The A.G.R.A. Files

[Slithytove]

Sherlock is bigger and stronger than Mary but she is a professional killer, presumably able to dispatch people who are physically stronger than herself. Furthermore, he has just suffered an extremely serious injury and should be in a hospital bed. It's doubtful she would need a gun if she met him in that condition.

 

In reality, of course, there is no way that a victim of such a major trauma would be scrambling out of a window and running around London (let alone moving furniture!). Another hefty suspension of disbelief required.....

[Arcadia]

I'm interested in what you're saying, but having a little trouble figuring out which part of it is the "new theory" that you're test driving -- that Moftiss have turned impressionist? Or did I miss something?

Yeah, that's what I meant ... that all the vagueness is a stylistic choice. I've been operating under the assumption that the assorted plot devices were ... well, lazy writing. But if you turn it around and assume it's deliberate, a specific style of storytelling, it's possibly quite brilliant ... it becomes clear that it's a mystery of the heart, not the mind. And looked at it that way, it feels right, at least to me. I'm just not used to it, particularly in a pop culture product. And it could be that my first assumption is actually the right one; they simply goofed. But the "impressionist writing" idea just fits so well, so for the time being I'm trying it out.

 

If I want to be cynical about it (ME?) it's a sort of "have your cake and eat it too" approach ... you can write just about any damn thing you want, and then if people don't get it, just tell them the problem is their perception, not your writing. But if it's a genuine attempt to be artful, then we just have to wait until the product is finished before we can tell if it works or not. Right now, S3 is working pretty darn well for me, it has definitely become my favorite of the three. But not on a intellectual level; it's all about the feels, man. When I engage it intellectually (as is more natural to me), it's still pretty darn frustrating!

[Arcadia]

 

But did she really think she was going for a meeting with Sherlock, where she would need negotiating tools such as the flash drive? As far as as she knew, Sherlock did not know she would be able to find him when she went hunting for him. From her point of view, he had fled into hiding and she was going after him with a gun. It was Sherlock who turned their meeting into a negotiation.

She was clearly looking for Sherlock, and went hunting for him. She obviously took her gun with her. However, if Mary had taken the gun for the express purpose of killing Sherlock for good this time, then why didn't she just fire away as soon as she saw the figure in the chair? (That mere thought gives me the willies!) I realize that a lot of people think of guns strictly as evil things, but they can also be used for self defense, so maybe that's why Mary took hers -- after all, Sherlock is far bigger and stronger than she is. Since she didn't go in shooting (thank heaven!), then perhaps she actually was looking to negotiate, or reason with Sherlock, or something along those lines.

 

I would think she'd take her gun with her for the same reason John would (and he may have had it on him, folks, we don't know) --- she didn't know what she'd be walking into and she wanted to be prepared for anything. She probably had it on her when they rescued John from the bonfire, too. John probably had his when they went to investigate the elephant in the room. People who carry guns, carry guns, it's not necessarily a signal of intent.

 

Maybe that's the same reason she had the thumb drive? She was, like a good girl scout trying to be prepared for anything?

[Arcadia]

One of the interesting things about the whole Mary shooting Sherlock things is the old question of "If your friend's spouse was cheating and you knew it, would you tell them or let them figure it out?"

 

Sherlock's response to the whole shooting was to expose it to John the first chance he got, but he needed John to hear it for himself rather than be told by Sherlock....

 

So I really respect Sherlock for stepping in and saying "This problem needs to be exposed.  Now."

Yeah, I think this is more the point of the story than what Mary is/isn't would/wouldn't do. Her character's not written to interfere with their relationship, it's written to reveal their relationship. Unfortunately for her.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

The one thing I don't get the feeling of is that nothing about Sherlock is sloppy writing. Yes, there has been that accusation flying around since day one. But with as much detail as they put into it, right down to the music sequences, I'm thinking that they really just might know what they're doing with this series.

[sfmpco]

I would say there's not a single word misplaced in their scripts but how each person interprets may be a little different.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Who was it that said: You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

[Slithytove]

 

 

But did she really think she was going for a meeting with Sherlock, where she would need negotiating tools such as the flash drive? As far as as she knew, Sherlock did not know she would be able to find him when she went hunting for him. From her point of view, he had fled into hiding and she was going after him with a gun. It was Sherlock who turned their meeting into a negotiation.

