The Ice Man and The Virgin

[petitecuriosity]

How do you think these nicknames origniated for Mycroft and Sherlock?

 

Do you think that they adequately describe them?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

    It's hard to know if these actually originated with Moriarty. Why would he care about Sherlock's sexual orientation. He was out to kill him, not court him, well...according to some of our discussions Moriarty was sounding Sherlock out. Hoping to recruit Sherlock into what ever organization Moriarty was the head of, but that didn't mean there was anything like a sexual attraction going on. More of a meeting of the intellect.

 

  Irene Adler's words to Sherlock as he punched the letters that would unlock her phone was that she was playing some sort of game of her own and what she had said wasn't true.

 

  Do they "adequately describe them"?   No, not from point of view anyway. Mycroft did care, about many things. And from Sherlock's reaction to Mycroft's "How would you know". When Sherlock told him "sex does not alarm me." gave some hint that he may not have been the virgin Mycroft and apparently Moriarty or Irene, for what ever reason, seemed to think he was.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't think "virgin" necessarily refers to sex.  (And if it did, who knows how accurate that would be?)  Sherlock is a bit naive about certain things, though.  In particular, he doesn't understand emotions very well, his own or other people's, and I suspect that's closer to what Moriarty had in mind.  Not a complete description of Sherlock, obviously, but accurate, I think, as far as it goes.

 

As for "ice man" -- well, Mycroft certainly does seem to consider himself "above it all," untouched by vulgar considerations.  How accurate his self-assessment is, I have no idea, but Moriarty's nickname does fit.

 

It just occurs to me that Mycroft and Sherlock have a relationship somewhat reminiscent of Sarek and Spock, with Sherlock struggling to deal with his own humanity, and Mycroft responding with what could be taken as ridicule.

 

[Julia Mae]

How do you think these nicknames origniated for Mycroft and Sherlock?

 

Do you think that they adequately describe them?

 

They originated when Irene Adler said them and attributed them to Moriarty.  I see no reason to believe she didn't quote him accurately.

 

Is Sherlock a virgin?  Quite possibly.  Although, it's also possible when he was young that he had a sexual experience and found out how much it affected his ability to think clearly, stay focused, do the work he loves more than anything.  Thomas Merton, the contemplative monk and mystic, had quite the active life at ... Oxford, I think... anyway, the story is  he left an illegitimate child behind when he entered religious life. 

 

I always think of Sherlock as this sort, in the world but not of it.  Or, like Spock, aware of how easy it is for his passions to consume him and so, eschewing all emotion.   IMO, as with classic canon, Sherlock is a heterosexual man who chose to give up romantic/sexual relationships in favor of total dedication to his craft.

 

Is Mycroft the Iceman?  You'd have to ask Moriarty exactly what he meant and we can't because, yanno, he's dead! 

 

[petitecuriosity]

    It's hard to know if these actually originated with Moriarty. Why would he care about Sherlock's sexual orientation. He was out to kill him, not court him, well...according to some of our discussions Moriarty was sounding Sherlock out. Hoping to recruit Sherlock into what ever organization Moriarty was the head of, but that didn't mean there was anything like a sexual attraction going on. More of a meeting of the intellect.

 

  Irene Adler's words to Sherlock as he punched the letters that would unlock her phone was that she was playing some sort of game of her own and what she had said wasn't true.

 

  Do they "adequately describe them"?   No, not from point of view anyway. Mycroft did care, about many things. And from Sherlock's reaction to Mycroft's "How would you know". When Sherlock told him "sex does not alarm me." gave some hint that he may not have been the virgin Mycroft and apparently Moriarty or Irene, for what ever reason, seemed to think he was.

 

That's an interesting theory, that Moriarty was hoping to recruit Sherlock. I'd never considered that before. Do you happen to have a link to those theories?

 

I do agree that Mycroft does care, certainly, about some things. He especially seems to care about Sherlock. I may have missed something -- What do you think in Sherlock's expression, in response to Mycroft's, "How would you know?" offered a hint that he may not have been the virgin everyone expected?

[petitecuriosity]

I don't think "virgin" necessarily refers to sex.  (And if it did, who knows how accurate that would be?)  Sherlock is a bit naive about certain things, though.  In particular, he doesn't understand emotions very well, his own or other people's, and I suspect that's closer to what Moriarty had in mind.  Not a complete description of Sherlock, obviously, but accurate, I think, as far as it goes.

