Cumberbatch vs Miller?

[Khalid Khan]

I'm a pretty massive Cumberbatch fan, not just of his work in Sherlock but of him in general, and I had mentally dismissed Elementary before I had seen a single episode. Then I watched a few episodes...

 

I'm not really trying to argue for Elementary as a show, I enjoy it but it's basically a police procedural with some Holmsian elements, rather than actually feeling like a proper Sherlock Holmes adaptation or reimagining. The plots are pretty formulaic and it's enjoyable but not very... fun.

 

But I really think Jonny Lee Miller is fantastic, regardless of the show as a whole. His interpretation of Holmes has really grown on me, it's got it's own quirks and tics, feel like it comes from a different 'place' than Cumberbatch, more anger and tension as he tries to control himself. Just wanting to hear if I've got mad from the lack of Sherlock Season 3 or does anyone else agree with Miller has created something on par with Cumberbatch here?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think Mr. Miller is a good actor. The show isn't bad. I do watch it, but it doesn't grab me like the BBC series did.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree that Miller's (and/or the writers' and/or directors') interpretation of Sherlock Holmes is intriguing. I like it very much. But Elementary is, as you say, more focussed on the plots (which are beautifully intricate and well crafted), so it's difficult for me to compare the two performances. (Heck, I always find it difficult to compare performances, unless maybe if it's two actors doing the same script.)

 

I personally find Elementary to be a great deal of fun -- but nowhere near as compelling as Sherlock.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Khalid Khan, your post was so interesting that I forgot to add -- Welcome to Sherlock Forum! Hope you like it here and stick around!

[Nathan]

I have seen some episodes of 'Elementary' and it is quite a good show, but I cannot really say I like it. The opening is awesome with this chain-reaction and the little figure of a man being caged and so on. And for a TV series it's ok. Only thing is it's so different from the original stories I keep wondering why they call him Sherlock Holmes. I mean - there are a lot of characters like Sherlock Holmes on TV, i.e. Monk or the guy from Psych. But why change it that much and at the same time try to put real SH-elements into it just to keep the name?

Really, the series is ok and Miller is doing quite well. But it's not Sherlock.

And sometimes it's far too obvious what they are going at. Then I just sit there and think: "Come on, even I could have solved that by now" and then it turns boring pretty fast.

It is still better than many other series though.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I feel pretty much the same thing. The writers can do a pretty nice job in putting the episodes together but sometimes the elements are a little to simplistic. They are trying hard to make this a "Sherlock Holmes" event...but sometimes I think they are fall a bit short. It just doesn't have the same feel as most.

[Mister Owl]

As for the performences, I believe that Cumberbatch is a much better Holmes than Miller.

Then again, Miller is a very different kind of Holmes, so I'm guessing this is based off my personal opinion of what Sherlock Holmes should be like.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Then again, Miller is a very different kind of Holmes, so I'm guessing this is based off my personal opinion of what Sherlock Holmes should be like.

I think that is where I am at as well. These two are supposed to be the Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Victorian Sherlock Holmes brought forward to the 21st Century. A modern day Sherlock. The BBC version is awash with references to the canon. The CBS version, except for the names being bandied about, gives me no sense of the canon at all. 

 

Not Miller's fault by any stretch but I think the writers of this show, as good as the acting and plots are, are missing the mark some how. That is just my opinion though. I know many others may and will feel differently.

[Julia Mae]

But I really think Jonny Lee Miller is fantastic, regardless of the show as a whole.

 

Mr. Cumberbatch agrees with you.  Don't know how many here realize that they played Frankenstein and the Creature on the London stage, switching the roles on alternate nights?  They were a triumph.

 

 

 

I haven't seen Elementary, but I imagine Miller is amazing in it, and Benedict Cumberbatch has expressed the opinion there is plenty of room for them both.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree, there's plenty of room.  Elementary is more plot-driven, and Sherlock is -- what? -- more character-driven?

 

 

[wildwoodflower]

I'm a pretty massive Cumberbatch fan, not just of his work in Sherlock but of him in general, and I had mentally dismissed Elementary before I had seen a single episode. Then I watched a few episodes...

