Subtext Interpretation... What Do You See?

[JessieBlackwood]

To me this is one of the glaring differences between the old and the new. In the original stories, Sherlock does not tust women but he is never less than gentle toward them in his dealings with them. He is careful and gentlemanly at all times. This modern Sherlock takes the Asperger's route, the kind of man who is seemingly callous but who in actual fact doesn't pick up on social signals. I agree though that his attitude to Molly was cruel. I wonder if by doing this, they were establishing the attitude toward women that comes to a head with Irene. It makes Sherlock's attitude to her all the more contrasting. Actually, he does not deny being gay, if you notice. He merely puts off John's supposed advances by saying he is married to his work, not that he is 'not gay'. I think he simply dislikes women, dislikes any women who get between him and his only friend, and doesn't trust women in general. Depending on the person, he displays more or less dislike, the same as we all might feel but few of us actually show. He is quite cruel to Sally in Study in Pink, but then she deserves it to some extent. He is alright with Mrs Hudson but does tend to use her a lot. With Sarah he is dismissive until she comes up with something useful. In general, women confound him.

[JessieBlackwood]

Actually, following on this train of thought, Ben seems to be playing Sherlock as if he were a rather tall and annoying ten year old. I've heard the quote in one fanfiction (not mine although I used a version of it) that it was like living with a rather tall and annoying toddler. Sherlock is like a child. He hasn't learned social graces, he is rude, a show-off, challenging, lazy and cocky. How he speaks to Donovan is like a verbal version of pulling her pigtails because she called him names. He likes John, because John likes him. Lestrade is like a father or teacher figure who always seems a little non-plussed as to how to deal with him. Mycroft is the older brother who hates little brother because little brother is annoying and Mummy expects Mycroft to be the responsible one. Sherlock displays all the wonder of a child where certain subjects are concerned. He forgets the important facts in favour of more interesting ones. Who cares if the earth goes round the sun as long as he has crimes to solve.

[M011y H00per]

Firstly, I don't believe Mycroft really HATES Sherlock. He might resent having a feeling of responsibility towards him and Sherlock's sometimes, frankly, outrageous behaviour.

 

As to Sherlock's view of women, I think it is more general than that. He only, really, has time for people who like him in some way and who are helpful to him and his detecting. Anyone else, male or female are treated badly. He doesn't need them, they get in his way and make life difficult for him, so he always says such nasty things. An example is Anderson, whilst we might laugh at the way Sherlock treats him, and it may well be deserved, it is actually cruel and appalling behaviour most of the time (slamming a door in his face, declaring him to be stupid in front of a whole room of colleagues and making him turn towards the wall because his face is putting him off). He uses the same sort of tactics with his brother deliberately embarrassing him in the palace etc.

 

He cares about very, very few people. To him the "game" is all important and when he cannot work or is frustrated in his work his behaviour deteriorates to its most childish.

[Lightninstar]

I've always been one for shipping Anderson and that fat guy who presented the boomerang case. They just seem fitting, short life expectancy, low IQ with the right sleeve of an internet porn addict.

[Lightninstar]

Oh and my opinion on the Johnlock ship or any Sherlock ship:

 

Johnlock is an amazing pairing, but it wouldn't ever officially happen unfortunately. The fact is Sherlock doesn't have time for distractions or relationships, I doubt he's asexual, because in the books he has commented mildly on beauty.

 

Since John currently lives with him, them being in a relationship would probably be a huge distraction from his experiments and work - not intentionally on John's behalf of course - it would either break some of what their great friendship is at the moment or change Sherlock into something else.

 

'Love is a chemical defect found on the losing side,' seemed pretty conclusive to me on Sherlock's behalf with sexual relationships and infatuation at the end of Belgravia.

Irene and Sherlock both danced around each other with a mutual respect and fascination, it was a messed up game and I don't think Sherlock really understood what she apparently meant to him till the end, back in Doyle's time women weren't seen as intelligible, but Irene was. He had respect for her, a different kind of one, I wouldn't say it was love, but it was probably intense for him, the end of the episode pretty much said that he didn't want anything to do with it anyway.

