Janine

[Arcadia]

I do find it ironic, given Irene's choice of profession and how she dresses at times, that I don't find her trashy or oversexualized.  To me she's as Toby said, striking.  She's glamorous, cosmopolitan, exotic.  She's the female equivalent of Sherlock to me.  Maybe because of her self-confidence and independence?  And yet I find Janine crude.  Go figure.  

Interesting. I find Irene oversexualized in the sense that she sees everything through the lens of sex .... much the same way I feel about popular culture. It's not always trashy or vulgar, but it is skewed, in my opinion. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know? But not to someone like Irene. Or at least that's the impression I have of her.

 

Janine, crude? Yeah, I can see that word applied to  her, although I find it a bit strong. Again, she's just ... ordinary ... to me. So yeah, crude in that sense. Unrefined. Again, interesting .... I think I just discovered I do, in fact, have a vestige of the American middle-class disdain for "refined!" Let's see, I dislike wine snobs; check. Sneer at McMansions; check. Mistrust anyone who looks as polished as Irene; check. Yep, it's confirmed ... I'm a redneck!!!!

[sittything]

 

I do find it ironic, given Irene's choice of profession and how she dresses at times, that I don't find her trashy or oversexualized.  To me she's as Toby said, striking.  She's glamorous, cosmopolitan, exotic.  She's the female equivalent of Sherlock to me.  Maybe because of her self-confidence and independence?  And yet I find Janine crude.  Go figure.  

Interesting. I find Irene oversexualized in the sense that she sees everything through the lens of sex .... much the same way I feel about popular culture. It's not always trashy or vulgar, but it is skewed, in my opinion. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know? But not to someone like Irene. Or at least that's the impression I have of her.

 

Janine, crude? Yeah, I can see that word applied to  her, although I find it a bit strong. Again, she's just ... ordinary ... to me. So yeah, crude in that sense. Unrefined. Again, interesting .... I think I just discovered I do, in fact, have a vestige of the American middle-class disdain for "refined!" Let's see, I dislike wine snobs; check. Sneer at McMansions; check. Mistrust anyone who looks as polished as Irene; check. Yep, it's confirmed ... I'm a redneck!!!!

 

 

I guess crude does sound a bit harsh.  I just mean it in the sense of unrefined.  Maybe I should have used that instead.

 

It's funny, I think because I grew up lower-class, 1st generation college student, I've always tried to distance myself from that life I grew up in to the point that I don't have a general disdain for the refined life.     I'm certainly not refined, never will be, but oh how I'd love to be!   

[Arcadia]

Yep, definitely a Molly here, with no aspirations to be anything else. (She says defiantly.) Well, okay, I'm a little more self-confident than she is. So, on the Molly-Janine spectrum, then. :D

 

Wait ... we're forgetting Mary! Yeah, I could aspire to be a pre-HLV Mary. Okay, put me on the Molly-Mary spectrum, but well away from the bamf end. I have no desire to shoot anyone, no matter how much they "deserve" it.

[Arcadia]

It's funny, I think because I grew up lower-class, 1st generation college student, I've always tried to distance myself from that life I grew up in to the point that I don't have a general disdain for the refined life.     I'm certainly not refined, never will be, but oh how I'd love to be!

It's like that quote from Bono (in the recent Rolling Stone article, I think?) -- he says something like: "in America, you see the mansion on the hill and think, yeah, I could have that some day. In Ireland, you see the mansion on the hill and think, yeah, I'm gonna get that bastard!" And I'm thinking, I got news for you Bono, some of us Americans think that too! :D

 

Maybe it's because I was raised middle-class but annually slip further into the lower..... ? Perspective does have everything to do with where you stand, doesn't it?

[T.o.b.y]

Oooh, good observations. Big Like, especially the end there. I guess, in my heart of hearts, I just want Sherlock to become a real boy someday.

 

What?!? NOOOOOOO!!!!! Oh dear, I bet you liked the ending of "About a Boy", too. Did you? :P

 

   there's something about her self-confidence and intelligence that I admire, I don't admire the uses she puts it to. She makes her way in the world, but it's all done by stepping on other people. No, I'll stick with the ordinaries; the Janine's and Molly's of the world; and feel good about it.

 

 

Is Irene really self-confident, though? Audacious, yes. Outrageous. An adventurer, a gambler, an able player in The Game, just like Sherlock and Moriarty (those three could be triplets...). But truly self-confident? No more than Sherlock, I'd say...

