The STAR TREK Connection

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks, Martina!  Shoulda known Diane Duane would have written something about that.

 

I'm puzzled by what seems to be an excerpt from the "Hounds" script.  (It's certainly not from Ariane DeVere's transcript.)  If it's for real, was she able to get hold of a copy because she's a reputable author?  But if it's the genuine thing, why does it refer to Henry as "Henry Baskerville"?  Maybe it's an early draft?

 

Reading this

 

 

... there are certainly themes that recur when Kirk is interacting with Spock (in terms of looking past the rigidity of logic toward ways to push out the boundaries of the envelope, or break some otherwise deadly paradigm to save everybody’s lives) and when McCoy is interacting with him (in terms of forcefully putting the emotional/ethical side of a situation and getting up in Spock’s face, sometimes quite rudely, until the message gets across to best effect).

 

 

... has triggered a thought.  I've already said that I think Cumberbatch's Sherlock isn't analogous to just Spock, that he strikes me more as a combination of Spock and Kirk (with John as McCoy).  But that Duane quote makes me wonder if maybe Sherlock isn't Spock at all -- as John says in TSo3, Sherlock isn't a problem solver, he's a drama queen.  By that reasoning, Sherlock is Kirk.  So who then is Spock?  Well, if the way to tell is to consider whose face John gets into -- I nominate Mycroft!  (Duane disagrees with that, making a good case for Sherlock as the Spock figure and John as a McCoy/Kirk combo.)

 

I love Duane's comments on how Watson and Kirk not only complement Holmes and Spock, but also enable them to become far more than they ever could have been on their own.

[Arcadia]

.... But that Duane quote makes me wonder if maybe Sherlock isn't Spock at all -- as John says in TSo3, Sherlock isn't a problem solver, he's a drama queen.  By that reasoning, Sherlock is Kirk.

Since you've brought it up --  I've always been puzzled by that line. Absolutely Sherlock's a drama queen, but how is he NOT a problem solver? Any thoughts on what that is meant to convey? I'm also confused by Sherlock's remark to Moriarty that he doesn't like riddles. Seems to me solving riddles and problems are what he thrives on, but I'm obviously missing some other meaning here. Help?

 

I would've said both Kirk and Sherlock are both -- drama queens AND problem solvers. That's the core of what Kirk does, isn't it -- use every resource, be it logical, emotional or unethical -- to find his way out of problems?

 

Wait ... actually, I don't think either of them are drama queens. Divas, perhaps, but not drama queens. Yeah.

 

BTW, I love the look on Sherlock's face when John calls him a drama queen ....  He's SOOO insulted!

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't know exactly what John means either, but it somehow makes sense to me.  Maybe it's a corollary to what Sherlock himself said in "Study in Pink" -- "That’s the frailty of genius, John: it needs an audience."

 

And Sherlock actually seems insulted when Sarah asks if he and John "solve puzzles for a living" (in "Blind Banker") -- so maybe he doesn't necessarily think of himself as a problem solver either -- or maybe he finds the word "puzzle" too frivolous?  He also complained to Mycroft (in "Scandal") that he's "used to mystery at one end of [his] cases. Both ends is too much work."  No, I don't know quite what to make of all this, but it does seem to add up to something.

 

As for Kirk (and I really must mention that when I said "Kirk" above, I meant specifically William Shatner's original character), he seems to be in charge of trying to charm people into doing things his way, and if that doesn't work, he may try to bamboozle or intimidate them.  But he generally seems to leave the logic department to Spock.

 

[Arcadia]

Oh, good, I'm not the only one .... er, puzzled.

 

Kirk's a charmer, yeah, but I think he's got a good head on his shoulders too (either version!) He's certainly more impulsive/instinctive, but those instincts are pretty solidly grounded in experience, he's not just making stuff up. He's a pretty astute observer of human nature, too, that's why his charm and intimidation often work. Oh, hey, I just described Sherlock! Kirk's a lot more socially adept, tho. (Who isn't?)

 

Aside from the womanizing, which makes him look incredibly immature and insecure, I think Kirk's a strikingly well-rounded individual, able to integrate the logic and emotion in appropriate amounts. And back in the 60's all the women were supposed to make him look manly. I don't know what their excuse is for the present incarnation, it's kinda creepy now.