 

Although I could be proven wrong, I hope I am. I can't see Moffat or Gatiss or Thompson writing them as gay though. Since Moffat and Gatiss are fanboys they like sticking close to canon. Glad they add subtext though, love them for it. Thompson seems to love it too. Epic writers are epic.

 

- kind of a little rant.

[aely]

My opinion on 'Johnlock' is that it should be shot down in flames. I hate smushed names, no matter what the fandom, as in in my opinion every character has a right to be known by their own individual name, even when they're being shipped with another character.

 

Er yes, I am that person who used to run around yelling "I am not a number, I am a free man!" when I was a teenager...

 

 

My opinion on John/Sherlock, however, is that I'd love to see it in some form, even if it wouldn't really 'work' but I also know that it's highly unlikely we ever will. Subtext will do quite nicely though in the interim, thanks boys.

Edited June 7, 2012 by aely

[deducingtoconclusions]

Personally, I very highly doubt Doyle intentionally wrote Holmes and Watson's relationship as romantic or even ambiguous (someone told me Doyle was very homophobic), but my imagination likes to beat down common sense and run away so when I read the stories with a slash fangirl mindset needless to say it is much more enjoyable. I like to believe that Holmes is in fact asexual since he clearly favors intelligence over attractiveness, and while he may be able to appreciate beauty, he has no inclination towards having a sexual relationship with a man or a woman. I really didn't like the relationship between Holmes and Irene Adler in the Robert Downey Jr. movies because it really seem at all canon to me.

 

I'm just going to ship Johnlock anyway.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I loved Watson's exasperated, "Who the hell knows about Sherlock Holmes--but, for the record, if anyone cares, I'm NOT GAY," to Adler....And, of course, her retort that she is gay, with the point being that they both love Holmes, even if none of the sexual orientations actually match up.

That line of Irene's (followed by "Look at the two of us.") had me puzzled me from the start -- but how very obvious, now that you mention it! Thanks for the translation!

 

I want to know about the ring that looks very much like a wedding ring on Mycroft's right hand.

 

Oh yes, I've been wondering about that lately too. It certainly looks like a wedding band. This show is very good with detail, so it's most likely not a mistake. Wedding rings are usually worn on the left hand though aren't they?

 

Two items that may (or may not) shed some light on the question (which has me curious as well) -- 1) I'm pretty sure that Mark Gatiss wears two simple bands, one on each ring finger, so that ring may be one of his. The one he generally wears on his left hand is presumably his wedding ring, but I have no idea what the significance of the right-hand ring might be. 2) I've heard that in some countries (e.g., some European countries), wedding rings are worn on the right hand, or that the hand they're worn on depends on the wearer's particular religion (e.g., Protestants wear them on one hand and Catholics on the other). Perhaps someone can confirm/correct these points.

 

Mycroft is gay and that is referred to in Doyle's books, can't remember which one but there is a passage where someone is mentioned as a ladies man and Mycroft replies with 'Each to their own.' Of course Gatiss is gay....

 

I haven't yet read any stories with Mycroft in them, so cannot comment on the context, but to me, that sentence by itself could mean a number of things, and he might or might not be comparing the other man to himself. For example, he could be comparing the "ladies' man" to a stereotypical "one-woman" type. Or he could be implying that he himself is "not interested," like his brother. Of course, since Mark Gatiss himself, as you point out, is gay, it's tempting to assume that his Mycroft is as well. Also, Sherlock and John seem to think that he is -- "Do you think we'll see the Queen?" "Apparently, yes." *giggle* [Now, boys!]

Edited August 14, 2012 by Carol the Dabbler

[Carol the Dabbler]

... Ben seems to be playing Sherlock as if he were a rather tall and annoying ten year old. I've heard the quote in one fanfiction ... that it was like living with a rather tall and annoying toddler.

