes a bit behind), and then I click on the appropriate button ("restore" or something of the sort), and voila!

 

 

Thank you!!! I will definitely keep that in mind the next time it happens, because it happens to me a lot!  

 

 

I do hope we'll get more clues in S3!

 

Clues - yes, I hope so too. But I'm not sure it would be a good idea to do a lot of flashback scenes or use other methods of explaining much about their background. A certain element of mystery is essential for the "Holmes boys". And it is so much fun to speculate on them.

 

Mycroft certainly brings out the childish side of his younger brother. He doesn't even have to show up in person, apparently, it seems to be enough for just his underlings to be around to throw Sherlock into a behavioral range between three and thirteen years old (some would probably tell me that's where he always is...).

 

I love to see Sherlock annoy him. That's a great moment in Hounds, where he calls Mycroft and coos "hello brother dear" into the phone.

 

Speaking of Baskerville, how come it took them over twenty minutes there to realize that the two look nothing like each other?

 

 

Yes, he does bring out the child in Sherlock. It's always interesting to see. The bit with him refusing to put on his clothes to go to Buckingham Palace was very akin to a three year old refusing to put on his clothes after a bath because he doesn't want to go to daycare, and running around the house naked, throwing  a fit.  Mycroft, for the most part, never really stoops to the toddler level, but more often reverts to the exasperated parent figure. I guess the two are stuck in an eternal game of tantrum-tot and wits-end parent, and often revert back to this state. Certainly paints a vivid picture of what life must have been like when they lived under the same roof. 

[iammoriarty]

Umm -- Karie. Thanks, You threw so much light needed on the topic. I have to start googling lines too now.

 

And as for Lunch, I would prefer food than the Holmes brothers.

 

I think Toby and me are not going to be agreeing much on anything

 

I like mysterious characters. Mycroft is too mysterious. Sherlock naah

[Carol the Dabbler]

And as for Lunch, I would prefer food than the Holmes brothers.

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

I think Toby and me are not going to be agreeing much on anything

 

 

Great! Then we can have heated discussions - the voices of reason will stop us before we do each other any real harm...

 

You still haven't told me why in the world you prefer Mycroft to his brother. Or is it one of those "I don't know, I just do" things? (Which is fine, by the way.)

[Karie]

Umm -- Karie. Thanks, You threw so much light needed on the topic. I have to start googling lines too now.

 

And as for Lunch, I would prefer food than the Holmes brothers.

 

I think Toby and me are not going to be agreeing much on anything

 

I like mysterious characters. Mycroft is too mysterious. Sherlock naah

 

It helps! I just googled the whole Vatican Cameos thing. Obviously, Sherlock was warning John to duck, but I wondered why that phrase was significant. Upon looking it up, I now know that Vatican Cameos was a code word used in the military to warn soldiers to duck out of the line of fire when an armed, non-military person entered the camp, and the assumption is that Sherlock chose the phrase because he knew John, being a military man, would recognize it and know to duck (refer to bakerstreet.wikia.com). 

 

I'm not ashamed to admit that I have to google a lot of the Britishisms on the show (and other British shows I watch) to make them make sense in context. That "I'll be Mother" one had me scratching my head! LOL 

[iammoriarty]

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You still haven't told me why in the world you prefer Mycroft to his brother. Or is it one of those "I don't know, I just do" things? (Which is fine, by the way.)

Well, Mycroft over Sherlock because well the character is amazing, Quite powerful in the show. One thing I especially love about Mycroft is that he can succesfully make Sherlock go nuts if he wants to. Sherlock is a big show off after all. Somebody setting him right is good to watch. I am sure John likes it too.

 

Plus, he has got swag. After all 'he is the British government'.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I just googled the whole Vatican Cameos thing. Obviously, Sherlock was warning John to duck, but I wondered why that phrase was significant. Upon looking it up, I now know that Vatican Cameos was a code word used in the military to warn soldiers to duck out of the line of fire when an armed, non-military person entered the camp, and the assumption is that Sherlock chose the phrase because he knew John, being a military man, would recognize it and know to duck (refer to bakerstreet.wikia.com). 