She was clearly looking for Sherlock, and went hunting for him. She obviously took her gun with her. However, if Mary had taken the gun for the express purpose of killing Sherlock for good this time, then why didn't she just fire away as soon as she saw the figure in the chair? (That mere thought gives me the willies!) I realize that a lot of people think of guns strictly as evil things, but they can also be used for self defense, so maybe that's why Mary took hers -- after all, Sherlock is far bigger and stronger than she is. Since she didn't go in shooting (thank heaven!), then perhaps she actually was looking to negotiate, or reason with Sherlock, or something along those lines.

I would think she'd take her gun with her for the same reason John would (and he may have had it on him, folks, we don't know) --- she didn't know what she'd be walking into and she wanted to be prepared for anything. She probably had it on her when they rescued John from the bonfire, too. John probably had his when they went to investigate the elephant in the room. People who carry guns, carry guns, it's not necessarily a signal of intent.

 

Maybe that's the same reason she had the thumb drive? She was, like a good girl scout trying to be prepared for anything?

John goes armed when he knows he will be up against a dangerous enemy. Sherlock never threatens Mary with violence, or even capture. The situations are not comparable.

 

If you shoot someone and nearly kill them, and they apparently run and hide from you, and then you track them down with a gun, I think it would be hard to convince a jury that it wasn't done "with malice aforethought."

[T.o.b.y]

The one thing I don't get the feeling of is that nothing about Sherlock is sloppy writing.

 

No, I can't see any sloppiness in it either. They really make the most of their limited time, and the episodes are interwoven beautifully, even across series.

 

 

 So I really respect Sherlock for stepping in and saying "This problem needs to be exposed.  Now."

Yeah, I think this is more the point of the story than what Mary is/isn't would/wouldn't do. Her character's not written to interfere with their relationship, it's written to reveal their relationship. Unfortunately for her.

 

 

I love Sherlock anyway in His Last Vow. This is a grown-up version of him I can truly get used to. During the whole John and Mary scene, he is finally the great Mr Holmes of old, handling other people's problems while quietly and unobtrusively bleeding to (near) death. And I love him for finally involving John and showing him the truth, instead of just dealing with Mary behind his back and then trying to make up John's mind about her for him.

 

And yes, poor Mary is more of a plot device than a character, it seems. I can't say I mind that so very much, but I'd still really like to know her full story, I'd like to understand her.

 

 

If I want to be cynical about it (ME?) it's a sort of "have your cake and eat it too" approach ... you can write just about any damn thing you want, and then if people don't get it, just tell them the problem is their perception, not your writing. But if it's a genuine attempt to be artful, then we just have to wait until the product is finished before we can tell if it works or not. Right now, S3 is working pretty darn well for me, it has definitely become my favorite of the three. But not on a intellectual level; it's all about the feels, man. When I engage it intellectually (as is more natural to me), it's still pretty darn frustrating!

 

 

Feels are important. I don't mind a story that is more about emotional truths than logical problems, if they are truths, and not just cheap tear-triggers. I love how Sherlock handles all that. It is never simple.

 

 

In reality, of course, there is no way that a victim of such a major trauma would be scrambling out of a window and running around London (let alone moving furniture!). Another hefty suspension of disbelief required.....

 

Well, Sherlock is slightly superhuman. He feels real, but he's not a realistic character. His whole world is not really realistic. But it rings true nonetheless.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And a person hopped up on drugs, even just running on adrenalin have been reported to be able to do amazing feats of endurance. Like the mom lifting a full size car because her child has been trapped underneath it.

[sfmpco]

When it comes to anything physical, it's always 90% mental and 10% physical.  Sherlock's brain would tell him he could do anything.  His brain is his driving energy force, and that brain pushes his body further than it should be going...and the body eventually couldn't keep up and he collapsed.  He pushed himself to his limit.  He had a task to do and stayed as mentally on target as he could, and when his task was done, his body was done.  