 

I perceive Irene as pretty fragile, somehow. I wouldn't necessarily call her a strong woman. And I know she'd laugh in my face for this (if not grind the heel of her Manolos in my face), but I feel sorry for her. Well, concerned. And I still don't think she lost to Sherlock in the end. I think she won, and I am happy for her when he shows up in the nick of time to fight the terrorists, because that means that finally, somebody loves her. At least a bit, at least as far as Sherlock Holmes can love. Do you think any of her lovers, let alone customers, would have done that for her? I don't.

 

In a way, the ending of A Scandal in Belgravia mirrors that of A Study in Pink. Sherlock was willing to die if he was wrong. Irene was willing to die if she wasn't loved. (Yes, I do believe that she could have somehow survived somehow out there on her own if she had really, really wanted to. Somebody has to believe in Irene...)

 

By the way. Irene Adler is not necessarily a prostitute. Just saying. I wouldn't mind if she were, and I bet that for the right price, monetary or otherwise, she'll sleep with most people, but "recreational scolding" does not have to involve sex.

 

 

It occurred to me after I wrote that this morning that Moftiss have actually done a really wonderful thing in a fictional universe that is not exactly known for being populated by a great number of well-developed female characters:  they've given the viewers someone for everyone.  Generally, although I wouldn't claim a one-to-one correspondence, I would say that on most days I feel somewhere on the Janine to Irene scale.  I've never, ever felt like Molly; I love the character, I love the actress, but I just can't identify.  So bravo to Moftiss for allowing the range of female experience in their work.

 

Yes, indeed!

 

In my mind, I am like Molly. I even look like Molly. Give Molly an extra 20 pounds, blond hair and a pair of glasses, and you've got me, pretty much. Okay, and a less lovable face. I see myself in her all the time, I feel for her and "with her", and I've been in situations with men just like she is with Sherlock, only they weren't half as cool and didn't appreciate me one bit. I even considered becoming a pathologist briefly at one time in my life (before I knew Sherlock, of course, I don't go so far as to base my life on my favorite TV characters!), but then I decided living creatures were even more interesting.

 

If you asked other people, though, I think they'd say I'm more like Mary. I am much better than Molly at hiding how shy I am. I guess like Mary, I hide my true self behind a facade. Only my true self is not a CIA trained assassin... :lol:

 

One day, I hope to be like Mrs Hudson.

[sittything]

 

It's funny, I think because I grew up lower-class, 1st generation college student, I've always tried to distance myself from that life I grew up in to the point that I don't have a general disdain for the refined life.     I'm certainly not refined, never will be, but oh how I'd love to be!

It's like that quote from Bono (in the recent Rolling Stone article, I think?) -- he says something like: "in America, you see the mansion on the hill and think, yeah, I could have that some day. In Ireland, you see the mansion on the hill and think, yeah, I'm gonna get that bastard!" And I'm thinking, I got news for you Bono, some of us Americans think that too! :D

 

Maybe it's because I was raised middle-class but annually slip further into the lower..... ? Perspective does have everything to do with where you stand, doesn't it?

 

 

I'm just so happy to be genuinely middle-class now!  Even if it shrinking.  I've arrived!   Pass the wine.  ;)   

 

John Oliver said roughly the same thing on one of his shows talking about the increasing wealth gap.  Said it's what he loves about us Americans, we're so optimistic that one day that's gonna be us. 

[sittything]

 

   there's something about her self-confidence and intelligence that I admire, I don't admire the uses she puts it to. She makes her way in the world, but it's all done by stepping on other people. No, I'll stick with the ordinaries; the Janine's and Molly's of the world; and feel good about it.

 

 

Is Irene really self-confident, though? Audacious, yes. Outrageous. An adventurer, a gambler, an able player in The Game, just like Sherlock and Moriarty (those three could be triplets...). But truly self-confident? No more than Sherlock, I'd say...

 

I perceive Irene as pretty fragile, somehow. I wouldn't necessarily call her a strong woman. And I know she'd laugh in my face for this (if not grind the heel of her Manolos in my face), but I feel sorry for her. Well, concerned. And I still don't think she lost to Sherlock in the end. I think she won, and I am happy for her when he shows up in the nick of time to fight the terrorists, because that means that finally, somebody loves her. At least a bit, at least as far as Sherlock Holmes can love. Do you think any of her lovers, let alone customers, would have done that for her? I don't.

 

In a way, the ending of A Scandal in Belgravia mirrors that of A Study in Pink. Sherlock was willing to die if he was wrong. Irene was willing to die if she wasn't loved. (Yes, I do believe that she could have somehow survived somehow out there on her own if she had really, really wanted to. Somebody has to believe in Irene...)