 

As for "ice man" -- well, Mycroft certainly does seem to consider himself "above it all," untouched by vulgar considerations.  How accurate his self-assessment is, I have no idea, but Moriarty's nickname does fit.

 

It just occurs to me that Mycroft and Sherlock have a relationship somewhat reminiscent of Sarek and Spock, with Sherlock struggling to deal with his own humanity, and Mycroft responding with what could be taken as ridicule.

 

Oooh. I really do like your explanations! It does make sense that Sherlock's "virginity" could refer to how naive he is, especially with regard to emotions and the emotions of others. That is accurate.

 

I like your explanation for Mycroft as well, it makes a lot of sense.

[petitecuriosity]

 

How do you think these nicknames origniated for Mycroft and Sherlock?

 

Do you think that they adequately describe them?

 

They originated when Irene Adler said them and attributed them to Moriarty.  I see no reason to believe she didn't quote him accurately.

 

Is Sherlock a virgin?  Quite possibly.  Although, it's also possible when he was young that he had a sexual experience and found out how much it affected his ability to think clearly, stay focused, do the work he loves more than anything.  Thomas Merton, the contemplative monk and mystic, had quite the active life at ... Oxford, I think... anyway, the story is  he left an illegitimate child behind when he entered religious life. 

 

I always think of Sherlock as this sort, in the world but not of it.  Or, like Spock, aware of how easy it is for his passions to consume him and so, eschewing all emotion.   IMO, as with classic canon, Sherlock is a heterosexual man who chose to give up romantic/sexual relationships in favor of total dedication to his craft.

 

Is Mycroft the Iceman?  You'd have to ask Moriarty exactly what he meant and we can't because, yanno, he's dead! 

 

 

 

I did recall when they originated on the show, I was just curious as to how Moriarty may have come up with them.

 

I do rather like your assessment of Sherlock; I tend to see him that way as well, having had a sexual experience and deciding it interfered with his work. I love the way you described him as in the world but not of it. That fits perfectly!

 

And *sigh* we will never know for certain what Moriarty meant in calling Mycroft "The Iceman."

 

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

What do you think in Sherlock's expression, in response to Mycroft's, "How would you know?" offered a hint that he may not have been the virgin everyone expected?

 

 

  It's Sherlock's eyes. When you watch that episode again, watch carefully to Sherlock's expression, especially his eyes, in answer to Mycroft's comment.

 

[SH/LotR/Zelda Fan]

/>

 

Is Mycroft the Iceman? You'd have to ask Moriarty exactly what he meant and we can't because, yanno, he's dead!

 

UNLESS, we get a TARDIS!!! Then we can go back in time to when he was alive and ask him!

 

Except, that's kinda not gonna happen...

[Julia Mae]

 

I did recall when they originated on the show, I was just curious as to how Moriarty may have come up with them.

 

I do rather like your assessment of Sherlock; I tend to see him that way as well, having had a sexual experience and deciding it interfered with his work. I love the way you described him as in the world but not of it. That fits perfectly!

 

And *sigh* we will never know for certain what Moriarty meant in calling Mycroft "The Iceman."

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your first question.  Stupid of me, of course you recall when they were said.

 

During Baskerville, Mycroft had Moriarty locked up.  It was then he supposedly told Moriarty about Sherlock in exchange for information.  That would be pretty freakin' cold, giving up your brother like that.  My theory has always been that Mycroft and Sherlock started planning Moriarty's demise the minute Adler was defeated.  And that part of it was convincing Moriarty there were estranged.  (And I do have a link: The Holmes Boys: Stalking Moriarty)

 

Anyway, that is where I would speculate the Iceman name came from, the time of Moriarty's confinement when he had relatively frequent contact with Mycroft.

 

[Julia Mae]

 

/>

 

Is Mycroft the Iceman? You'd have to ask Moriarty exactly what he meant and we can't because, yanno, he's dead!

UNLESS, we get a TARDIS!!! Then we can go back in time to when he was alive and ask him!

 

Except, that's kinda not gonna happen...