 

I agree that I like the more grown-up version of Sherlock in this episode.  Things have forced him to grow, not the least of which was having to give that best man speech, which for a person with Asberger's would be practically mortifying.  And yet he triumphed in his awkward way.  He put a piece of his heart out there by composing music for the wedding, and then playing it in public.  He showed interest in Janine... I don't think he was playing her yet... he really wanted to dance with her but once again was the odd man out.  That's how he feels in social situations anyhow.  Janine had become a little bit of a buffer zone for him and at the end he didn't even have that, but there was still growth.

 

By the time we get to HLV, I can't see him as the old Sherlock of jumping with glee because there's a murder and the game is on... I think he may have lost some of that glee for the "game" after TRF.  You play the game with Moriarty enough and that will destroy the "fun" for you for a lifetime.  So there's growth there too.

 

There's that little bit on the bench when they are watching the guards in TSOT:

 

SH: Your previous commander, Sholto.
JW: “Previous commander”.
SH: I meant “ex”.
JW: “Previous” suggests that I currently have a commander.
SH: Which you don’t.
JW: Which I don’t.
SH: ’Course you don’t. 

 

And yet we know perfectly well that Sherlock has been the new commander in his life, and that is no more evident that when Sherlock asserts himself as the leader in the whole Mary Watson mess at Leinster Gardens.  Sherlock orchestrates everyone being at his parents' house for Christmas Dinner, and at the end he is the commander who takes the fall to save his troops.  

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yes, I can see that growth as well. For me is started with the death of the old lady in "TGG".  He tries to make light of it to John when they are back at 221b and he says something about: technically I won...then they have the whole "just so I know, do you really care" discussion.

 

 Before, it had been a game and he had been able to stop people from being blown up. Even a boy with only 10 seconds to go. He had solved the problem. There was no reason for that woman and twelve people to die. He wasn't bored and he wasn't going to play the game by Moriarty's rules any more. Moriarty played way to rough and Sherlock didn't like it. Which could have been a childhood trigger. When people started playing rough, being cruel, then Sherlock began to fight back. Maybe before he would just withdraw into his own tiny world....but not now.....not any more.

[Arcadia]

The one thing I don't get the feeling of is that nothing about Sherlock is sloppy writing. Yes, there has been that accusation flying around since day one. But with as much detail as they put into it, right down to the music sequences, I'm thinking that they really just might know what they're doing with this series.

I hope you're right. Frankly, there's so little to judge by ... only 9 episodes! Most shows are still establishing what their characters are like at that point!

 

I guess experience has just made me wary, so many shows that start out brilliantly (lost) go off the rails (lost) .....

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think one of the differences for me is, these two characters are already so well established and the writers are such devout fans and doing so well about bringing them off the written page that I am just fascinated and amazed by it all.

 

 Moffat and Gatiss are putting so much time, talent and effort into this whole project and just not churning them out to make the big bucks or to satisfy either the demands of the fans and BBC and if the numbers aren't lying then they are doing a bang up job of it. The number of followers just keep growing.

[sfmpco]

I wish the numbers of followers would grow more here in the USA.  I hardly know anyone who has seen it.  I'm finally getting an upstairs neighbor to watch it, but I definitely feel like a lost and alone Sherlockian in Los Angeles.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yeah, it seems that US is lagging in that perspective....not sure why. Downtown Abby brought in more viewers then Sherlock did this last viewing season on PBS. But Sherlock was followed by over 3 million viewers not to shabby. I'm not sure how Elementary is doing in that way. Either there are to many people who can't get past the London of gaslights and fog or there aren't enough people who like Sherlock Holmes no matter how you slice it.

 

Though I have read on line that there is a big division between the fandoms of Elementary and Sherlock....you practically have to hate the one to love the other. The same with the fandoms of the Victorian portrayals and the modern.....utter nonsense. Totally utter nonsense...but that's human beings for you.

[Arcadia]

John goes armed when he knows he will be up against a dangerous enemy.....

???? -- John went armed to Christmas dinner at the Holmes' house!

 

No, people who believe it's okay to use a gun to solve problems will take their gun anywhere they can, I'm afraid. Although to carry one into someone's house during Christmas would be considered quite inappropriate in many places, even here in the good old USA. Heck, even John thought it was inappropriate, and he's the one who brought it!

