The Language (and travel) Thread

[Carol the Dabbler]

So, Carol says "once burnt, twice shy" and I say "once bitten, twice shy" anyone have any other variants? Is the bitten thing just British or perhaps even a regional variant?

Actually, my version may be the variant. Here are the number of Google hits:

 

bitten: 846K

burnt: 422K

burned: 52K

hurt: 7K

 

However, the statistics for "Once bitten, twice shy" are presumably inflated due to a song by that title. Also, I remember seeing somewhere, "Burnt child fire dreadeth," which sounds like a pretty venerable version of my version.

[aely]

A wardrobe is generally a free standing structure in which clothes are stored - unless it is a walk-in wardrobe, in which case it's in effect a room.

 

A cupboard is a thing with a door that can either be hung on a wall, free standing, or tucked into unused space such as a cupboard under the stairs (which is what Harry Potter lived in), they are not usually very tall thanks to the spaces where they're put. You don't store clothes in a cupboard.

 

I have a cupboard under the stairs in my kitchen, I also have a cupboard at the top of the stairs which really should be called a closet I suppose as it's strictly speaking too big for a cupboard but not big enough to be a room. I call it the library as it has all my outsize books in it that I can't fit on my normal shelves. I also have a space where my hot water cylinder used to live, this was my airing cupboard so called because most houses that had these cylinders used to have racks in there so the heat would 'air' towels, sheets and other stuff like that - things that took a long time to dry otherwise.

 

I suppose a closet is a small room that isn't big enough for a bed or anything useful, probably why the old name for a toilet was Water Closet. It isn't really used much in British English (we like our cupboards, wardrobes and rooms) and when it is used it's not as a term for storage places (or toilets) but as one for keeping things hidden. I hear "skeletons in the closet" almost as much as the cupboard variant and have done for years and of course it has become common parlance for someone who is keeping their sexuality under wraps - or closeted.

 

People never come out of the cupboard, they always come out of the closet!

[Carol the Dabbler]

OK, your definition of cupboard sounds a lot like mine. We use "cabinet" in roughly the same way as "cupboard," except that some usages (e.g., filing cabinet) have become fossilized with one word or the other.

 

Harry's "bedroom" (as shown in the movies) would probably be called a closet over here, because it's basically a very small room (albeit ridiculously misshapen, due to the stairs). American closets don't have to be used for hanging clothing -- we also have linen closets, for example, with shelves for stacks of folded sheets and towels.

 

Your airing cupboards sound like a good idea. In the open doorway of my laundry alcove, I've installed a hanging rod that I use for shirts and such that aren't quite dry when they come out of the dryer, and likewise towels sometimes.

 

I agree with your supposition regarding the origin of "water closet" -- a teeny room (closet) with plumbing (water). By the way, just about any American who's been around for a while (or paid attention to their parents' stories) will associate the term "WC" with this joke that host Jack Paar once tried to tell on his tv show.

 

Still one question left hanging -- what do you folks call small things built like rooms, typically about 3 feet deep and a bit wider than the door? These are similar in use to your wardrobes, but are not freestanding, and are meant to be reached into rather than walked into. We call them closets, but maybe you don't even have such things.

[aely]

That would be a big wardrobe, possibly a walk-in wardrobe depending on the size.

 

Apart from a filing cabinet which is obviously used in a fairly mundane fashion, a cabinet is a lot posher than a cupboard. You wouldn't display your china in a cupboard, but you would in a cabinet - or on a dresser (which is what my parents do). When I say dresser I mean what I would call a Welsh Dresser, which confusingly has cupboards in it... Then of course there is the sideboard, which also has cupboards (but no top shelves as it has a flat surface, traditionally used for the serving of food).

 

I have a hanging airer in the room with my boiler for drying my clothes. It's called a 'Sheila maid' and is the bees knees. I don't have a dryer, just a washing machine, so somewhere to hang my washing is essential and I can't use the line in the garden most of the time because of the rain.

[Carol the Dabbler]

So a "wardrobe" isn't necessarily either freestanding or walk-in?

 

As that Wikipedia page says, the American term for your Welsh dresser is a hutch (I've never heard "china hutch" though, probably because the only other type of hutch is a rabbit cage, and you'd be very unlikely to confuse a Welsh dresser with a rabbit cage). Such a cabinet without the shelf part on top would be either a sideboard or a buffet here. Going by the words themselves, I'd guess that a sideboard was originally meant for keeping condiments and other incidentals handy, while a buffet was intended for serving an entire meal from -- but my dictionary considers them synonyms, and so do I.

 

"The bee's knees"?! My goodness, that was popular here back in, I believe, the 1920's, along with the cat's pajamas and twenty-three skidoo. Hasn't been used here for ages, except as intentionally retro. I find the same to be true of many expressions listed as British in Bum Bags and Fanny Packs -- I'm familiar with them, but haven't heard them for ages. But as for your Sheila Maid, that's really cool -- you can hang up a bunch of stuff without having the wet things flapping in your face all day. Not sure I've ever seen anything quite like that over here.