 

 

Yeah, I was kinda joking around, but...  Remember in Canon Moriarty has a brother.    I fully expect that person to make an appearance, though as I have said, it would be so in keeping with the show to make him a sister.  Who knows what James may have said before he died or written in a journal someplace?  We might get a bit of time-travel out of Mofftiss, yet! 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Remember in Canon Moriarty has a brother.    I fully expect that person to make an appearance, though as I have said, it would be so in keeping with the show to make him a sister.

OK, Watson's brother Harry became John's sister Harriet -- any other sex changes?  Hmm, yes, there was Dr. Stapleton in "Hounds."  Was there ever a male Sgt. Donovan in canon?  Anybody else?

 

Interesting idea, Jim's sister.  If Harry became Harriet, who would brother James become?  There isn't any traditional feminine version of the name that I can think of, though there are a few women named Jamie these days.

 

[Julia Mae]

 

Remember in Canon Moriarty has a brother.    I fully expect that person to make an appearance, though as I have said, it would be so in keeping with the show to make him a sister.

OK, Watson's brother Harry became John's sister Harriet -- any other sex changes?  Hmm, yes, there was Dr. Stapleton in "Hounds."  Was there ever a male Sgt. Donovan in canon?  Anybody else?

 

Interesting idea, Jim's sister.  If Harry became Harriet, who would brother James become?  There isn't any traditional feminine version of the name that I can think of, though there are a few women named Jamie these days.

 

 

Interestingly, speaking as we are about gender re-assignment, modern female "Jamies" are not nicknamed generally for any longer version of a woman's name.  The name was popularized because of  Jamie Lee Curtis, born with hermaphrodism, whose wise parents waited for their child to become old enough to chose a gender before corrective surgery and chose a name that would fit either gender.

 

Of course, we all know Doyle screwed up and named both Professor and Colonel Moriarty "James."   They called James "Jim" or "Jimbo" on the show.  I think if a woman named "Jamie" shows up, it would be a delightful tongue-in-cheek way for the writers to pay homage to that.

 

[Liselle]

This is one of the things I found most interesting about this episode, the whole 'Iceman and the Virgin' thing.

With regards Sherlock being a virgin in the sexual sense, I go back and forth between agreeing that that's what it means, and then thinking it might mean more of a naive virginity, like Carol said. I understand completely why Sherlock's reaction to Mycroft saying 'how would you know' makes you think he might not be a virgin in the sexual sense, Carol; he definitely has a reaction to it, it's just working out what that reaction means. I have to say though, I tend to lean towards the opinion that the reaction was more a sort of surprise, and that kind of 'punched in the gut' feeling you get when an older sibling makes fun of you in front of your best friend. It would be interesting to see the script for that episode, because there was probably a direction given to Benedict to get him to react in that way specifically (slight raising of the eyebrows, etc.), or maybe he just decided to do that himself, but it would possibly give a clue as to whether there's any truth in the 'virgin' nickname. But yes, thinking about it, I would probably go along more with the idea that Sherlock really is a virgin, because Mycroft is the one person that would know him better than anyone else, and Mycroft would probably have a pretty good idea of Sherlock's romantic history. He could then have passed that information on to Moriarty (after all, he's supposed to have given Moriarty every little detail about Sherlock), and that's how Moriarty came up with the nickname.

 

As for Mycroft being 'the iceman', I think to most people he seems to be exactly that. The only time you see his more caring side is when he's either alone, or with Sherlock or John. I would imagine it's an important part of his job to act as though nothing bothers him; you have to be pretty cool under pressure to do what he does.

[Liselle]

http://ivyblossom.tumblr.com/post/38602205461/a-scandal-in-sexuality-sherlock-virginity-irene

 

This pretty much sums up the way I'm thinking (except for the part about Sherlock possibly being in a relationship with John; sorry but I absolutely can't stand that idea. Can't two guys live in the same flat and be very close friends without people leaping to the conclusion that they're gay all the time?!)

[Selena]

Can't two guys live in the same flat and be very close friends without people leaping to the conclusion that they're gay all the time?!)

