The Ice Man and The Virgin

[T.o.b.y]

  As for Sherlock and his humor, I think as we have seen in the BBC Sherlock, he used it to through a smoke screen to cover his true feelings and to keep people at arm's length in looking to deeply into him and his past.

 

Absolutely! It would be only half as good to watch if he was purely funny. It's the combination of biting commentary and underlying seriousness (the "hidden fires", as Dr Watson would put it in his wonderful flowery language) that make this character so compelling.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

  So it really would be difficult to discount him having been deeply in love at one point. Only once or twice did Dr. Watson himself remark on how rarely did Holmes show his true and great heart, even to Watson himself.

[T.o.b.y]

I don't think Doyle took his character seriously enough to have a complete backstory for him in mind. Lots of the "hints" we or other people see in the stories are probably not there by intention. Of course that doesn't mean Doyle could not have subconsciously referred to a lot of events that were important to him while writing the stories. Also, because they were written over such a long period of time, his idea about Holmes probably changed during the process. He's more consistently portrayed than other characters, but still not entirely so.

 

Now, Sherlock is a totally different matter. There's a lot more work and thought behind his personality, he's not just there to make a quick buck and tell a crime story. Who knows what kind of secrets he's supposed to harbor. Who knows whether the creative team are even of one opinion on that.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think early on, Sherlock did matter to Doyle it's just after he lost his father then his son, the Spiritual movement caught his attention and so didn't his work on his historical novels and Holmes was getting in the way of these works that Doyle began to consider to be more important. Only then did he begin to tire of his detective and decide that he had to go.

[Carol the Dabbler]

  So it really would be difficult to discount him having been deeply in love at one point. Only once or twice did Dr. Watson himself remark on how rarely did Holmes show his true and great heart, even to Watson himself.

 

Watson had known Holmes for a number of years before learning that he had any living relatives at all, let alone a brother right there in London.  So I'd find it hard to justify discounting any theories about his past that have not actually been ruled out.  (And I shudder to find myself sounding a bit like Holmes, with his unworkable dictum about "ruling out the impossible.")

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

 I shudder to find myself sounding a bit like Holmes, with his unworkable dictum about "ruling out the impossible.")

 

 

It's not unworkable at all - try applying it to multiple choice questions!   I've heard Sherlock Holmes inside my head on many a test...

 

Very good point that just because Dr Watson didn't know about something, that is far from meaning it didn't exist. But still, if Doyle had meant to make Holmes a tragic figure haunted by a terrible past, he might have been a little more explicit about that. It's a lot more easy to believe in with BBC's Sherlock...

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yes, it's certainly a workable rule of thumb in an academic context, especially a scientific or mathematical one.  But just try in "real life" to distinguish between the highly improbable and the truly impossible.  Often we assume something to be impossible merely because we don't realize that we're not in possession of all the facts.

 

[T.o.b.y]

That's why Mr Holmes is often so emphatic about needing all the facts, or his words, all available data.

[Carol the Dabbler]

And all available data may not cover everything, even if we think it does.

 

[T.o.b.y]

That is why only Holmes' unique brain can turn this method to perfect account - and that only within the rules of fiction.

[T.o.b.y]

I wonder why one spends so much time trying to figure out Sherlock, while Mycroft is mostly taken for granted (or is it just me who does that)?

 

Mycroft is even more of a puzzle, because we see a lot less of him - we don't even know where he lives (and with whom, if anybody). He does come across as very cold, although I think he's being honest when he tells John he worries about his brother. He seems so glad to have John around as a go-between - dealing with Sherlock directly is obviously not his favorite chore. His observation "caring is not an advantage" probably applies the most to himself.

 

Somebody said not long ago that Mycroft looked "destroyed" at the club when he was reading the articles in the paper about Sherlock's death. I thought that was interesting, because to me, he merely looks thoughtful, as if he's trying to figure out what really happened. I do hope they'll go away from the source so far that we'll find out Sherlock disappeared on his own, but I do expect Mycroft found out he was alive pretty quickly.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

  I didn't think Mycroft 'destroyed" either. More...thoughtful....I think is a good word for it. But not like he was trying to figure out what happened, more pensive maybe. And when he adopts Sherlock's "steepled fingers under the chin" gesture it's like "okay maybe there is more to this then meets the eye."

