Janine

[sittything]

Is it wrong that I would feel justified in my dislike of Janine if she turned out to be a Moriarty?   :P   So I'm all down for her being from that clan...

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Is it wrong that I would feel justified in my dislike of Janine if she turned out to be a Moriarty?   :P   So I'm all down for her being from that clan...

 

 

No...If it's Moriarty's clan all would be good as we love to hate Moriarty where as CAM we just hate.

[Inge l-w]

And there is the added bonus that if she is a Moriarty, she can exact vengeance for both her brother's death and her own doubtful relationship with Sherlock by pretending to help Mary as the latter grows heavier with each passing day and eliminate both Mary and the embryo, because I think that killing a defenceless infant would be in nobody's plans, however dark they have hinted they want to make S4.

[Shadow Dweller]

I know that I would love to have Jamie Moriarty here. She is one h*ll of femme fatale and the type I think who can make JM/MH/JM pairing possible. Fellow professionals who happen to clash at times ^^

[Marieke]

actually, I think Janine is Moriarty. Not a sibling, but the actual mastermind. 

 

Look at the episodes again from that perspective and 'I know what kind of man you are' , 'you shouldn't have lied to me, we could have been friends' get a bit of a different meaning  ;)

 

Especially that last conversation in the hospital becomes very interesting from this point of view as well....

 

just throwing it out there! Team Janine has spoken  :D

[Boton]

So, over on the Molly thread, we were discussing the role of Sherlock's friends in his life.  I think Janine is a pretty important friend by the end of things, and I believe in a certain way she is the "only one who knows what [he's] really like."

 

I think she understands him sexually.

 

Now, this is not going to be a terribly popular opinion.  I think Sherlock was attracted to her from the minute he took her aside at John's wedding and tried to teach her to dance and started doing pirouettes in front of her. I think something about her inspired his honesty, such that he admitted he loves to dance.  And, once he decided to use her for the CAM case, I think she learned quite a lot about him, including the fact that possibly he was a virgin except for one night with Irene.

 

Sherlock and Janine had to be doing enough playing around that she would know if he were "having fun" or not, and I think he was.  I also think he needed an excuse to not sleep with her, and I don't think he was hiding disgust or distaste.  The first time Mr. Boton ever watched HLV, his immediate reaction was that Sherlock was too much of a gentleman to sleep with a woman he was also using for a case, and I agree.  I also think Sherlock was scared to really seal the deal, and that his inexperience and reticence played out in front of Janine in a way that was more honest than perhaps he intended.  I've never believed that his change of facial expression as he sees her off at the door of 221B ever meant anything more than the fact that he was putting his game face on and getting to work. I don't think he was put off by her in the slightest; I think he was having a great time, and this allowed him to connect with her in a fairly honest way.

 

Tl;dr:  I think what Janine knows about Sherlock is what he's really like sexually, and that's information that none of his other friends know.

[gerry]

If you think that Sherlock has had sex with Irene, why do you think only Janine knows Sherlock sexually?

[Boton]

If you think that Sherlock has had sex with Irene, why do you think only Janine knows Sherlock sexually?

 

Great question - don't know that I was terribly clear.  Let me try again now that coffee is on board.  :-)

 

I think Sherlock had sex with Irene.  Period.  Full stop.  In my own little head canon, it was fast and adrenaline fueled (after he saved her from beheading) and not a whole lot of personal connection.  I think it was mostly just Sherlock losing his virginity and Irene celebrating.

 

I think with Janine, they had plenty of time to get to know one another.  They shared a bed; they shared a bath at least once that we knew of and probably more than once. She wears his shirt to bed and she's there for breakfast often enough that she moves the coffee.  No matter what the ultimate goal regarding the case, they have an intimate relationship.

 

Janine got to know the little touches that Sherlock responded to and the ones that made him tense up and become nervous. She probably asked him why he didn't want to have sex if she was amenable, and the lie he might have told was probably closer to the truth than he intended. Maybe, if my head canon and my husband are right, he blurted out some version of "I just can't take advantage of you like that." To me, that fits with him divulging a love of dance, which is not a piece of information Janine needed and which exposed him to vulnerability, but he seems to be OK with that with her.

 

To me, all these little things mean that she knows what kind of man he is in that way that you know when you've shared a sexual relationship, even if intercourse didn't occur. To me, Molly was a first date, and Irene was the person to whom he lost his virginity, but Janine was his only sexual relationship.

[gerry]

To me, all these little things mean that she knows what kind of man he is in that way that you know when you've shared a sexual relationship, even if intercourse didn't occur. To me, Molly was a first date, and Irene was the person to whom he lost his virginity, but Janine was his only sexual relationship.