 

By the way. Irene Adler is not necessarily a prostitute. Just saying. I wouldn't mind if she were, and I bet that for the right price, monetary or otherwise, she'll sleep with most people, but "recreational scolding" does not have to involve sex.

 

 

Yes, I think you're right that Irene's self-confidence is about as legitimate as Sherlock's, which is not very.   A lot of bravado, huh?

 

You've almost made me ship them Toby.  lol  I'm feeling all emotional over here at the bolded.  Won't someone just love her?!?!  Although, they'd be a mess together.

 

[T.o.b.y]

You've almost made me ship them Toby.  lol  I'm feeling all emotional over here at the bolded.  Won't someone just love her?!?!  Although, they'd be a mess together.

 

A complete and utter mess :lol: That's why I like their (not-)relationship, I guess. I don't really want Sherlock to have a girlfriend at all, but if he has to, a totally F***ed up on-and-off disaster with Irene would be best suited to my taste.

 

One thing is for sure, Sherlock and Irene had some kind of magic happening between them that I never in a million years see between him and Janine. But, as Janine said, she and Sherlock could be friends. Even friends with benefits, if he ever changed his mind on that head. But Irene Adler is The Woman. So there.

 

As for love of his life, I do think that's more or less John Watson. In a way. I mean, a best friend can totally be the love of one's life. The most important relationships in our lives are not necessarily the sexual ones.

 

 

[sittything]

 

As for love of his life, I do think that's more or less John Watson. In a way. I mean, a best friend can totally be the love of one's life. The most important relationships in our lives are not necessarily the sexual ones.

 

Oh, totally!  I dunno if anyone else here ever watched SATC, but it reminds me of what Mr. Big said about Carrie and the girls:  "You're the loves of her life, and a guy would be lucky to come in fourth." 

[Boton]

I am most definitely a Molly that aspires to Irene-level fabulousness.

 

You go, Sitty!  You're just a fabulous pair of shoes and a super-confident public persona away from fabulous, then!

 

(Note, I don't actually know how you project in public -- I kind of assume you're already confident, so that means you just need the shoes.   ;) )

[Arcadia]

What?!? NOOOOOOO!!!!! Oh dear, I bet you liked the ending of "About a Boy", too. Did you? :P

Damn straight!!! :D

Is Irene really self-confident, though? Audacious, yes. Outrageous. An adventurer, a gambler, an able player in The Game, just like Sherlock and Moriarty (those three could be triplets...). But truly self-confident? No more than Sherlock, I'd say...

Well, since I see Sherlock as (overly) self-confident too, I can't argue with you there! :P

But I get what you mean, I myself have said I sometimes think Sherlock has a self-esteem problem. Hmmm. Well, I guess I would say you can be confident in your own abilities (which Sherlock and Irene certainly are) and still have a rather low opinion of your own worth, which I kind of see in Sherlock. But I'm not convinced I see that in Irene.

 

By the way. Irene Adler is not necessarily a prostitute. Just saying. I wouldn't mind if she were, and I bet that for the right price, monetary or otherwise, she'll sleep with most people, but "recreational scolding" does not have to involve sex.

No, it doesn't, but to get paid for doing it is far creepier than prostitution, imho. Sorry, Irene.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I was the same way -- I was prepared to dislike Janine -- and I'm wondering why? I'm operating on memory here, but the only thing about her that I remember labelling "vulgar" in my mind was her opening remark -- "no sex, okay?" Somehow, from that, I leapt to the conclusion that she was, in fact, looking for sex. But if I take her statement at face value, the opposite is true -- she's letting him know up front she's not that kind of girl. But Sherlock assumes she is anyway, and keeps pointing out possible bedmates! I guess the fact that she plays along shows he wasn't that far off the mark, but still... I feel bad that I judged her so quickly, that wasn't fair.

 

Would you like a third possible interpretation?  I think she was simply joking -- under the assumption that Sherlock was aware of the bridesmaid / best man cliche.  But of course her joke fell flat, because Sherlock lives in a different world.

 

Let me also point out that dancing with the geeky fellow doesn't necessarily mean that she's gonna jump right into bed with him.  Nor does her abstract lack of interest in men with erectile dysfunction necessarily mean that she's primarily interested in sex, or that she's the sort of woman who'd rebuff an actual man for that reason if she already knew him and liked him otherwise.