[Carol the Dabbler]

Mycroft is even more of a puzzle, because we see a lot less of him - we don't even know where he lives (and with whom, if anybody).

 

My assumption is that he lives in the house where we see him in "Scandal," and that it's the old family estate.  We see no one else, however, not even servants, leading me to believe that Mycroft lives alone -- though he would presumably need some day help, since he doesn't seem the sort to do his own cooking, cleaning, and gardening.  The big question then is, what has become of Mummy?  I like to see her as having retired to the family estate in France (and who knows, she may show up in an episode someday).

 

He does come across as very cold, although I think he's being honest when he tells John he worries about his brother. He seems so glad to have John around as a go-between - dealing with Sherlock directly is obviously not his favorite chore. His observation "caring is not an advantage" probably applies the most to himself.

 

I think you're right.  I do believe I see emotion in his eyes, but (perhaps due to his elder-son upbringing) he sees expressing it as "bad form."

 

Somebody said not long ago that Mycroft looked "destroyed" at the club when he was reading the articles in the paper about Sherlock's death. I thought that was interesting, because to me, he merely looks thoughtful, as if he's trying to figure out what really happened.

 

I originally thought he looked grief-stricken at the club, but then I compared that scene to the one in "Scandal" where he finds out that Moriarty knows about "The Flight of the Dead" -- now that is distraught!

 

[T.o.b.y]

My assumption is that he lives in the house where we see him in "Scandal," and that it's the old family estate.  We see no one else, however, not even servants, leading me to believe that Mycroft lives alone -- though he would presumably need some day help, since he doesn't seem the sort to do his own cooking, cleaning, and gardening.  The big question then is, what has become of Mummy?  I like to see her as having retired to the family estate in France (and who knows, she may show up in an episode someday).

 

Mycroft using a vacuum cleaner or cooking? No, I definitely don't see that. And unlike Sherlock, who I am sure is happy living in a complete mess as long as it is his particular one, I think he needs everything to be just so. He must have at least a housekeeper. Maybe he does live with Mummy. He'd be just the type...

 

Another item for the wish list: tell the audience more about the "old scores" and "resentments" between those two brothers!

[Karie]

 

How do you think these nicknames origniated for Mycroft and Sherlock?

 

Do you think that they adequately describe them?

 

They originated when Irene Adler said them and attributed them to Moriarty.  I see no reason to believe she didn't quote him accurately.

 

Is Sherlock a virgin?  Quite possibly.  Although, it's also possible when he was young that he had a sexual experience and found out how much it affected his ability to think clearly, stay focused, do the work he loves more than anything.  Thomas Merton, the contemplative monk and mystic, had quite the active life at ... Oxford, I think... anyway, the story is  he left an illegitimate child behind when he entered religious life. 

 

I always think of Sherlock as this sort, in the world but not of it.  Or, like Spock, aware of how easy it is for his passions to consume him and so, eschewing all emotion.   IMO, as with classic canon, Sherlock is a heterosexual man who chose to give up romantic/sexual relationships in favor of total dedication to his craft.

 

Is Mycroft the Iceman?  You'd have to ask Moriarty exactly what he meant and we can't because, yanno, he's dead! 

 

 

 

I've seen several different theories on Sherlock's sexual history and his apparent lack of physical or romantic intimacy in his present life.  For example, he had a very serious (and maybe secret) lover and that ended badly, causing him to wall off his heart. Or, he was sexually molested at some point and has decided that sex and intimacy are things to be avoided. Or, he was originally interested in sex and dating in his younger years, but after much ridicule and bullying from his classmates, decided to give up on the pursuit (think the classic prank in which an unpopular boy/girl gets attention from a popular classmate of the opposite sex, is led to believe the classmate wants to be with them physically/romantically, only to be stood up or humiliated when said classmate steals his or her clothes and the other classmates jump out of the closet, laughing, with a video camera).  Maybe nothing that elaborate, but I wouldn't be hard pressed to believe that Sherlock was probably the victim of bullying at one point in his life. 