 

At first, I seriously disliked Sherlock's Sherlock. I'm not saying that I thought the character was badly written or badly played -- just that I wouldn't have cared to meet him! He seemed like a spoiled brat, throwing temper tantrums when he was bored, sulking in fetal position when he didn't get his way, and acting like the entire apartment and everything in it was HIS. Frankly, I'd have said two-year-old!

 

... This modern Sherlock takes the Asperger's route, the kind of man who is seemingly callous but who in actual fact doesn't pick up on social signals....

 

But John's informal diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome really made sense to me, so I'm seeing Sherlock in a different way now, even when I watch the early episodes. Also, John's mentoring seems to be having a gradual effect on Sherlock's behavior in later episodes. So the character has been slowly growing on me, and I actually kinda like him now.

[Brainy]

2) I've heard that in some countries (e.g., some European countries), wedding rings are worn on the right hand, or that the hand they're worn on depends on the wearer's particular religion (e.g., Protestants wear them on one hand and Catholics on the other). Perhaps someone can confirm/correct these points.

Yes, in Germany, couples normally wear their wedding ring on the right hand. If you wear it on the left, it usually means that your partner has passed away.

Not all people stick to that tradition, of course. But that's like the 'general rule' here in Germany.

 

 

Also, Sherlock and John seem to think that he is -- "Do you think we'll see the Queen?" "Apparently, yes." *giggle* [Now, boys!]

 

 

 

 

Ohhhhh.. I didn't get that until now! Thanks for pointing it out!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks for the wedding-ring info, Brainy! So maybe Mycroft is married to a German (but man or woman, who knows?).

 

A number of the jokes in Sherlock rely on the audience's knowledge of British slang and other terminology (e.g., "pants" = underpants). Maybe the DVD should have special subtitles for non-British viewers like you & me!

[improbable]

Hi,

 

I do ship Johnlock - or John/Sherlock, as you like - but I don't think that we'll ever see more than subtext about that in the series. As in most of the tv shows, the chemistry between the main characters is fundamental to hold the audience. The key is the tension and by controlling this the writers just keep us wondering 'will they/won't they?' from one episode to the next one.

 

 

Yes, in Germany, couples normally wear their wedding ring on the right hand. If you wear it on the left, it usually means that your partner has passed away.

Not all people stick to that tradition, of course. But that's like the 'general rule' here in Germany.

 

In Italy we wear engaging and wedding rings on the left hand. Any ring on the right hand has no specific meaning. I don't know if this tradition is related to Catholicism, can anyone confirm of that? it's interesting...

[aely]

I don't know if this tradition is related to Catholicism, can anyone confirm of that? it's interesting...

I can't exactly confirm it, but with this being a tradition in the UK - which until Henry VIII was a catholic country - I wouldn't be surprised. Much Anglican tradition is related to RC tradition, but with the less believable bits pared off IMO (I was brought up as RC, married as an Anglican and now identify as either Jedi or Pastafarian).

 

Wiki has this to say...

 

Before medical science discovered how the circulatory system functioned, people believed that a vein of blood ran directly from the third finger on the left hand to the heart. Because of the hand-heart connection, they chose the descriptive name vena amori, Latin for the vein of love, for this particular vein.

Based upon this name, their contemporaries, purported experts in the field of matrimonial etiquette, wrote that it would only be fitting that the wedding ring be worn on this finger. By wearing the ring on the third finger of the left hand, a married couple symbolically declares their eternal love for each other.

In Western cultures, a wedding ring is traditionally worn on the ring finger. This developed from the Roman "annulus pronubis" when the man gave a ring to the woman at the betrothal ceremony. Blessing the wedding ring and putting it on the bride's finger dates from the 11th century. In medieval Europe, the Christian wedding ceremony placed the ring in sequence on the index, middle, and ring fingers of the left hand. The ring was then left on the ring finger. In a few European countries, the ring is worn on the left hand prior to marriage, then transferred to the right during the ceremony. For example, a Greek Orthodox bride wears the ring on the left hand prior to the ceremony, then moves it to the right hand after the wedding. In England, the 1549 Prayer Book declared "the ring shall be placed on the left hand". By the 17th and 18th centuries the ring could be found on any finger after the ceremony — even on the thumb.

