General Tolkien Discussion (books, movies & TV)

[T.o.b.y]

Because I have nothing better to do at the moment, here are a few pictures from my favorite scenes in the Lord of the Rings films:

 

 

For the few who have never seen or read Lord of the Rings: This is not what it looks like! I just love how Boromir is mourned, even though he was so far from being a regular "good guy". He was an average human asshole, and a fighter killed in a battle, like thousands before and after him, yet his death is still portrayed as tragic and sad. And I like that. I like the idea that Boromir was a loss, that his life was valuable. I always cry buckets at that scene. (It's basically the only scene where I like Aragorn. I'm not a big fan of his in general, to put it mildly).

 

 

Oh my god, this scene was so scary.

 

And finally:

 

 

I admire Galadriel more for being tempted by the ring and resisting it, than people like Faramir for never showing an interest. I like characters who struggle with their dark side. I love Galadriel for having a dark side. On the one hand, she's this embodiment of light and holiness, and on the other, she's got a very sinister potential. That really appeals to me.

[Arcadia]

For the few who have never seen or read Lord of the Rings: This is not what it looks like! I just love how Boromir is mourned, even though he was so far from being a regular "good guy". He was an average human asshole, and a fighter killed in a battle, like thousands before and after him, yet his death is still portrayed as tragic and sad. And I like that. I like the idea that Boromir was a loss, that his life was valuable. I always cry buckets at that scene. (It's basically the only scene where I like Aragorn. I'm not a big fan of his in general, to put it mildly).

You know, don't you, that some people think "this" is supposed to mean exactly what it looks like? As does Sam's devotion to Frodo. Or Merry and Pippin's friendship. Which would have had JRR spinning in his grave. Set him and ACD next to each other, and you could power a city block.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Merry & Pippin are cousins.  Trying to make them anything closer than that relationship-wise, totally agree that would have Tolkien spinning in his grave (and probably CS Lewis too as he helped convince Tolkien to publish LOTR).

[T.o.b.y]

 

You know, don't you, that some people think "this" is supposed to mean exactly what it looks like? As does Sam's devotion to Frodo. Or Merry and Pippin's friendship. Which would have had JRR spinning in his grave. Set him and ACD next to each other, and you could power a city block.

 

No, I didn't know, but I'm not a bit surprised by this time. (Spending a sleepless night on AO3 really disillusions you as to the limits of a fandom's imagination).

 

Somehow, it bothers me a lot more in this case of the LoR characters than it does with Sherlock. I mean, Doyle would have only himself to blame, even though I bet he never intended anything. He just wasn't a terribly good writer, and he did put a few passages in his stories that kind of invite misinterpretation. But Frodo and Sam? Ugh. Come on. For some reason, I think that is kind of cruel, like fantasizing about children in an erotic way. Probably because Hobbits are so childlike. Although, on the other hand, I don't object one bit to Sam and Rosie (quite the contrary) and I am very aware where their large number of offspring came from. My brain doesn't always make a lot of sense.

 

I don't want to start this whole rant we've already had elsewhere all over again, but can a fighter in a fantasy film really not mourn a fallen comrade without the audience thinking they must have been sleeping together? Gosh, I'd better not kiss my parents good night in the company of those people...

 

[Arcadia]

A result of our times, I'm afraid. Gestures of trust, respect, honor all lose value when perceived through the modern lens of carnality.

[T.o.b.y]

A result of our times, I'm afraid. Gestures of trust, respect, honor all lose value when perceived through the modern lens of carnality.

 

I'm beginning to feel vaguely ill. All those times I've gone out to dinner with my father - did other people assume I was his young mistress or something? Ugh. Especially since he likes to refer to me as "the lady" in public, as in "the lady will have..." Next time, I'll make sure to begin a sentence with "Dad", loudly, the moment we enter the restaurant.

 

[Arcadia]

I know what you mean, sometimes I see people looking at me walking arm in arm with my mom, and find myself wondering what they think they're seeing ...

[Carol the Dabbler]

I prefer to believe that people who think those sorts of things are merely bored, and are therefore amusing themselves with their own fertile imaginations.

 

Too bad they can't be more like us. 

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I don't think that thought has crossed my son's mind yet & he still grabs my hand with fingers interlaced. (Not sure where he got it from but will let it continue as he's almost a teenager and it could end without warning.)  When my brother & I were teenagers, we were eating at a local fast food restaurant and saw some of his classmates from where we were sitting.  We could also hear them, but they couldn't hear us.  So we found out that they thought my brother (he's 4 years older than me) was on a date.  We had a good chuckle.

[T.o.b.y]

Anybody in need of cheering up? Here you go. I had a very long, hard, exhausting day and really needed this right now:

 

 

My favorite part is the one with the Hobbits. I remember cheering at the cinema when I saw that for the first time.

[Arcadia]

Found this: https://twitter.com/crazyformf/status/757097430026375169

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Now the question of the day:  Did Dominic ever say why Merry, Pippin, & Aragorn were together again?  I saw a picture similar to the last one they took together that someone else rt'd on twitter.