 

I'm not really trying to argue for Elementary as a show, I enjoy it but it's basically a police procedural with some Holmsian elements, rather than actually feeling like a proper Sherlock Holmes adaptation or reimagining. The plots are pretty formulaic and it's enjoyable but not very... fun.

 

But I really think Jonny Lee Miller is fantastic, regardless of the show as a whole. His interpretation of Holmes has really grown on me, it's got it's own quirks and tics, feel like it comes from a different 'place' than Cumberbatch, more anger and tension as he tries to control himself. Just wanting to hear if I've got mad from the lack of Sherlock Season 3 or does anyone else agree with Miller has created something on par with Cumberbatch here?

 

Well, I like them both and both interpretations are really fantastic (though I agree that BBC Sherlock is a better show and altogether much more fun) but JLM is more physically close to the description of Holmes by Watson in A Study in Scarlet - you know the high-forehead, thin-lips. I think JLM is amazing in the role (even if the show isn't as sparkly).. I also think BC is amazing in the role and I am perfectly content to feast upon any iteration of Sherlock as long as they keep giving them to me.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

The BBC Sherlock also carries many of Doyle's description of Holmes.  Tall, pale skin, tidy as a cat in his dress and personal habits, except for the drugs of course but back in Victorian times they were not under prohibition. Very precise in his manner of speech. Plays the violin. I think the CBS Sherlock broke his violin in the first episode or something like that and yet to take it back up again?

[Mister Owl]

I agree, there's plenty of room.  Elementary is more plot-driven, and Sherlock is -- what? -- more character-driven?

 

I'd say it's a mix of both. It tried to balance the complex mysteries while also giving the characters plenty of depth to disect.

A Scandal In Belgravia is a prime example of character driven plot, focusing more Holmes. Does he have feelings for Adler? Can a man like him have feelings? Or is he the cold, calculating machine he views himself as?

On the contrary, The Reichenbach Fall is an example of a story driven narrative in the BBC series. What with the intrique of Moriarty's deception and plan, but also the prospect of presenting Holmes as a fraud, even to the point that the viewer considers such things.

 

I guess I inadvertently found why I enjoy the BBC show more. It's the perfect brew for my Sherlock elixir.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... The Reichenbach Fall is an example of a story driven narrative in the BBC series. What with the intrique of Moriarty's deception and plan, but also the prospect of presenting Holmes as a fraud, even to the point that the viewer considers such things.

True. Maybe I used the wrong word when I described Elementary as plot-driven.  I was talking about the whodunnit aspects, especially the plot twists.  Watching an episode of that show is like watching an intricate clockwork mechanism ticking through its paces.  Fascinating, but once through is generally enough for me.

 

By contrast, what I enjoy about Sherlock is not so much the nuts-and-bolts plots (some of which are actually pretty bad), but rather the interactions between characters and what might be called the story arc.  I also think the acting is better (though Elementary's is very good), the dialog is wittier (love it!), and there's more attention to detail (other than the aforementioned plots).  I find it eminently re-watchable.

 

[aely]

I love them both.

 

In Elementary, I adore Joan Watson, though I was very sceptical about her at first, and I think she's a perfect foil for JLM's Holmes. I also think the secondary characters of Gregson and Bell work well.

 

I think if Elementary had been aired without BBC Sherlock having been done, it would have blown us all out of the water as the only other 'modern' Holmes with which to compare it wouild have been RDJ's Holmes (and tbh I kind of regard those as steampunk action movies featuring Holmes and Watson).

 

At the end of the day I think BBC Sherlock shows its British roots and Elementary its American ones (despite there being a British actor in the lead role, but no-one would have taken it seriously with an American Holmes).

 

As BC said, there is room for them both (as long as CBS don't tread on the BBCs toes).

 

I saw both versions of Frankenstein when the National Theatre live screenings took place, and both JLM and BC were fantastic. They are both very talented actors and I don't think anyone would dispute that.

 

However...

 

Much as I love Elementary, and JLM's Holmes, I still prefer BBC Sherlock.  There are many reasons, but Rupert Graves is a very important one to me!