[improbable]

I was brought up as RC, married as an Anglican and now identify as either Jedi or Pastafarian

 

May the Force be with you...or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, as you like it...

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Sherlock, according to no less then four Sherlockian scholars, was not dysfunctional nor asexual he may have been suffering by what is known as psychological heart break. A true existing condition. As is Broken Heart Syndrome. They believe that he didn't hate women, nor saw them inferior it's just because of an early love affair or marriage that left him a young widower, he became celibate to protect himself from such loss ever again. This may be seen in the statement Sherlock made to John in Angelo's. "....I think you should know that I consider myself married to my work, and while I am flattered by your interest, I'm really not looking for any kind of relationship at all."

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sherlock, according to no less then four Sherlockian scholars, was not dysfunctional nor asexual he may have been suffering by what is known as psychological heart break. A true existing condition. As is Broken Heart Syndrome. They believe that he didn't hate women, nor saw them inferior it's just because of an early love affair or marriage that left him a young widower, he became celibate to protect himself from such loss ever again. This may be seen in the statement Sherlock made to John in Angelo's. "....I think you should know that I consider myself married to my work, and while I am flattered by your interest, I'm really not looking for any kind of relationship at all."

 

As the saying goes, "once burnt, twice shy." That's certainly a plausible explanation for his behavior. Although Sherlock Holmes (both in the few ACD stories I've read and in Sherlock) may not hate women, he does seem to consider them something of a mystery (the one area where he defers to John Watson's expertise), which could stem from the same incident. (I don't see that as the only possible explanation, though.)

[aely]

As the saying goes, "once burnt, twice shy."

Another one for the language thread - we say "Once bitten, twice shy."

 

Back to Sherlock Holmes, I've still not read any of the original stories (I know, bad me). From what I understand in A Study in Scarlet, which I think is the first one, he is quite a young man. For someone with his brain power who has difficulty with social skills, a bad experience at an early age certainly could have the effect of turning him off relationships for all time. Hell, it's still happening - I know so many people who have come out of relationships, often long term, for various reasons, who say they have had enough of them and are no longer interested in the sheer mess a relationship makes, or the hard work a decent relationship requires.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Exactly. And John's comment to Lestrade in the "Hound of the Baskervilles" about Sherlock's having asperger's is no stretch either. This was brought to the scholar's attention in the original stories. This alone would make social contacts difficult and messy. And a young marriage and death of a wife would be especially difficult to cope with.

 

I am exploring this concept in one of my stories in ff.net. It's called "Sherlock's Heart". A work in progress.

[Carol the Dabbler]

John's casual diagnosis of Asperger's makes perfect sense to me. I like Sherlock (the BBC character) much better now that I'm I viewing the episodes with that in mind. I would think that the "broken heart syndrome" could exacerbate Asperger's pretty badly -- though the Asperger's alone could explain many of Sherlock's quirks.

 

Totally irrelevant, but I have the -- feeling? -- that John Watson was married fairly young, probably while in medical school, but then she sent him a (literal) "Dear John" letter while he was in Afghanistan. (And married one of his buddies, I think.) But John is more socially adept than Sherlock, so he didn't swear off women. And, come to think of it, if that marriage had meant very much to him in the first place, what was he doing in Afghanistan? So of course the divorce didn't break his heart. No, no -- that's too easy a criticism. I already said he was young, and young people often do what they believe they're supposed to do or expected to do -- e.g., getting married or joining the military.

[wildwoodflower]

Here's another question to keep the ball rolling: what is your favorite ship and what made you start shipping them?

 

I always kinda shipped johnlock but after the dialogue between John and Irene I felt that they might actually be in love ( I mean, is there another interpretation to what Irene said?)