 

The internet is a wondrous thing, making all manner of information available in a moment.  Unfortunately, "all manner" sometimes includes false or extraneous information, so one must read cautiously.

 

Note that in this case, the Baker Street Wikia immediately follows up the explanation you quote by adding:

 

This theory has not, unfortunately, been corroborated by any outside sources.

 

It is certainly, however, a reference to an unknown case Sir Arthur Conan Doyle briefly mentioned during the original The Hound of the Baskervilles where it says "I was exceedingly preoccupied by that little affair of the Vatican cameos, and in my anxiety to oblige the Pope I lost touch with several interesting English cases."

 

Since the term "Vatican cameos" appears in an original Conan Doyle story (written well before WWII, by the way), I assume that is why Moffat used it as a code word between Sherlock and John.  Presumably, it's supposed to be a reference to a previous case of theirs, wherein there was a similar booby trap.

 

I would take the WWII explanation with a large grain of salt.  The Baker Street Wikia credits the Urban Dictionary as its source for that, but even that Urban Dictionary page also lists two other explanations of the term (including the Conan Doyle reference).  And a moderator on another Sherlock-related forum posted this a few months ago:

 

Well, I've just done an hour's research on this. I can find the use of the term Vatican Cameos as a code word used by the British Army in World War Two on lots of Tumblr pages. However, despite my very best efforts (as an Historian) I have been unable to find any other reference to it, at all, on any other reliable military source. I have a nasty suspicion that this is Tumblr generated (like kittens and jam and such like) and has no basis in fact.

 

Sorry about that! 

 

[T.o.b.y]

Sibling trouble is one of the many things Sherlock and John have in common. Neither will go to his closest relative for help.

 

They give me the impression of becoming (surrogate) brothers rather than lovers - probably the main reason why I think the idea of them having sex is kind of strange.

 

I wonder whether we'll see Harry Watson in the next series (at the wedding, for example). I might like her. A drinking problem, a failed relationship... sounds like my kind of person (at least in fiction)

 

 

[Karie]

My own personal head canon is going to be that the "Vatican Cameos" line was specifically because of John's military career. It makes me smile!  

 

One of the things that I find consistent (and lovely) about Mycroft, is that he does seem to genuinely worry about how things will affect Sherlock. 

 

He was so concerned over having to lie about Irene's death (and probably worried Sherlock would see through it), that he was driven to smoke, which he doesn't do often. 

 

He was worried that Sherlock would revert to drug use and wanted John to stay with him.

 

He wanted John and Sherlock to know that he was sorry for telling Moriarty about Sherlock's life.

 

He was regretful for putting Irene in Sherlock's path and setting him up for heartache. 

 

This is a big reason why Mycroft is one of my favorite characters. And I absolutely love Gatiss' portrayal! 

[Carol the Dabbler]

He wanted John and Sherlock to know that he was sorry for telling Moriarty about Sherlock's life.

 

And I absolutely love Gatiss' portrayal! 

 

I too think Mycroft is a sweetie at heart! 

 

However, when he says "I'm sorry" to John in "Reichenbach," I think he actually means "I'm sorry to be lying to you, and sorry that Sherlock and I have to keep you in the dark about what's really going on, and really, really sorry that you're going to think your best friend is dead, because you're a good fellow, and you don't deserve that, but I see no alternative."

 

[T.o.b.y]

Ugh, do you really think the whole thing was planned so far in advance by the Holmes brothers jointly? Oh please no. Please, dear Messrs. Gatiss, Moffat, everybody else involved, I know you're all done and it's too late but if you wrote it that way can you please, please, please change it anyway? I think that would be awful! I would much prefer Mycroft to really have been taken in by the whole code myth and to really have betrayed Sherlock to Moriarty, at least a bit. Please?

 

I do see your point that it is a little unbelievable a man as intelligent and as concerned about his brother as Mycroft is would act like that. You're probably right. It's just that, in my case, if what they let John believe is a lie, it is preferable to the truth...

[Janie]

I agree with Carol. I really hope that Mycroft was somehow involved in Sherlock's "death". He cares for him and it seems very unlikely that he would have betrayed him like that.