 

I go back and forth on which I believe.  Maybe Sherlock had some traumatic event that made him give up on love and sex.  Or maybe he's just always been so absorbed in the "brain work" that he never had time to be interested in anything else. (If you've seen the unaired pilot, his "Only the brain is important, everything else is transport!" comment.) Or maybe he just never found anyone who interested him enough to turn his head. I think a man like Sherlock would definitely need a certain type of partner. You hear about lots of people of superior intelligence who admit to loneliness and depression because they don't have anyone in their life who can actually think and understand things on their level.  It may have been hard for Sherlock to become attracted to any woman (or man) who he didn't see as an intellectual equal, and how many people do you think he's met in his life (who didn't turn out to be a criminal mastermind or serial killer) who he would qualify as such? 

 

I think, regardless of how much experience he may or may not have had in his past, or even his own unwillingness to consciously admit to himself that he might have some normal desires if he only allowed himself to stop and think about it, that his sort of magnetism toward Irene Adler and his (if desperately repressed) delight in her flirting do at least suggest that he does have the capacity to enjoy or be intrigued by a potential sexual or romantic relationship. As Mycroft said, he's a lonely man who couldn't resist having his ego stroked and showing off to a woman who showed interest (paraphrasing here). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the one hand: I would appreciate a good gay romance on mainstream TV.

 

On the other hand: Between Sherlock Holmes and John Watson? God no! That would simplify their unique whatevertheyhave to something commonplace and, as Sherlock himself would say, boring.

 

Because there are romances enough in fiction, millions, gazillions. But there are very few stories where a friendship is at the emotional center. And friendships are at least just as meaningful as romances. At least they tend to last longer. They can also be just as complicated as love affairs, involve as many layers and ambiguities and cause actual heartache when they go wrong.

 

The problem with the way most people nowadays perceive relationships (especially between two guys) is that there is too much emphasis on sex and too little on anything else. Like Irene, most people seem to see sex as the only way of being close.

 

(And before anyone starts to believe I have anything against sex: nope, nothing whatsoever. But it gets a little too much attention in fiction and there are so many other ways in which people can love one another.)

 

 

Everything you said here was absolutely perfect! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, whatever we deserve or not, we won't ever find out, I think. Personally, I got the impression from the way he responded to Irene that Sherlock was more or less inexperienced in sexual matters. Like being drugged and beaten is all the thrills he will ever get in that department. At least he seemed to enjoy it...

 

If there was some kind of prior experience, it can't have been that great. I don't believe he is heroically keeping himself from some exquisite enjoyment just to protect his intellectual faculties. If that were the case, he would have stayed away from drugs (I've heard they can do a lot more brain damage than sex).

 

He probably has intentionally starved his emotional side though, rather than it's being underdeveloped. Who knows what horrible experiences he has had to come to believe that "alone protects me".

 

 

I mentioned above about his comment from the unaired pilot, "Only the brain is important, everything else is transport!" But I never considered the drug abuse.  It's a very good point you make, that if he were so worried about the brain work, why would he have done something that could very well have caused extensive brain damage? I have wondered a lot about how the drug use started. Was it his way of acting out against emotional triggers, or was it another of those "it helps me to concentrate and think" things, like the smoking and nicotine patches? 

 

I agree that his "alone protects me" line had to have come from some pretty tragic circumstances. The whole "see how much they care... do you ever wonder if there's something wrong with us?" line suggests that they grew up in a very strict, cold household. Although Mycroft's reference to "mummy" and Sherlock's denial that he wasn't the one to "upset her" (suggesting he cared about her feelings) make me think that she, at least, was somewhat warmer to her sons. Perhaps Daddy Holmes was a real piece of work? 