Admittedly I don't spend any time with headcanon on this show when it comes to sex or romance with Sherlock because there's like a 99.99% chance of it amounting to nothing onscreen but when it comes to Janine, I never got the impression that Sherlock gave her a second thought after she walked out of the hospital room in HLV. I also think he liked Janine but in a way guys like women they have one night stands with. They enjoy the moment for what it was but it doesn't mean much to them. Just fun. Because the majority of the time spent with her was him lying, I'm not sure what else to take from it. I have a hard time believing he was honest with her to the point of admitting his past sexual history, or lack thereof. I'd think he'd respond to her like he responds to John, with silence or deflection. Then again, I also didn't find admitting to her that he likes to dance that big a deal.

[T.o.b.y]

I respect your headcanon, Boton, but in my humble opinion, Sherlock was way too comfortable around Janine to have been truly intimate with her or opened up to her in any meaningful way.

 

This is based on my theory that Sherlock is indeed alarmed by sex and even more so by emotional intimacy. If he had let himself be vulnerable with her, he would never have been so cocky and smug about his conquest. Janine didn't unsettle him at all like Irene did nor does he show her any real tenderness like he does towards Molly - who, btw, can shake his composure quite a bit too, in a different way.

 

I wonder if his slightly old-fashioned notion of being "honorable" was the only reason he did not sleep with her. Perhaps he was aware that if he went that far, he would not be able to keep the whole thing fake. I don't think he wanted any kind of a real relationship with her beyond maybe a loose friendship.

 

Btw, I came across an older interview with Mr Moffat the other day where he said he didn't think Irene was interested in sex, it was just something she did to reach her goals. This strengthens my belief that while she and Sherlock definitely had something, it wasn't what we would file under "sex" but an alternative that stimulated these two people in a similar way that sex would us ordinary goldfish (This in turn reminds me of a play by Max Frisch where Don Juan is a mathematical genius. When he finds himself in a brothel, he asks the prostitute what people do there and she says "what they want" - so he pays her to play chess with him.)

[Arcadia]

I agree with the "Sherlock was too honorable to sleep with her" bit. Other than that, I realize now I don't really have much of a head canon on this subject. In light of John and Sherlock's conversation in TLD, I think it's less likely than ever that Sherlock ever slept with Irene ... and that's about as far as I get. 

 

Okay, so maybe I do have a bit of head canon ... I suspect Janine doesn't have a clue what Sherlock is really like; I think he's that good a liar ... ahem, actor. When I asked what she meant by she's the only one who knows what he's "really like," what I was wondering was what she thinks she knows about him. But on further reflection, I don't think there's any way to know that, since we only saw them together for a couple moments. Although she does indicate she's aware of the drug use, and seems to think it's a routine thing with him, not just "for a case."

[J.P.]

I'll just drop the lines cut from the hospital scene

 

SHERLOCK
I was waiting till we were married.
JANINE
That was never going to happen. I
would never have said yes.
She leans in, gives him a kiss on the forehead.


Just one thing. You shouldn’t have lied to me. I know what sort of man you are - but we could’ve been
friends.
A moment’s silence from Sherlock. If he’s capable of shame, this is as near as he gets. She turns to go.
SHERLOCK
Keep the beehives.
JANINE
I’m sorry?
SHERLOCK
If you like, I’ll teach you about bee-keeping.

JANINE
And that will make up for everything, will it?
SHERLOCK
No, but you might learn something about bees.
JANINE
I would never have married you. Not in a million years.
SHERLOCK
I know.
She looks at him. Ghost of a smile.
JANINE
Although, if we both get really old and saggy and nobody else wants us, what do you think?
SHERLOCK
Yeah, okay.
JANINE
Might as well. I’ve got a lovely cottage and you paid for it.
She’s going now. Over her shoulder.
JANINE
(From off)
I’ll give your love to John and Mary.
On Sherlock’s face. He likes her. Then, so suddenly, the warmth just disappears. Just drops away, in a moment. The cold mask is back.
He reaches up with his hand and turns off the morphine again.

 

[Artemis]

Btw, I came across an older interview with Mr Moffat the other day where he said he didn't think Irene was interested in sex, it was just something she did to reach her goals. This strengthens my belief that while she and Sherlock definitely had something, it wasn't what we would file under "sex" but an alternative that stimulated these two people in a similar way that sex would us ordinary goldfish (This in turn reminds me of a play by Max Frisch where Don Juan is a mathematical genius. When he finds himself in a brothel, he asks the prostitute what people do there and she says "what they want" - so he pays her to play chess with him.)

I'm curious what you are referencing. Was it this?

 

MOFFAT: Um, the thing about Sherlock Holmes is, you’ve understood nothing if you haven’t understood that sex, for him, is thinking. Right? ... He’s like a genetic experiment where they’ve wired up someone’s libido to the brain, instead. So he doesn’t really think in those terms. ... All he has to do is solve stuff. Um… So, it’s not - it’s not that kind of a relationship.

I came across that excerpt the other day but I wasn't sure of the context.

[Arcadia]

Hah, even the writer isn't sure what his character feels. :d

 

So, she knows he's not husband material. But maybe she's not looking for a husband. Not sure I'm enlightened yet, but that's okay. Glad they dropped those lines.

