Sir Ian McKellen as "Mr. Holmes"

[greencat1999]

Perfect! I do, indeed, enjoy the books so this is definitely a good sign! :D

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I went, I saw, I liked. Don't know if I will get the opportunity to catch it again on the big screen but would like to. Poor Shelock,

would the tryst saved her or would the guilt of it have compounded her depression and not changed the outcome one iota?

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear Fox, it was never a matter of a tryst. The whole conversation centred around loneliness, his through sheer force of intellect and mind-over-matter, and hers through the loss of everything she had believed in and held dear. She asked him to share their loneliness, but both as the world's only consulting detective, then and now, and as an upright subject of the British Empire he could not accede to her request, so he thought that by gently pushing her back to her husband he was saving her from ultimate destruction. But it was not to be.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I more than understand all of that. But he blamed himself for not doing enough but in all honesty and 2020 hind sight it may not have changed anything. He imposed self exile for something that was, in all likelihood, not his fault at all. 

[Inge l-w]

I absolutely agree that her ultimate decision was not his fault, but he says himself that by deducing the reason behind her loneliness and rejecting her plea, he freed her to do as she thought fit, and that's why he fell into one of his black moods, and went to Sussex as a penance for his failure: the failure was that he didn't reunite the couple.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

i don't see that as his failure. She was suffering from postpartum depression. 10 to 15% of women going through this usually end up as a suicide. Plus, this was England. As a woman she was expected to keep hearth and home and raise a family, children were expected and as a barren woman, she was not fulling her duties as a wife. which would also add to her depression and if her husband was in denial that she was suffering mentally as well emotionally, as he seemed to be, what hope of treatment did she have? That certainly wasn't Sherlock's area of expertise so he is not to blame either.

[Arcadia]

In any case, the "failure" wasn't  not reuniting the couple, imo -- it was not recognizing that she still had (as she thought) no reason to live. He thought he'd saved her, but he didn't. Whether it was because he couldn't give enough of himself, or because he didn't realize she still intended to die, I can't decide. Either way, he wouldn't be legally responsible, but I can see how his belief in himself might be shaken by something like that.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh he made it clear that he felt responsible and yes, it might have been a natural response. Holmes having as big a heart as he really had. And what happened happened and how Holmes reacted, he felt justified.....I guess it's one of those pelting popcorn at the screen moments. It wasn't your fault, idiot! Get back to work!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Plus her husband was a real dick-head.  Remember how he

 

criticized his wife for grieving over her miscarriages "as though they'd been real children"?

 

I heartily second the look Mrs. Hudson gave him then!

 

[Inge l-w]

You have to see things in their historical context. In the Georgian era (the case took place right after the end of the Great War), expectant fathers were banished to other parts of the house until the whole messy business was over with, and mother and child made presentable for the new dads to be permitted to see their wives and newborns.

Also, the C of E didn't even allow proper burials for stillborn children, much less miscarried foetuses, which, if she had been rushed to hospital, might have ended up in preservation fluid for medical experiments, otherwise they were burnt along with other hazardous hospital waste. In fact, the only glaring historical inaccuracy is the headstones on either side of her. Far from being a dickhead, the poor man tried (and I don't know how he succeeded) to carry out his wife's wishes, sadly after the fact.

[Arcadia]

She'd already arranged for the headstones herself, hadn't she? So maybe whoever she made that deal with put them in place -- not that the husband couldn't have later intervened, I suppose.

[greencat1999]

I finally saw the movie yesterday... What a beautiful rendition. I love how it broke the mold whilst staying true to what the character holds dear and staying consistent through his actions. I was surprised that I was able to stay strong for most of the movie but lost it when something happened... (testing out the spoiler bar below. Not very good with the forum options yet and don't want to spoil anything so I guess I'll see if it worked after I post.)

 

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

She'd already arranged for the headstones herself, hadn't she? So maybe whoever she made that deal with put them in place -- not that the husband couldn't have later intervened, I suppose.

 

Yes, as I recall, her husband said she'd made arrangements for memorial stones for the two babies (even though their bodies weren't buried) and for herself.  So all he had to do was basically not interfere.

 

Inge, I'm sure you're right about the historical context, and he was presumably just being a standard-issue Georgian man -- but it's still hard not to think that even if he didn't understand her grief, he could have been more sympathetic to her obvious pain.  In an attempt to be fair, I shall downgrade my criticism to "he acted like a real dick-head."  And I'm sure Mrs. Hudson will back me up on that much!

[Inge l-w]

Dear Carol, I absolutely agree that he cannot have been a model husband in the first place, for his wife to have gone to such lengths to act behind his back. You are right: you may remember that he even got on Holmes's nerves when both of them followed her to Madame Schirmer's, and Holmes warned him off by saying that if this thing went on, he was very much afraid one of them would become redundant!

And I think it was not postpartum depression at all, because the last miscarriage seemed to have happened at least a year before she took up her music lessons, from the narration of her husband.