 

Uh, yes. She was screwing with his mind by pointing out John's genuine and real feelings for his friend and making it secual, because that's her profession and because she's good at screwing with people.

 

I take John at his word for not being gay. That doesn't mean he doesn't love the man.

 

I like relationships that are honest and allow for the many variables of human love and sexuality. But men can be close friends and love each other without wanting to jump each others bones all the time. To constantly suggest otherwise does men a great disservice. That being said, fanfic and shipping is all about fantasy and fulfillment of same. And Sherlock is written as ambiguously as possible re: his sexualitly and the producers have genrously (or mockingly) played to the fangirl elements with visual cues and in the text.. So everyone gets to play. Also fanfic writers (who are statistically mostly women) seem to enjoy the romance and the angsty implications of romance. I am a woman who doesn't enjoy romance for its own sake and so find myself mostly annoyed by the slash. Not because it can't or shouldn't exist between the charaxters (I've read some stories that build that aspect of their relationship beautifully) but because it so often revolves around the domestic side of things. Which is (to quote SH) boring. As hell. To me.

[wildwoodflower]

On another note... what do you guys make of Sherlock's behavior towards Molly? Now, I am in no way a Sherlock-Molly shipper (I don't much like her doormat personality). I'm just genuinely baffled by the way he treats her sometimes. Most notable is the Christmas scene in a Scandal in Belgravia. Now, Sherlock has never been very gallant when it comes to women. To say that he was unfriendly towards John's girlfriend in this scene would be an understatement. But that is nothing compare to how he treated Molly. When Molly stepped into the room that night, Sherlock became distinctly cold and almost hostile... immediately sitting down at the computer and pointedly ignoring her, muttering snide remarks under his breath, and rolling his eyes. I was very surprised by his behavior. He was never this unfriendly towards other women, even with Sally Donovan. Yet here, he was noticeably meaner than usual with Molly. What's with that?

I

Well, applying the Asperger's diagnosis (and observations of a friend with this) - I noticed that it wasn't necessarily Molly in that instance, but rather the fact that she said the note on the door said to come up - he seemed to be (actor playing it that way) having trouble coping with the amount of people in the room. We'd already seen him demand everyone to stop thinking (in Pink) - it was just too much of the wrong kind of stimuli - so he retreated into the thing that engages his mind (fixates maybe), picking apart the moticvations of others through keen observation of details, and then realized he was being a shit. He was a horrible dick to her, but did apologize. Which means that he knew how horrible and that he cared how she felt.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... he seemed to be ... having trouble coping with the amount of people in the room....

I have no idea whether that's textbook Asperger's, but you're right, that does seem to be a common reaction with people who are already having a problem with social situations in general. Good point.

 

I'm still wondering why he apologized, other than maybe John is finally having an effect on him.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

According to what is being written on fanfiction.net by professional people in the field of Asperger's and what I have seen in my friend's autistic grandson, this behavior is pretty much text book and mild in some ways. Torren has been known to stand in the middle of the floor during a birthday party, Christmas party, or just one person in having coffee and a chat and, in no uncertain terms, tell everyone to "Go Home!!" up to and including shoving them towards the door nor will he apologize afterward. Over stimulation gets to be actually physically painful and they can take just so much before they start to have a full blown anxiety attack or some kind of melt down.

 

As to why Sherlock would apologize, yes, it could be John's good influence or it could be he really does like Molly and she isn't the type to play games and hurt him like Irene Adler is doing. But that is just my take on it, others may see it differently.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks, Fox. That's useful information.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

It's also why Sherlock would not like to do any shopping unless absolutley necessary. The crush of people, the to many choices and decisions to be made, how many brands of milk? Skimmed, low fat? How many types and brands of bread? Cereal? He would be confronted with the hum from the over head lights, which they can hear and it tends to drive autistic people up the wall, the peep, peep, peep of all the scanners at the check out lines. It all adds up to raw nerves and confusion. Torren can only take about 20 minutes in any store before he starts going ballistic.