No, they really can not. Girls, on the other hand, can hug, hold hands and kiss and no eyebrow is ever raised. What a strange world it is.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... thinking about it, I would probably go along more with the idea that Sherlock really is a virgin, because Mycroft is the one person that would know him better than anyone else, and Mycroft would probably have a pretty good idea of Sherlock's romantic history. He could then have passed that information on to Moriarty (after all, he's supposed to have given Moriarty every little detail about Sherlock), and that's how Moriarty came up with the nickname.

 

I hadn't really thought it through before, but you're probably right about that chain of events.  However, your post got me thinking, and I've reached the opposite conclusion regarding Sherlock.

 

As you say, Mycroft is "supposed to have given Moriarty every little detail about Sherlock."  But did he really?  My current guess is that he fed him a pack of very clever lies -- in which case, it seems probable that Sherlock is not a virgin, at least not in the usual sense.

 

Not that it's any of our business. 

 

[Liselle]

As you say, Mycroft is "supposed to have given Moriarty every little detail about Sherlock." But did he really? My current guess is that he fed him a pack of very clever lies -- in which case, it seems probable that Sherlock is not a virgin, at least not in the usual sense.

 

Good point Carol! Now that I think about it, I definitely can't see Mycroft completely revealing absolutely everything about a little brother he so obviously cares a great deal about and worries about so much to a man he knows is highly dangerous to said little brother. So yes, it's probable that Sherlock isn't a virgin. Like I said before; I swing back and forth between my idea on the subject; I'm open to either answer.

 

 

Not that it's any of our business.

 

 

On the contrary; we're his biggest fans! We derserve to know every little detail about him

 

[Julia Mae]

 

As you say, Mycroft is "supposed to have given Moriarty every little detail about Sherlock."  But did he really?  My current guess is that he fed him a pack of very clever lies --

 

Yes.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

  Poor John. He is going to be flabbergasted and crushed when this all comes to light.

[SH/LotR/Zelda Fan]

/>

Poor John. He is going to be flabbergasted and crushed when this all comes to light.

You couldn't be more correct. And maybe a bit annoyed too.

[Carol the Dabbler]

A bit?!  That must be a sample of the famous British understatement.

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

Can't two guys live in the same flat and be very close friends without people leaping to the conclusion that they're gay all the time?!)

No, they really can not. Girls, on the other hand, can hug, hold hands and kiss and no eyebrow is ever raised. What a strange world it is.

 

 

On the one hand: I would appreciate a good gay romance on mainstream TV.

 

On the other hand: Between Sherlock Holmes and John Watson? God no! That would simplify their unique whatevertheyhave to something commonplace and, as Sherlock himself would say, boring.

 

Because there are romances enough in fiction, millions, gazillions. But there are very few stories where a friendship is at the emotional center. And friendships are at least just as meaningful as romances. At least they tend to last longer. They can also be just as complicated as love affairs, involve as many layers and ambiguities and cause actual heartache when they go wrong.

 

The problem with the way most people nowadays perceive relationships (especially between two guys) is that there is too much emphasis on sex and too little on anything else. Like Irene, most people seem to see sex as the only way of being close.

 

(And before anyone starts to believe I have anything against sex: nope, nothing whatsoever. But it gets a little too much attention in fiction and there are so many other ways in which people can love one another.)

[T.o.b.y]

So yes, it's probable that Sherlock isn't a virgin. Like I said before; I swing back and forth between my idea on the subject; I'm open to either answer.

 

 

Not that it's any of our business.

 

 

On the contrary; we're his biggest fans! We derserve to know every little detail about him

 

 

Well, whatever we deserve or not, we won't ever find out, I think. Personally, I got the impression from the way he responded to Irene that Sherlock was more or less inexperienced in sexual matters. Like being drugged and beaten is all the thrills he will ever get in that department. At least he seemed to enjoy it...

 

If there was some kind of prior experience, it can't have been that great. I don't believe he is heroically keeping himself from some exquisite enjoyment just to protect his intellectual faculties. If that were the case, he would have stayed away from drugs (I've heard they can do a lot more brain damage than sex).

 

He probably has intentionally starved his emotional side though, rather than it's being underdeveloped. Who knows what horrible experiences he has had to come to believe that "alone protects me".

[Carol the Dabbler]

But does he really believe that "alone protects me"?  I think he says that as part of his hard-hearted "who gives a damn about Mrs. Hudson" routine, just to get John to leave before Moriarty shows up.  So he may or may not actually believe it.