Dear greencat1999, I cannot do spoilers either, so I blurt everything out, ( could all those quizzes of ShadowDweller's be right?) and then one of the kindly, patient moderators fixes it for the rest, if it's any comfort

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

It may not have been postpartum, agreed. But it can set in as soon as three weeks after the birth of a child, or take as long as a year to show up and it can last up to 3 years of more if left untreated, 10 to 15% of those never living so long. And losing two children then being told that she could never bare another.....her mental and emotional state was not in a good place, no matter what kind of depression it was.

[Carol the Dabbler]

There's a thread (here) that tells how to post spoilers.  If you still have questions after reading it, please post your questions there, and a staff member will be glad to answer them for you. 

 

[greencat1999]

 

The fact that Holmes and Watson were estranged hurt my heart as well :'( Just the whole idea that they never got to say goodbye after all that they had been through saddened me.

 

 

I cried pretty hard when Holmes did the circle memorial for Watson, Hudson, Mycroft, and "the boy."

 

What a beautiful way to tie back into Holmes's trip to Japan and the mourner at the blast site.

Edited August 10, 2015 by Arcadia
fixed spoiler box

[Arcadia]

I cried pretty hard when Holmes did the circle memorial for Watson, Hudson, Mycroft, and "the boy."

 

What a beautiful way to tie back into Holmes's trip to Japan and the mourner at the blast site.

Wow, that went right past me! I think I was distracted by the scenery. :D You're right, that was a lovely way to tie the ends of the story together.

 

By the way, when I edited your spoiler box, I noticed there was some code in there that said something like [ code=0 ] and [ /code ]  (I should have paid closer attention to the exact phrasing!) At any rate, after I deleted those, the spoiler box looked the way it was supposed to.

 

Greencat, did your post look okay to you when you added it? Or could you see that the spoiler box looked funny?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I thought the meditation was touching as well.

 

 

I was thinking more of this time In Tibet and spending time with the Dali Lama. No doubt he would have learned meditation there as well.

 

[Inge l-w]

That's all very well and good, but as Carol pointed out above, the boy put the memento in the circle, and Mr Holmes handed it back to him with a "not yet" gesture, so his prayer at the end is only for the dead.

[Redbeard]

Am I the only one who cried when the little "innocent bystander" bee got killed by the poison (spoiler?)  Kidding, but it did make me sad. 

 

Saw this movie last night and I liked it more than I thought I would.  I was hesitant, thinking it would be somewhere between boring and depressing.  My two teenage sons came with me,  I warned them it was not going to be Mission Impossible (lol) but they are Holmes fans so they wanted to come. 

 

We all really, really liked it.  It was slow paced enough to think and savour, but fast paced enough to never be boring.  

 

I enjoyed all the different story threads and how they all tied together and the ending.

 

I couldn't help myself but with every reference to Mrs. Hudson, John, and Mycroft I pictured *our* Mrs. Hudson, John and Mycroft.   

 

I didn't know about Nicholas Rowe until afterwards, but I did wonder why that movie Holmes looked so familiar lol.  That little bit of casting makes me unreasonably happy.  

 

Anyway, I think I am still kind of processing it all, just chiming in to give the movie a thumbs up!

 

And I would also love to see that kid Roger grow up to be a consulting detective, drawing upon everything he learned from the great Sherlock Holmes.  I would pay to see THAT movie too. 

[Arcadia]

And I would also love to see that kid Roger grow up to be a consulting detective, drawing upon everything he learned from the great Sherlock Holmes.  I would pay to see THAT movie too.

Same here, I liked it more than I expected to. And I agree about the kid, that would make a very satisfying movie, to think in some way or other the Holmes line continued.

[Inge l-w]

At least, he makes sure that the boy, and of necessity, his mother, will get the Holmes estate after his death, so the boy can be properly educated and make something of himself later on in life.

Speaking for myself, my Mrs Hudson is Rosalie Williams and my Dr Watson is Edward Hardwicke.

[KirstyThinks]

As I have only read the book and I am yet to see the film I can't comment on the cinematography or how well paced the film is, I found the book to be quite touching. I thought it had a good balance between Holmes' detachment and his buried emotions. Also, I agree with a point made earlier in the thread that I feel Sherlock would want to go down fighting, and that is something I think the book addresses quite well. It articulates Holmes' unique sense of loss in regard to outliving his loved ones and his own feelings of inadequacy at his failing mind; in both intellect and memory. Overall, I'd say even if you have seen the film, the book is worth a read!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks, Kirsty, the book does sound well worth reading.  Apparently it's currently available under two different titles:  the original A Slight Trick of the Mind and the movie-inspired Mr. Holmes.  Think I'd prefer getting the former, since a} that's presumably what the author wanted to call it, b} I think it fits the story better, and c} those older copies may well be in the Half-Price Books stores by now!