[gerry]

In light of John and Sherlock's conversation in TLD, I think it's less likely than ever that Sherlock ever slept with Irene ... and that's about as far as I get.

what about TLD would make you more or less sure about that?

[Boton]

Hah, even the writer isn't sure what his character feels. :D

 

So, she knows he's not husband material. But maybe she's not looking for a husband. Not sure I'm enlightened yet, but that's okay. Glad they dropped those lines.

 

I fully agree Janine knows Sherlock would not make a good husband.  But I wish they had kept the lines, if only to support my head canon.  

[Arcadia]

 

In light of John and Sherlock's conversation in TLD, I think it's less likely than ever that Sherlock ever slept with Irene ... and that's about as far as I get.

what about TLD would make you more or less sure about that?

 

 

Ummm, good question. I guess it's the way Sherlock talks about texting her ... he's comparing it to John texting, and "that's all it was" according to John. So I guess I extend that same thinking to Sherlock. 

 

 

Hah, even the writer isn't sure what his character feels. :D

 

So, she knows he's not husband material. But maybe she's not looking for a husband. Not sure I'm enlightened yet, but that's okay. Glad they dropped those lines.

 

I fully agree Janine knows Sherlock would not make a good husband.  But I wish they had kept the lines, if only to support my head canon.  

 

 

Selfish! :D

[Boton]

You know what would be fun - and this wouldn't support my head canon *at all,* but I think it would make for a great story.

 

Sherlock really is asexual. He's not going to have a sexual relationship with anyone, ever, and that accounts for some of his analytical distance from anything that has sexual overtones.  

 

Janine finds this out during the course of their "dating," somehow also establishing that he's not gay, and he's not just "not that into her," but sex just really isn't in the cards for him.  And the thing is, she doesn't care.  Yeah, "just once would have been nice," but she finds him entertaining and could really see him as a friend.  So, leave the deleted lines in place, but put that backdrop behind them, where she sees no point in marrying him, but she can kind of see having him as a companion in their older years.

 

I've read a few platonic Sherlock/John stories that work this way.  An asexual!Sherlock/Janine could be fun.  I'd like it, anyway, even if it isn't my particular take on the situation.

[Arcadia]

I do like them together, from the little I've seen of them. She handles his personality well, and he's pretty respectful towards her (as much as Sherlock is able to be. ) But I always have to wonder how much Sherlock enjoyed her company, and how much he just pretended to.

[T.o.b.y]

I think Sherlock likes Janine a lot better than I do. My feelings about him and her are exactly like Victorian Dr Watson's when told by Holmes that he was engaged to marry a housemaid (imagine "housemaid" in italics, my phone isn't smart enough for those). In that regard, I consider it a brilliant adaptation.

 

Don't think they ever would get married though, no matter how old and saggy they were. But she could become his substitute for Mrs Hudson some day. He will always need someone like that. Maybe he will rent the cottage from her in his old age and she will just keep on living there. Something like that. But I don't want to know about it.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Aww, I think that would be sweet!  (And if they happen to do a bit of snuggling, that's their business.)

[Artemis]

You know what would be fun - and this wouldn't support my head canon *at all,* but I think it would make for a great story.

 

Sherlock really is asexual. He's not going to have a sexual relationship with anyone, ever, and that accounts for some of his analytical distance from anything that has sexual overtones.  

 

Janine finds this out during the course of their "dating," somehow also establishing that he's not gay, and he's not just "not that into her," but sex just really isn't in the cards for him.  And the thing is, she doesn't care.  Yeah, "just once would have been nice," but she finds him entertaining and could really see him as a friend.  So, leave the deleted lines in place, but put that backdrop behind them, where she sees no point in marrying him, but she can kind of see having him as a companion in their older years.

 

I've read a few platonic Sherlock/John stories that work this way.  An asexual!Sherlock/Janine could be fun.  I'd like it, anyway, even if it isn't my particular take on the situation.

 

I think Sherlock likes Janine a lot better than I do. My feelings about him and her are exactly like Victorian Dr Watson's when told by Holmes that he was engaged to marry a housemaid (imagine "housemaid" in italics, my phone isn't smart enough for those). In that regard, I consider it a brilliant adaptation.

 

Don't think they ever would get married though, no matter how old and saggy they were. But she could become his substitute for Mrs Hudson some day. He will always need someone like that. Maybe he will rent the cottage from her in his old age and she will just keep on living there. Something like that. But I don't want to know about it.

 

This is actually exactly what my take on the Sherlock/Janine relationship has been.  I've always viewed Sherlock as being either gray/asexual or straight but celibate.  Either way, I don't see it ever changing for him, and this is the kind of relationship I envision them having.

 

 

[gerry]

Does Janine really strike you as the type that would be single and willing to do beekeeping as an older person? She didn't to me. That seems more like Molly doesn't it?

[T.o.b.y]

I dunno... People change a lot as they grow older.

[gerry]

That would be quite a personality evolution. Can't see someone changing that much.