 

I don't know where all that came from, I haven't thought about Kirk's character in years .... you all are corrupting me!!!

 

Meanwhile, back to Sherlock (because it's soooooooo mature of me to obsess about him instead) .... anyone else have an idea why it would be accurate to say he's NOT a puzzle solver? Cuz me not see.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Aside from the womanizing, which makes him look incredibly immature and insecure, I think Kirk's a strikingly well-rounded individual, able to integrate the logic and emotion in appropriate amounts. And back in the 60's all the women were supposed to make him look manly. I don't know what their excuse is for the present incarnation, it's kinda creepy now.

 

Well, maybe it's supposed to make him look immature and insecure?  Or maybe they call it refreshingly boyish?  In any case, it's canon (and vintage Roddenberry, at that), so I suppose they're stuck with it, at least for the time being.

 

I must say, anyone who thinks of John Watson as a womanizer should compare him to James T. Kirk -- especially the current incarnation, who can have a face-to-face conversation with a woman without realizing that she is NOT the woman he slept with just last night.  (While John merely suffers the occasional memory lapse over which girlfriend has the dog.)

 

[Arcadia]

 

 

 In any case, it's canon (and vintage Roddenberry, at that), so I suppose they're stuck with it, at least for the time being.

 

No they're not, it's a different time line! Maybe he'll settle down, marry Carol, have a whole string of kids, stay thin.

[Carol the Dabbler]

True, he could change, but Kirk was still a womanizer last we saw.  If they're going to change his character, something will have to cause the divergence.  Since this is a drama rather than real life, I assume they'd make the reason pretty clear to us.

 

[Arcadia]

Lurve....

[Carol the Dabbler]

Now, that would be a new and unique experience for young Mr. Kirk!

 

[Caya]

 

... stay thin.

 

. That was mean but funny .

 

I must say I don't mind Kirk's (old or new) womanizing ways. It seems to me a bit like Sherlock and John's relationship used to work in the first two seasons - Sherlock/Spock is John/Kirk's bae, and since there's no sex involved, they just farm it out elsewhere. Kirk, at least, is perfectly upfront about not wanting any kind of relationship but the horizontal kind (if we can take his flirting with Uhura as an example) and so is spared the angry exes that litter John's romantic path.

[Arcadia]

 

... stay thin.

 

. That was mean but funny .

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I must say I don't mind Kirk's (old or new) womanizing ways. It seems to me a bit like Sherlock and John's relationship used to work in the first two seasons - Sherlock/Spock is John/Kirk's bae, and since there's no sex involved, they just farm it out elsewhere. Kirk, at least, is perfectly upfront about not wanting any kind of relationship but the horizontal kind (if we can take his flirting with Uhura as an example) and so is spared the angry exes that litter John's romantic path.

 

So you think John wasn't looking for a relationship either?  He obviously felt that he had to put Sherlock first in certain cases (such as when he was likely to relapse), but I never got the feeling that was because all John wanted from a woman was sex.  More like he rarely got the chance for sex or anything else!

 

[Caya]

No, I actually meant it just the other way around (but I can see where I put that rather unclearly) - if John had followed the Kirk modus operandi, both he and his female companions would've been a lot happier. As he himself said, living together with Sherlock isn't particularly compatible with a stable relationship, and half a dozen angry girlfriends eventually agreed.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, to be absolutely fair, we don't know that they're all angry.  There's one (Jeanette) who is clearly frustrated/angry.  Then there's Sarah, and the one with the nose, and the one with the spots -- who may also be angry, or may have gotten a better offer, or may simply be tired of trying.  But yeah, I don't think he did any of the dumping!

 

As for John being happier in Kirk mode -- doesn't that amount to saying he'd be happier if he were a different person?

 

[Caya]

Would he be a different person if he gave up trying something that was impossible to obtain at that time? A less stubborn one for sure .

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sure, John could give up trying to find a relationship, but that wouldn't necessarily turn him into a happy-go-lucky Kirk.  More like a really depressed John, I would guess.  Maybe he needs to believe that a relationship is possible.