 

I have to say, however: I have never, ever, felt like Irene Adler! :P  And I'm pretty sure I never will. Or even want to. Although there's something about her self-confidence and intelligence that I admire, I don't admire the uses she puts it to. She makes her way in the world, but it's all done by stepping on other people. No, I'll stick with the ordinaries; the Janine's and Molly's of the world; and feel good about it.

 

It occurred to me after I wrote that this morning that Moftiss have actually done a really wonderful thing in a fictional universe that is not exactly known for being populated by a great number of well-developed female characters:  they've given the viewers someone for everyone.  Generally, although I wouldn't claim a one-to-one correspondence, I would say that on most days I feel somewhere on the Janine to Irene scale.  I've never, ever felt like Molly; I love the character, I love the actress, but I just can't identify.  So bravo to Moftiss for allowing the range of female experience in their work.

 

Maybe this explains our range of reactions to both characters.  I'm probably kind of a mix between Molly and Janine.  Like Arcadia, I don't think I'd even care to emulate Irene.

 

[Arcadia]

Would you like a third possible interpretation?  I think she was simply joking -- under the assumption that Sherlock was aware of the bridesmaid / best man cliche.  But of course her joke fell flat, because Sherlock lives in a different world.

Oh yes, I'm sure she meant it as a joke. But it was a rather vulgar joke to make with someone you'd just met, I think it would've fallen flat even if he had known the cliche!

 

Let me also point out that dancing with the geeky fellow doesn't necessarily mean that she's gonna jump right into bed with him.  Nor does her abstract lack of interest in men with erectile dysfunction necessarily mean that she's primarily interested in sex, or that she's the sort of woman who'd rebuff an actual man for that reason if she already knew him and liked him otherwise.

Agreed.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Would you like a third possible interpretation?  I think she was simply joking -- under the assumption that Sherlock was aware of the bridesmaid / best man cliche.  But of course her joke fell flat, because Sherlock lives in a different world.

Oh yes, I'm sure she meant it as a joke. But it was a rather vulgar joke to make with someone you'd just met, I think it would've fallen flat even if he had known the cliche!

Definitely earthy, yeah! That sort of joke might go over OK in some circles, but even then it'd presumably be best if you already knew the person and their taste in humor.

 

[sittything]

 

I am most definitely a Molly that aspires to Irene-level fabulousness.

 

You go, Sitty!  You're just a fabulous pair of shoes and a super-confident public persona away from fabulous, then!

 

(Note, I don't actually know how you project in public -- I kind of assume you're already confident, so that means you just need the shoes.   ;) )

 

 

Boton, I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I have about as much of a chance as Molly with this Christmas bow in her hair....

 

 

I'd like to think I'm a little more socially graceful than Miss Hooper, but general descriptors of me are "cute" and "bubbly."  Not really how I think of Miss Adler.  ;)

[sittything]

So wait now... are Sherlock and Irene confident?  Is it all bravado?  Have we reached a group decision?  I keep waffling all over the place on this.

[Arcadia]

Yes, yes, and darned if I know! :P

 

I am gobsmacked .... how did I never notice before that Molly has a Christmas bow in her hair?!?!??!?

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Yes, yes, and darned if I know! :P

 

I am gobsmacked .... how did I never notice before that Molly has a Christmas bow in her hair?!?!??!?

 

I've noticed the bow the first time then ignored it after that.  So...

 

And I agree with the 3 answers as well.

[sittything]

I love Molly to pieces, but that whole outfit gives me second-hand awkwardness before the scene even really gets going:

 

1.)  she's overdressed

2.)  Christmas bow in hair

3.)  those earrings are as big as her head

4.)  bra straps, Molly, bra straps!

 

 

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

When I first saw the episode I didn't realize the black strap was from her bra then I realized that a few watches later. Even I know to use a strapless for that type of dress.

[T.o.b.y]

By the way. Irene Adler is not necessarily a prostitute. Just saying. I wouldn't mind if she were, and I bet that for the right price, monetary or otherwise, she'll sleep with most people, but "recreational scolding" does not have to involve sex.

No, it doesn't, but to get paid for doing it is far creepier than prostitution, imho. Sorry, Irene.

 

I wouldn't call either creepy. Sure, I can't imagine that kind of a job for myself (nobody would hire me, anyway), but in theory, if a woman finds either an acceptable way to make money, go right ahead, I'd say. My problems with prostitution are not so much moral as practical, because I very much doubt that many girls who work in that field really would choose to do so if they had other options, and because it is estimated that in my country, at least 50% of sex workers are being forced to do what they do.