[Alex the Dabbler]

While I do like Elementary, I absolutely love Sherlock!  The plots in Elementary are sometimes too clever for their own good, with so many twists and turns that become a bit annoying to me at times.  I also think that the gore in Elementary sometimes strikes me as gratuitous.

 

The acting in both shows is very good, although I think the acting in Sherlock is superior.  Miller and Liu are very good, but Cumberbatch and Freeman set the modern-day standard in my opinion.  As Cumberbatch has said, Sherlock is also truer to the Conan Doyle books and certainly more British, while Elementary strikes me as kind of an American CSI clone that just happens to feature a modern-day British Sherlock Holmes.  As my wife has said, Sherlock is more compelling and more re-watchable.

 

[Pawse]

I'll have Benedict Cumberbatch. Not literally..!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Not to worry, dear. I think most of us feel the same way. I know some people who watch "Elementary" and really like it don't get the Conan Doyle "Sherlock Holmes" connection...which is a bit strange to me.....but there ya go.  Miller is a good actor though.....no denying that.

[sherlockandjohn]

I'll have Benedict Cumberbatch. Not literally..!

 

    Thanks for making me laugh heartily!

[Pawse]

 

I'll have Benedict Cumberbatch. Not literally..!

Thanks for making me laugh heartily!

 

Heh..! I've never made anyone laugh like that before..!

Edited April 2, 2014 by Carol the Dabbler
repaired Quote codes

[Pawse]

 

 

 

 

I'll have Benedict Cumberbatch. Not literally..!

Thanks for making me laugh heartily!

Heh..! I've never made anyone laugh like that before..!

Thanks for the edit - I thought I screwed up..!

[Convict13]

I have to agree with everyone here,  although Elementary is a good and I too was sceptical about "Joan Watson" I think is works really well.  Johnny is brilliant as I knew he would be, but there are couple of things that make me not watch it week after week, 

 

1. It's like every other police show, it doesn't seem as clever as Sherlock.

 

2. It's not in the UK, sorry but Holmes has to be in the UK to me. 

[Ultragonk]

For me Cumberbatch wins by default. Even though I do like Miller as an actor and have watched every episode of Elementary and enjoyed them well enough I can't get passed the feeling that Elementary is portraying Holmes with heavy influence from Dr. House. I don't know if they feel that Holmes is too British to really be a success in America but in both Elementary and the Downey Jr films they change Holmes that just takes it away from who Holmes. The BBC series keeps Holmes closer to the original and that's what I like. 

[by the sea]

I believe I've seen every episode of Elementary, although I wasn't much taken with it at first ... somebody else in the house wanted to watch it so I stuck with it and it has definitely grown on me.  I've enjoyed the journey of Joan Watson and like her as a character ... although I'm not entirely sure I'm happy with the sleeping with Mycroft thing.  JLM's Sherlock has kind of gone from hyper and annoying to very soft spoken ... I always have to turn the volume up really high when he's speaking and I don't have any hearing issues ... and somewhat less annoying.  I have no problem with Mr. Miller's acting but his Sherlock doesn't seem especially Sherlock-y to me ... just a forensic whiz with a British accent and a perpetually sour look on his face.  I sometimes get the impression he doesn't like himself very much.  I like the stories enough to not feel compelled to do other things while the show is on ... like empty the dishwasher or something.  I like Gregson and Bell well enough as well.  All in all, it's entertaining.

 

BBC Sherlock, however, is riveting.  The stories have their various holes, but who cares ?  The acting is excellent and the relationships between the characters are amazing.  I like Joan Watson but I love John Watson  .  The atmosphere is so British and that is such a large part of the story to me.  And Mr. Cumberbatch is just wonderful.  He's just what you'd expect Sherlock to be like in 2014 ... well groomed and well dressed and tech savvy ... hyper in a controlled sort of way ... well connected ... and perfectly full of himself.  Just a perfect show !  

 

Debbie

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I found Elementary kind of hard to watch after being dosed with the BBC version and I work nights so it was easy to miss, but I find that if I do have a Thursday night off, I will tune in. It's not a bad show and can be interesting....but like Debbie posted above, it doesn't have the energy and chemistry of BBC Sherlock. Cumberbatch's portrayal of Sherlock Holmes is closer to what I expected a modern Holmes to be.