[sfmpco]

John brought his gun to Christmas dinner because Sherlock asked him to, so he had to think there was a reason for it, although he initially denied that he brought it, one of the funny bits.

 

SH:  Did you bring your gun as I suggested?

JW:  Why would I bring my gun to your parents' house for Christmas dinner?

SH:  Is it in your coat?

JW: (grudgingly) Yes!

 

LOL.  Can't fool Sherlock!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yes, he did simply because Sherlock asked him to bring it. He probably wouldn't have except for that. He wasn't carrying it when he first meets Sherlock and they go to Brixton. So no, it doesn't seem like John is carrying at all times.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oops...posted at cross purposes with sfmpco.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sherlock is bigger and stronger than Mary but she is a professional killer, presumably able to dispatch people who are physically stronger than herself. Furthermore, he has just suffered an extremely serious injury and should be in a hospital bed. It's doubtful she would need a gun if she met him in that condition.

 

In reality, of course, there is no way that a victim of such a major trauma would be scrambling out of a window and running around London (let alone moving furniture!). Another hefty suspension of disbelief required.....

 

In the Nero Wolfe detective novels, Wolfe's legman Archie Goodwin always carries his gun when investigating a murder, having learned the hard way.  Similarly, Mary may always carry a gun when she's "on a case," due to her early training.

 

Even though this episode seems nothing like "Blind Banker," parts of it do indeed require the same sort of suspension of disbelief.  Close examination of details may not be rewarded in this case, unlike with some episodes.  I'm starting to think (worry?) that Arcadia may be right about "impressionistic writing."  Even though the emotional scenes are generally my favorite parts, I definitely do NOT want them added willy-nilly at the expense of logic.  They need to spring organically from a logical framework, or the viewer flounders.  Art must mimic life, but it doesn't dare BE life.

 

The one thing I don't get the feeling of is that nothing about Sherlock is sloppy writing. Yes, there has been that accusation flying around since day one. But with as much detail as they put into it, right down to the music sequences, I'm thinking that they really just might know what they're doing with this series.

 

I suspect that what's behind a number of what we see as problems isn't lack of thinking, but rather overthinking -- e.g., I suspect that "Empty Hearse" tries to explain too much, and they'd have been better off letting us deal with more of the details ourselves.  Also, Moftiss can't seem to resist adding just one more canon reference, even if it makes the story a little awkward -- e.g., insisting that Lukis's killer enter through a skylight in "Blind Banker" and giving Mary that bizarre flash drive in "Last Vow."

 

[Arcadia]

Yeah, it seems that US is lagging in that perspective....not sure why. Downtown Abby brought in more viewers then Sherlock did this last viewing season on PBS. But Sherlock was followed by over 3 million viewers not to shabby. I'm not sure how Elementary is doing in that way. Either there are to many people who can't get past the London of gaslights and fog or there aren't enough people who like Sherlock Holmes no matter how you slice it.

 

Though I have read on line that there is a big division between the fandoms of Elementary and Sherlock....you practically have to hate the one to love the other. The same with the fandoms of the Victorian portrayals and the modern.....utter nonsense. Totally utter nonsense...but that's human beings for you.

I think the format works against it in the US. I've talked to several people who have said things like "oh yeah, I need to watch that, when is it on?" and can't believe there's only been nine episodes in four years. Downton, on the other hand, is on 24/7 (or so it seems to me; I can't escape the damn thing!) If a show's not on the same time every week all year, many people won't put the effort into seeking it out.

 

Being on PBS doesn't help either; some people refuse to watch "that liberal propaganda machine", and anyway not every area of the country has PBS.

 

And believe it or not, some Americans can't understand British accents. My mom for one; "Why are they talking like that?" she once asked me. "Because they're British, Mom." "Well, I can't understand a word they're saying." (To be fair, she didn't grow up hearing it on TV the way I did.)

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I know people who have watched it....liked it. But they're not wanting to talk about it twenty four/seven either.

[Arcadia]

LOL, good point.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Thank goodness for forums, laptops and smartphones.