His Death Wish

[jesskayding]

Ok so today, I watched TEH again. After Moriarty kills himself.. Sherlocks refers back to the pool scene in TGG, & says "obvious, his death wish."

 

It got me to thinking about when the cabby says you have a fan... Referring to Moriarty.

 

It made me feel that in a since Moriarty sort of represents the Super fan. The ones who truly obsess. The stalker fans... They want to know every single detail about a person. They want to experience every bit of that persons life... Moriarty was the biggest fan of them all! To the point where he wanted to even share the same time & place of Sherlock's death.

 

What do you all say to this?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Goodness -- but you do have a point.  Hopefully the rest of us aren't quite as obsessive as Moriarty!  I felt a bit insulted by the way they portrayed Sherlock's fans in TEH (I do not even own a deerstalker), but at least they all seemed pretty harmless.

 

[jesskayding]

Well have you seen this:

 

 

http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2014-07-20/sherlock-holmes-fans-set-record/

 

 

I dont know that they were too far off!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

It was my take on Moriarty as "fan" was some thing he told the cabbie....but in all reality Moriarty is already trying to solve his "Final Problem". Sherlock is interfering all ready had been since Carl Powers. So Moriarty wants Sherlock out of the way and this was at least the first attempt that we, the audience, is made aware of.

[jesskayding]

Okay, so this is part of the question going off in my brain...

What if the Final Problem to Moriarty is figuring out how he & Sherlock could forever be immortalized together? All of his evil & Sherlocks angelic behaviors from childhood till death. Then Sherlock would belong to him completely. The ultimate Crazy (nutter) fan fantasy!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I'm not sure Moriarty had planned to kill himself on Bart's unless he was going to do it after Sherlock jumped.  Moriarty did bring a gun along. The question is why...unless he carried one regularly. Or maybe if Sherlock didn't jump voluntarily he thought he could force the issue by flashing a gun around?  But then Moriarty knew that Sherlock wasn't adverse to dying if the results warranted it as was shown at the pool.

[jesskayding]

See. Made you think.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Don't I usually?  Think, that is?

[jesskayding]

Yeah. You all are so smart. I wish I could keep up

[Arcadia]

Does anyone else think that Sherlock has a bit of a death wish as well? Not as extreme as Moriarty's, but he seems rather careless with his life.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Not so much a death wish, I think, as that he's willing to risk his life for any number of reasons.

 

A question just occurred to me -- if Sherlock was so readily willing to take the cabbie's pill, why was he so distraught (in the scene with Molly and also right after Moriarty shot himself) about jumping off the roof?  Was it because he felt sure he'd figured out which pill was which?  Was it because he had developed an appreciation for life in the interim?  Or -- ?

 

[jesskayding]

Okay. So I think Sherlock didn't have friends yet in SIP, but in TRF he had friends & life matters now.

 

Sherlock death wish? Hmmm. I think for him is he can't stand being bored. He wants every moment in life to have blood pumping through his viens. He needs excitement

If he's not doing adventurous things, he turns to the "recreational"

[Arcadia]

Not so much a death wish, I think, as that he's willing to risk his life for any number of reasons.

I'm not sure I see the difference! Yeah, okay, I do, that's probably a more accurate way of looking at it.

 

A question just occurred to me -- if Sherlock was so readily willing to take the cabbie's pill, why was he so distraught (in the scene with Molly and also right after Moriarty shot himself) about jumping off the roof?  Was it because he felt sure he'd figured out which pill was which?  Was it because he had developed an appreciation for life in the interim?  Or -- ?

Okay. So I think Sherlock didn't have friends yet in SIP, but in TRF he had friends & life matters now.

 

Sherlock death wish? Hmmm. I think for him is he can't stand being bored. He wants every moment in life to have blood pumping through his viens. He needs excitement

If he's not doing adventurous things, he turns to the "recreational"

Good answers! I forget that some people actually enjoy an adrenaline rush.

[jesskayding]

Yeah, that's why I don't do amusement parks. Hate the feeling of falling, crashing, spinning & sore feet and legs from walking all day.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Actually I don't mind the rush of a carnival ride....it is kind of fun but I'm not a junky by any stretch. But being bored is no cake walk either.  Can't imagine how some people can life with no hobbies what so ever.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hopefully they enjoy their jobs and their home life enough that they truly don't need hobbies.  Most of us seem to benefit from a bit of distraction, though!

 

[jesskayding]

So Moriarty could have still had Sherlock killed in that pool. Especially when he was leaving. He could of left & had the snipers kill S & J. They could have technically shot them on their way to a cab.

 

 

That's why I'm really leaning toward Moriarty wanting to wait.. Till after he played another game with both of the Holmes brothers & then die with Sherlock later.

[Arcadia]

I see your point. Hmmm.... well, it appears it was Irene on the other end of the phone call, and she had something that could help Moriarity, and if Sherlock was needed to decipher her information, then Jim wouldn't gain anything by blowing Sherlock to bits at that point ....

[jesskayding]

Right, so begins his plan to outwit Mycroft. With the use of a high end prostitute & Sherlock. Burn!

[J.P.]