[aely]

The bees knees is a lot more polite than the other variant I use!

[Undead Medic]

The bees knees is a lot more polite than the other variant I use!

 

Anything to do with canis lupus familiaris?

[aely]

How did you guess?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Are you referring to a truncated gerundial form of the feminine common noun -- or would that be too Californian, and you actually have in mind some quaint British expression?

[Undead Medic]

When something is really good it is often said to be

 

*Caution* Ever so slightly rude word contained within:

 

 

The dog's bollocks

(Usage: "That wine really was the dog's bollocks!")

 

 

Though quite how that is good I have never quite fathomed!

 

[aely]

It's defined on Urban Dictionary if you're interested though it seems it didn't enter common usage in the UK until the 1980s.

[Undead Medic]

...though it seems it didn't enter common usage in the UK until the 1980s.

 

I remember it becoming popular, at first there seemed to be some confusion as to whether it was meant to mean really good or really bad, and I seem to recall it being used in both contexts.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm about to mention the phrase "ink pen" on another thread, and thought I might as well do the explaining here (and then cross-reference). First off, are any of you folks familiar with that phrase? My impression is that it's a regional thing, pretty much confined to the lower Midwest (i.e., the Indiana area), but I've been wrong about that sort of thing before. For example, I was startled to hear Tim say "het up" on The Office, because I thought that was also an old-time Hoosier expression -- and it is, actually, but apparently not exclusively.

 

I believe the rationale behind "ink pen" is nicely explained by a conversation that I once overheard. Here's a phonetic transcription:

 

Girl #1: Kin I borry a pin?

 

Girl #2: Do you mean a safety pin or a ink pin?

In the local dialect, there's very little difference between the pronunciation of short-e and short-i. Even we locals can't reliably hear the distinction. So I suspect that the slightly-redundant expression "ink pen" arose for clarification purposes.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

According to what I have found on the www in England an ink pen would be called a biro if he wasn't using a ball pen/click pen.

[Undead Medic]

According to what I have found on the www in England an ink pen would be called a biro if he wasn't using a ball pen/click pen.

 

In my school we used to use the term "Ink Pen" to refer to specifically a cartridge or fountain pen, as in one that uses proper ink, and has a nib. A biro is generally a ballpoint, the use of which was frowned upon by my primary school teachers.

[aely]

If it's a biro/ballpoint/rollerball the pen is generally just 'a pen' as ink pen tends to specify one which used liquid ink as Tim said.

 

We were encouraged to use ink pens in school but the quality of the paper in work is so poor that I have to use a biro in work as the ink from my cartridge pen just sinks through the page.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Interesting. I wonder whether the term "ink pen" was in use in the UK before the introduction of the ballpoint pen? I've always assumed the term referred to pens in general over here, but would be interested in hearing from other Americans.

 

Aely, your story reminds me of when I was in 6th grade (about age 12). Even though we all knew how to write by then, of course, we had a weekly penmanship class that was supposed to refine our technique. I hated it. For our other classes, we used pencils or fountain pens or ballpoints -- but for penmanship, we were required to use a wooden pen body fitted with a horrible scratchy nib that had to be repeatedly dipped into a bottle of ink (basically a wood-and-steel quill pen). Our penmanship workbook was made of such cheap paper that when we did the required round-and-round-and-round circles, the middle of the circle would sometimes fall right out of the paper.

[aely]

I have pens like that, plus proper quill pens, that I use with oak gall ink and handmade paper. I also have a seal and various colours of wax. Sometimes I just like writing retro... The quality of the paper makes so much difference.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I stand corrected.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I have pens like that...

No, you don't, or at least I sure hope you don't. The operative phrase in my description was "horrible scratchy nib." There had clearly been no attempt whatsoever to round off the edges, remove burrs, or polish them. They were truly nasty!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I see that one of a local pharmacy is selling fountain pens might have to pop for a few to write out my story outlines.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I write fiction best in either pencil or gel pen. Wonder if one's writing-implement preference is a reliable indicator of -- something?

[aely]

Wonder if one's writing-implement preference is a reliable indicator of -- something?

Maybe... which means I should probably worry as if I'm physically writing (as opposed to writing using the computer) for fun, I write in purple!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I usually use pencil. It makes erasing sssoooo much easier but it would be fun to use a fountain pen again. It's been years although, now that I think of it, I do have a couple of hand crafted glass dip pens, maybe making my own ink would be an interesting project and much more personal.

[Carol the Dabbler]

When I'm writing anything "permanent" (as opposed to grocery lists and such), I prefer to leave an audit trail, in case I decide that I had it better the first time. So I generally use pen, simply because I don't plan to erase anyhow, and the greater contrast makes pen easier to read than pencil.

 

 

... I should probably worry as if I'm physically writing (as opposed to writing using the computer) for fun, I write in purple!

I went through a turquoise phase, back when I was still using a cartridge pen. Now that I've switched to gel, I generally use blue for letters (my nod to the personal touch) and black for everything else, including "writing." But if my favorite line of gel pens were easier to find in interesting colors, who knows?