 

 

[Caya]

Denial Hope springs eternal? But you're right, he's not the type.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think most people believe that a relationship of some sort is possible. John never stopped trying. Never gave up. That, to me any way, speaks volumes about John. He wants a normal relationship and with a woman. It also points to and supports his claim that he, at least, is not gay. Not that I believe Sherlock is either. But it does lead me to think that if they had been John would not have been a flirt and living with a woman much less marrying her. Sherlock may be a healthy male, but for what ever reason sex doesn't appeal to him.

 

As for Kirk, I never really got why he was supposed to be so irresistible. Still don't really. But I do like the Reboot Kirk better then the old one, at least, so far any way.

[Carol the Dabbler]

The original Kirk was irresistible to women because Gene Roddenberry said he was.  It was in the script.  GR conceived of Kirk as an archetypal steely-jawed hero, the star of the show, the center of all attention (especially female).

 

I greatly prefer the reboot Kirk too.  He's got more personality.  And even though he sees himself as something of a lothario, women don't just automatically fall for him.  In fact, Uhura seems downright appalled by his womanizing.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh I know it was scripted that way.....but I just never saw Kirk being such. Or maybe the alien women were drawn to him because he was a novelty. Something different then the run of the mill variety of their own species....not my cup to tea but then....I'm not them either.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Moved here from another thread:
 

 

Thank you for the list, Arcadia . Unfortunately, ... they really didn't come close to Sherlock-John for me at all. Well, yeah, House and Wilson ... And Kirk-Spock of course, but well, even three seasons of Jurassic Trek and a handful of movies can only be stretched so far (though I must admit I never saw the animated series) ... and I have to admit that I find Kirk Senior annoying at times .

... apart from the Holmes reimaginings, no friendship except for Kirk-Spock has even come close, for me, to the bond that Sherlock and John used to share.

 

 

There really is something very Trekkian about Sherlock, isn't there? (Or possibly I mean something very Sherlockian about Star Trek.)
 
The animated series had good plots but kinda lame production values (it was produced in the sour spot between the end of classic Disney and the beginnings of computer graphics).  I recommend reading Alan Dean Foster's novelizations, if you can find them.  They're very well done.  Oh -- I see that they're available on Amazon (mostly from used-book dealers, but what the heck -- they came out about 40 years ago!).
 
P.S.:  You're not the only one who's often annoyed by Kirk Senior.  (I just love Chris Pine's reboot, though.)

[Arcadia]

Well, in the era they were made for, I don't remember being annoyed by Kirk. Although I was so young I probably didn't know why I should be! But I guess that's why I sort of give him a pass when I see him now.

 

Jurassic Trek!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, in the era they were made for, I don't remember being annoyed by Kirk. Although I was so young I probably didn't know why I should be! But I guess that's why I sort of give him a pass when I see him now.

 

 

Let me count the ways!     The two things that bothered me the most about Mr. Shatner's portrayal of Kirk were these:

 

1.  Although he's fully capable of turning in a really good performance, he really hammed it up in some episodes, apparently when the script didn't meet his standards.  While I often agree with his assessment, it seems to me that the rest of the cast were still giving it their best shot.  Besides, Shatner was presumably planning to cash his paycheck, so why not do the work?

 

2.  As the series progressed, I noticed that Kirk was taking over more and more of what the other characters used to do (and logically should have done).  He was explaining science to Spock, telling Chekov what the heading should be, and so on.  I wondered whether that might have been Shatner's doing, and the autobiographies of other cast members confirm that it was.

[Arcadia]

Oh. That. I thought you meant the character of Kirk was annoying...

 

 That might be why I don't read autobiographies....

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh. That. I thought you meant the character of Kirk was annoying....

 

 

Well, yes, the character was annoying to me, because I could see all of that in the performance (I didn't read the autobiographies till years later).  It made Shatner's Kirk come across as something of an obnoxious smart-ass, even though he clearly wasn't written that way, and presumably wasn't even intentionally played that way -- it apparently just sort of bled through from the actor's attitude.

 

By the way, I just love what Abrams and Pine have done with Kirk.  They incorporated a smart-ass attitude into the character in a very organic way, and it just makes him more lovable!