 

Let me also point out that dancing with the geeky fellow doesn't necessarily mean that she's gonna jump right into bed with him.  Nor does her abstract lack of interest in men with erectile dysfunction necessarily mean that she's primarily interested in sex, or that she's the sort of woman who'd rebuff an actual man for that reason if she already knew him and liked him otherwise.

 

Well, it seems she was ready enough to jump into bed with Sherlock after a pretty short acquaintance... Only he wasn't! :lol:

Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you. Just because I don't get the chance to sleep around, and probably wouldn't like it if I did, I am far from condemning another woman's pleasures...

 

I love Molly to pieces, but that whole outfit gives me second-hand awkwardness before the scene even really gets going:

 

1.)  she's overdressed

2.)  Christmas bow in hair

3.)  those earrings are as big as her head

4.)  bra straps, Molly, bra straps!

 

My initial reaction to this was "who the hell cares".

 

You are right, of course. It's a terrible outfit in so many ways. But I want to hug the costume artist for it, because it is so Molly. It is so fitting that she looks unlike herself at a party, in dress-up clothes, and that she does not, in fact, have a good sense of how to dress up, even though she really tries. I see myself again, there. My party outfits tend to look even more awkward, and just like Molly, I do look best when dressed for work. Probably not prettiest, but most right, in my opinion, most dignified and comfortable.

 

Dear Molly, come, let us working girls unite! Who cares whether our bra straps show - you perform goddamn autopsies and I let people vomit on me for a living. How many can do that, hm? And for the record, I like your cardigans and blouses and loose-fitting trousers just fine. And you really are pretty. Very pretty. I bet it wasn't easy to tone down Louise Brealey's natural beauty enough for this role...

[Boton]

Wow, I sort of think I should clarify my statement a bit so no one in this group thinks I'm a lesbian dominatrix who manipulates and controls people with sex.....("Not that there's anything wrong with that." [/seinfeld]) 

 

What I identify with about Irene is her confidence, which I actually think is genuine, although I do think she's gotten herself in over her head with Moriarty and his ilk.  I identify with her ability to present herself as the person in charge of a given situation by using clothing and shoes and makeup and posture, because I definitely can present myself in "battle armor," although maybe not "battle dress."  I identify with her ability to make the rules for herself and how she will get by in the world and to have a general lack of concern for what people might think of those rules.  And I identify with her ability to experiences something sensually on one level while intellectually taking it apart and analyzing it on another.

 

With Janine, I identify with her spunk, and every day attention to beauty.  I also identify with her tendency to accidentally overshoot on a joke.  Saying "no sex now," to the best man and having the joke fall flat -- that's so much something that I would do.  I would think whoever I'm talking to understands the reference I'm making, and then realize after the fact that they missed it and I look like a bit of a fool.  I also identify with her ability to take someone like Sherlock who everyone else holds at arm's length and just not take them so seriously.  I've made some of the best friends that way.  And I imagine, working so closely with the head of CAM News, she encounters a lot of people of influence and has gotten somewhat used to doing so.

 

[T.o.b.y]

Wow, I sort of think I should clarify my statement a bit so no one in this group thinks I'm a lesbian dominatrix who manipulates and controls people with sex...

 

You're not?! But I thought... :P

 

We should dig out the "women in Sherlock" thread - this has kind of spiraled out into a discussion of all the female cast instead of just Janine, which I think is just great.

 

 

For no particular reason, I was wondering just now whether I would have shot Sherlock in Mary's shoes, and I am kind of horrified to realize that yes, maybe. I wonder whether they were foreshadowing that scene when Sholto warned them in The Sign of Three about "a gun in my hand and a lifetime of unfortunate reflexes".

 

Back to Janine... She strikes me as the most self-confident of all the Sherlock ladies, or at least the one who is most comfortable with her own self. I've got to admire that.

 

I wonder whether Molly knew or suspected that Sherlock had her for a girlfriend for a while. If so, she must have been pretty heartbroken. I mean, because Janine is so exactly the opposite of her.

 

 

[sittything]

 

I wonder whether Molly knew or suspected that Sherlock had her for a girlfriend for a while. If so, she must have been pretty heartbroken. I mean, because Janine is so exactly the opposite of her.

 

 

This always makes me really sad to consider.  :(

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

I wonder whether Molly knew or suspected that Sherlock had her for a girlfriend for a while. If so, she must have been pretty heartbroken. I mean, because Janine is so exactly the opposite of her.

 

 

This always makes me really sad to consider.   :(

 

 

Who knows, maybe Sherlock even went to Molly for relationship advice? If so, too bad we didn't get to see that. Oh my god, good thing I do not write (much...) fan fiction, that would make for one sad piece...