 

 

 

 

Somebody said not long ago that Mycroft looked "destroyed" at the club when he was reading the articles in the paper about Sherlock's death. I thought that was interesting, because to me, he merely looks thoughtful, as if he's trying to figure out what really happened. I do hope they'll go away from the source so far that we'll find out Sherlock disappeared on his own, but I do expect Mycroft found out he was alive pretty quickly.

 

I think that may have been me. I still believe that Mycroft was genuinely upset in that scene, but I will admit that my perception may very well be biased due to the fact that I am a sucker for the whole "brotherly love" angle and am always looking for depth in the emotional minefield that is the Holmes family crest.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree that his "alone protects me" line had to have come from some pretty tragic circumstances.

 

Yes, that line had to come from somewhere, and Sherlock may well mean it in some sense and/or to some extent.  But his purpose when he said it in "Reichenbach" was to make John so angry that he'd leave (and of course he succeeded).  So as to how sincere he was being just then -- who knows?

 

[Karie]

 

I agree that his "alone protects me" line had to have come from some pretty tragic circumstances.

 

Yes, that line had to come from somewhere, and Sherlock may well mean it in some sense and/or to some extent.  But his purpose when he said it in "Reichenbach" was to make John so angry that he'd leave (and of course he succeeded).  So as to how sincere he was being just then -- who knows?

 

 

Hmm, good point. 

 

I was a little disappointed that John didn't see through that obvious facade. 

 

I'm also (and I think this every single time I rewatch the episode) confused as to why John, after getting a phone call that Mrs. Hudson had been shot (and who called him, by the way?), went back to the flat. If she really had been shot, wouldn't she have been brought to the hospital, where John already was? I assume it had to be Lestrade, Molly, or one of either of their staff (I'm assuming, since Molly was in on it, that she had one of her EMT friends call, or else Sherlock had to have maybe one of his homeless network make the call pretending to be some kind of emergency response person). So what, they said,"Hey, John, your landlady has been shot at your flat. She's dying. We're just going to hang out here while you get a cab and make your way over, OK?" 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I assume the phone call was purportedly from an EMT at the scene -- but presumably, as you say, actually from someone Molly knows.  In my (fortunately limited) experience, EMTs will generally try to stabilize the person before attempting to transport them, so that may be what was supposedly going on.  As I understand it, Bart's does not have an emergency room, so no, she would not have been brought there in any case.

 

And as for John being fooled -- hey, the poor guy hasn't had any sleep because he's been on the lam all night!

 

[T.o.b.y]

 

I was a little disappointed that John didn't see through that obvious facade. 

 

I know this is a thread about Sherlock and Mycroft, but I'll just point out anyway that that is what Dr. Watson is all about as a character. They did change him somewhat from the way he comes across in the source, made him more manly, less sentimental and less subservient to Holmes. But in essence, he is still the Dr Watson whose tales I love to read. And that man is the most gullible of people, because lying is so totally foreign to his nature. Holmes puts it this way:

 

"You won’t be offended, Watson? You will realize that among your many talents dissimulation finds no place (my italics), and that if you had shared my secret you would never have been able to..."

 

In this case, able to persuade somebody else that Holmes was on his deathbed, but it varies.

I think Watson was supposed to be so honest himself that he just wasn't capable of detecting a lie or an act in other people. Especially not his great idol, Mr Holmes. It is one of his many lovable traits (and I have never understood why people don't like the original Watson, I am glad he's finally done justice to by Freeman's great performance).

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Bart's is a teaching hospital, so as Carol said, she couldn't nor wouldn't have been taken there.

[Karie]

I assume the phone call was purportedly from an EMT at the scene -- but presumably, as you say, actually from someone Molly knows.  In my (fortunately limited) experience, EMTs will generally try to stabilize the person before attempting to transport them, so that may be what was supposedly going on.  As I understand it, Bart's does not have an emergency room, so no, she would not have been brought there in any case.

 

And as for John being fooled -- hey, the poor guy hasn't had any sleep because he's been on the lam all night!