In SIP Sherlock just doesn't care. He feels completely unattached to his life. So it was not difficult to bring him to the edge just by pushing the right buttons. In TRF he grown roots so to say, roots that connect him with other people, and through them - to the world and life.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

In TRF he grown roots so to say, roots that connect him with other people, and through them - to the world and life.

 

 A very good point. And we see more of that and how it effects Sherlock and the people in his world in the 3rd season.

[Boton]

 (Carol the Dabbler): I felt a bit insulted by the way they portrayed Sherlock's fans in TEH (I do not even own a deerstalker), but at least they all seemed pretty harmless.

 

 

I agree that they look like a death frisbee....

 

Okay, so this is part of the question going off in my brain...

What if the Final Problem to Moriarty is figuring out how he & Sherlock could forever be immortalized together? All of his evil & Sherlocks angelic behaviors from childhood till death. Then Sherlock would belong to him completely. The ultimate Crazy (nutter) fan fantasy!

 

I sort of think this is why they eliminated the "I've never had a detective" line from CAM in HLV.  One villain with a Sherlock obsession is enough.  But even so, I don't think it's a conscious insult to actual fans -- I think it is a compelling type of villiain; one who is fascinated by the hero.

 

Not so much a death wish, I think, as that he's willing to risk his life for any number of reasons.

 

A question just occurred to me -- if Sherlock was so readily willing to take the cabbie's pill, why was he so distraught (in the scene with Molly and also right after Moriarty shot himself) about jumping off the roof?  Was it because he felt sure he'd figured out which pill was which?  Was it because he had developed an appreciation for life in the interim?  Or -- ?

 

Months ago, I said I view that last bit of SiP as sort of a 1950s James Dean bad-boy moment for Sherlock, and I still do.  Some people, maybe most people, if they don't experience a lot of death in their lives at an early age, have a period of youth in which they feel immortal.  Sherlock's happened to reach into his thirties.  He would have taken that pill because he was certain of his intellect, and he couldn't die as long as he was in a game of wits.  I think that started to crumble in TGG.

[MainlyFreeMan]

Let's not forget that at the pool Watson attempted to sacrifice his life for Sherlock by taking Moriarty hostage, telling Sherlock to "run" and thus escape. Upon seeing this, Moriarty informed John that he had shown his hand. Think about this statement by Moriarity....he had witnessed that Sherlock had a true friend with self-sacrificing agape love for Sherlock. Therefore Moriarty understood that the little amount of heart that Sherlock possessed could be touched by this friendship, and therefore could be a means by which Moraiarty could "burn the heart out of" Sherlock, by eventually making him choose between suicide and saving the life of his friends. But yes, I am still a bit puzzled by the death wish of Moriarty. But I wouldn't actually call it a death wish. I think Moriarty wasn't planning to kill himself initially. But as he pulled the trigger on the rooftop, I think he had become ambivalent about life or death. In fact, on the rooftop when he told Sherlock "you are me" and "bless you", I think Moriarty was revealing that he was self-deceived into some sort of euphoria about the heights of the cat-and-mouse game he was playing. In other words, his life had reached what he considered the highest possible life achievement: not just to have beaten Sherlock, but to finally fully realize exactly what kind of no-holds-barred genius Sherlock was. To realize that Sherlock was NOT boring or ordinary after all, but truly WAS extraordinary beyond anyone else alive...that Sherlock truly was his equal, and the only opponent worthy of the effort that Moriarty had made to trap him. Moriarty was standing on the top of the mountain, with the satisfaction of having put this person in checkmate who was truly greater than even he had known. He realized that the mouse he had caught was actually the only other cat like himself in existence. And this brought him to tears. I think this is why Moriarty says "you are me" and "bless you" to Sherlock. In a twisted way, Moriarty knew that he was finally understood...that there was someone else like him, who was his equal. And then because he had reached the highest possible height within his value system, nothing else in life would ever give him such a thrill again. Everything else would be pale in comparison, so he was ambivalent about taking his life. He had no problem sacrificing it all to cement the checkmate that he thought would cause Sherlock either to end his life or live the rest of his life in the guilt of having caused the deaths of his truest friends. But he underestimated Sherlock's rigorous planning for every contingency, and in truth ended up killing himself for nothing. It's interesting to consider that Moriarty overlooked that Sherlock's having set the venue of their showdown could mean that Sherlock was surrounded by accomplices and actors who could carry out a staged suicide.

[Carol the Dabbler]

53 minutes ago, MainlyFreeMan said:

Moriarty was standing on the top of the mountain, with the satisfaction of having put this person in checkmate who was truly greater than even he had known. He realized that the mouse he had caught was actually the only other cat like himself in existence. And this brought him to tears. I think this is why Moriarty says "you are me" and "bless you" to Sherlock. In a twisted way, Moriarty knew that he was finally understood...that there was someone else like him, who was his equal. And then because he had reached the highest possible height within his value system, nothing else in life would ever give him such a thrill again.

Yes, that makes perfect sense -- from Moriarty's point of view.

And welcome to Sherlock Forum, MainlyFreeMan!      Looking forward to hearing more from you.