[Arcadia]

No idea. Maybe they're filming the appendices? ;)

[Carol the Dabbler]

September 22nd:

 

Happy Birthday to Bilbo Baggins (and Frodo Baggins)!

 

[Arcadia]

This should be an international holiday.

[Carol the Dabbler]

This should be an international holiday.

You mean it isn't?

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've been wondering about Bilbo's personality, in the sense that I don't think we have much data on it. The Hobbit (book) has a rather patronizing attitude toward him, I think, and so doesn't take him as seriously as we might hope. LotR (book) treats him more like a real person, but there we see only the ring-obsessed and post-ring Bilbo, whereas I'm thinking more of what he must have been like during The Hobbit (especially the later chapters) and into the 60-year stretch between books -- what might be called "classic Bilbo." I'm willing to consider input from the six Jackson films as well, though even his Hobbit isn't particularly Bilbo-centric.

 

Judging by The Hobbit (book), it seems safe to say that he's empathetic. (He weeps over other people's misfortunes more than once, as I recall.) Once he puts the Shire behind him, he's brave (but not reckless). He's painfully honest. He thinks fast on his feet, and can go outside the box.

 

What else do we know? What can we surmise? Does he have a sense of humor, for example?

[Arcadia]

Hobbits love to laugh, as I recall. And comfort. And I think in that much, at least, he's a typical hobbit.

 

Tolkien does say he loves maps, though, and wonders what's beyond the edges of them. So that "Tookishness" was already stirring in him before any dwarf ever showed up at his door.

 

I don't think the book was patronizing, precisely ... but I seem to recall Tolkien based hobbits largely on the everyday sort of folk who don't care much about the wide world, or education, or proper language, or dreams ... all the things he cared about passionately.  But ... he was also in awe of how these same dull people could turn out to be so loyal, smart and heroic on the battlefield, and as I understand it, that's where "our" hobbits, especially Bilbo and Sam, came from. (I think Frodo was a different sort of hobbit altogether.)

 

Bilbo's consistently shown as pretty wily, too, don't you think? Their journey's barely underway before he outsmarts the trolls, and later, Gollum.

 

Then after he came back from Erebor, I gather he was deemed rather eccentric due to all the strange folk he hung out with.

 

Oh, and he's basically selfless, or he wouldn't have resisted the ring as long as he did.

 

That's all I got for now!

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree with you in general.

 

The prolog to LotR says "... laugh they did, ... often and heartily, being fond of simple jests....". Of course, that's hobbits in general. Bilbo was considered an odd duck, and I can't offhand think of a single instance of him laughing. Can you?

 

The wiliness you mentioned is what I meant by him being able to think fast on his feet (sometimes even outside the box). So I agree there as well.

 

I do think The Hobbit (but not LotR) was a bit patronizing in spots. Bilbo is supposed to have written it, and Frodo likewise with LotR, and I'm willing to believe that they did. But both have clearly been translated -- in fact, what we have may be translations of translations (and so on). And of course they've been edited, perhaps none too gently. The third-person narrator of The Hobbit seems to think of Bilbo as a cute, funny little fellow, while the tone of LotR is far more respectful. Some of the difference may simply be due to the authors' styles, but I ascribe it mostly to the books being translated and edited by different people. The Hobbit's narrator clearly thinks of the book as a children's fairy tale, whereas the LotR's narrator looks on that book as a heroic adventure. Next time I read The Hobbit, I'll have to mark the spots I consider patronizing, 'cause I can't offhand think of any specifics.

[Arcadia]

Hmm, sense of humor ... no, I can't remember him laughing (but I can't believe he doesn't.) But since he spent most of The Hobbit dodging creatures who would happily kill and eat him, maybe he didn't laugh so much when we were looking. Still...how about the notes he left on his gifts when he left Bag End? That took some humor, yeah?
 
There's spots in the Hobbit and in the first 3rd or so of Fellowship that I feel are overly "cute", maybe those are the same things you find patronizing? Although I've always thought those bits were also meant to serve as contrast; the hobbits start out rather provincial and end up rather sophisticated (at least, compared to other hobbits. )

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, right -- those notes were hilarious! So yes, he clearly does have a sense of humor.

 

Maybe we're talking about the same scenes (patronizing vs cute). We can each post some examples and then compare. But no rush!

[Arcadia]

My copy is sitting next to me as we, er, speak.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'd like to get back to this discussion, but just ran across some news that I don't believe has been posted here:

 

Tolkien's various versions of Beren and Luthien have been cobbled together into a finished form by his son Christopher (who did likewise with the Silmarillion a few decades ago). It will be published this coming year.

 

This love story takes place thousands of years before The Hobbit, in what is a mythical age to the characters that we already know.

[Caya]

Now that's great news, thank you! I always loved their tale, romance *and* an intelligent, brave hound. And wasn't Galadriel already around back then? Iirc, she was one of the Noldor returning from the West.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Dunno about Galadriel. The article that I read mentioned that Sauron (no, not Dayton, dammit!) is a *minor* baddie.

 

It may depend on which sections of which of his father's versions made the final cut.