 

 

Thanks for that! I had no idea Bart's wasn't set up to receive traumas. I was assuming that, if she was really that bad off, she would have been quickly transported or airlifted, but maybe things work differently there. 

 

Good point, I forgot that they had spent the night being chased all over London. 

 

 

 

I was a little disappointed that John didn't see through that obvious facade. 

 

I know this is a thread about Sherlock and Mycroft, but I'll just point out anyway that that is what Dr. Watson is all about as a character. They did change him somewhat from the way he comes across in the source, made him more manly, less sentimental and less subservient to Holmes. But in essence, he is still the Dr Watson whose tales I love to read. And that man is the most gullible of people, because lying is so totally foreign to his nature. Holmes puts it this way:

 

"You won’t be offended, Watson? You will realize that among your many talents dissimulation finds no place (my italics), and that if you had shared my secret you would never have been able to..."

 

In this case, able to persuade somebody else that Holmes was on his deathbed, but it varies.

I think Watson was supposed to be so honest himself that he just wasn't capable of detecting a lie or an act in other people. Especially not his great idol, Mr Holmes. It is one of his many lovable traits (and I have never understood why people don't like the original Watson, I am glad he's finally done justice to by Freeman's great performance).

 

 

 

 I think you've really hit the nail on the head. John is definitely an honest, tender-hearted soul.  And I guess it's probably even harder for him to imagine that Sherlock, whom he holds so dear, would deliberately do something so upsetting as fool him into believing Mrs. Hudson was shot and dying. That's not something Sherlock would really give a lot of thought to, but is something that John, on the other hand, would not have considered doing to Sherlock.  Sherlock doesn't really think about how something is mean or hurtful, if it serves his purpose and doesn't have lasting damage, but John is more considerate. 

[T.o.b.y]

I've just read "The Illustrious Client" for the first time (I used to ignore the youngest Holmes stories because I thought they weren't any good for some stupid reason). It is a very interesting story, because it breaks the rule that Holmes is always invincible and it shows him actually trying out the method of taking Watson somewhat into his confidence and telling him to lie to the enemy and play a part. Now for the really interesting bit: It goes terribly wrong. The bad guy sees through good old Dr Watson almost immediately and the situation gets very dangerous for him, even though Holmes and a woman I would love to see as a character on the show manage to distract the villain just in time.

 

So, I guess Holmes was right, as always. His friend is such a straight-forward, honest soul that he is simply no use unless he believes in whatever needs to be conveyed to anybody. And talk about being considerate: Dr Watson actually almost cries over the enemy's terrible wounds after he's been attacked with vitriol and offers comfort as well as first aid to the man who was going to kill him a moment before.

[Sherlock_luvr]

At the end, (and forgive my poor brain I haven't seen this episode in a while. May remedy that tonight..) When Irene, Sherlock and Mycroft are in Mycrofts (I assume?) house, she relays what Moriarty calls them. 'The Iceman' and 'the Virgin'. She talks for a bit more and then Sherlock says . "No. Close but no." I think he's referring to that nickname.  Close but not quite a virgin. Thoughts?

 

I do think she thoroughly obliterated that nasty little moniker after he rescued her in Karachi, tho...

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've always thought Sherlock meant that Irene had come very close to outwitting him, Mycroft, and the entire British government -- but had not actually succeeded.  Here's the context from Ariane DeVere's transcript (I have stripped out the "stage directions" in order to highlight the dialog):

 

MYCROFT: And here you are, the dominatrix who brought a nation to its knees. Nicely played.
SHERLOCK: No.
IRENE: Sorry?
SHERLOCK: I said no. Very very close, but no.  You got carried away. The game was too elaborate. You were enjoying yourself too much.

 

Note that Sherlock first says "No" right after Mycroft says "Nicely played."  Then he expands on his "No" as you quoted him.

 

No idea what happened in Karachi, though. 

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

All we do know about Karachi is what BC said at a "Scandal in Belgravia" round table, "That only one man knows what happened and it was romantic."