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Speculation: Moriarty...

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Speculation on Sherlock's arch enemy and on what we saw at the end of "The Reichenbach Fall"

Do we trust anything we see in this episode?

 

Was it real?

 

By that I mean Moriarty's death. Could he come back; and if so, how?

Psychotropic drugs, the power of suggestion?

Do we honestly trust that he is gone forever?

 

 

What are your thoughts?

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I don't think he is alive; the scene was too clear for there to be any doubt. I mean, if he had shot himself in any other way there might have been a chance, but the way he did it made me think there's no oher choice..

 

Although this reminds me of a comic I saw yesterday in tumblr: Moriarty did fake it, suddenly stands up and goes "surprise!" looks around for Sherlock and when he sees that Sherlock jumped he goes "Oh sh** he really did it O.O" XD

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Haha, I don't think I can type anything outside of a spoiler box for this thread!

 

 

There's no doubt in my mind that he is alive. I have a few reasons for this, they're all kind of inter-related, so please bear with me.

 

First, I need to draw attention to this video, that was posted on John Watson's blog (link on YouTube because I can't see it on the blog directly): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnMmAkc1LmM&context=C46340f7ADvjVQa1PpcFNssUNkpCfjNwR1PHfT5dEIqM7cPAdfVTE=

 

Dry your tears, listen carefully, the silence on a certain issue is deafening...

 

There is no mention of Moriarty's (or, in their minds, Richard Brooke's) body. They don't mention it. At all. They mention their version of the truth surrounding Moriarty, and they focus on Sherlock's death as an implied suicide. Why did they not say "Sherlock is believed to have murdered Moriarty before taking his own life"? Their bodies couldn't have been very far apart from each other, because even if my memory is faulty and they didn't fall from the same ledge of the hospital (it's been a while since I've seen the episode, my memory's a little faulty), they fell from the same building. Indeed, in the episode itself there are two things that I've noticed (well, one that was pointed out to me) to further add to the question "what happened to Moriarty's body?" - the front headline of the paper Mycroft is reading also says something along the lines of "SUICIDE" and not "MURDER-SUICIDE" or "DOUBLE-SUICIDE" or whatever, but also (unless my memory is wrong) after clip of Moriarty that we see right after he fell, bleeding on the pavement, we don't see him anymore or hear him being mentioned. Surely with everybody running to Sherlock's aid, somebody would have said "Look over here! There's another one!" Or, actually, surely people would have swarmed to Richard Brooke's aid after his own fall, there would have been a crowd gathered there already. (But that kind of plays with some of the other theories that the people that swarmed around Sherlock's body were actually part of the Holmes network so I won't go too much into that one.)

 

Also, on a simplistic level, I figure if Sherlock can fool John into faking that he's dead when John took his freaking pulse (I'm of the angsty opinion that it was Sherlock that John saw and touched, not a fake body, John was a doctor on the battlefield and would have been able to tell even if he was slightly disoriented, to great of a risk), then Moriarty can fake his own death too.

 

But, of course, I realize that this all isn't any hard evidence for "Moriarty is alive," it's all evidence saying "nobody's seen Moriarty's body after he fell." It could have been moved by somebody else (who, I wonder...?), it doesn't necessarily mean he's alive. But there's also the existential "Sherlock can't live without Moriarty and vice versa" thing happening that's playing with my psyche. I can't imagine the series continuing WITHOUT the elusive and seemingly all-powerful (or, maybe just insane) Jim Moriarty as an ever-looming presence in Sherlock's adventures. Right from episode one, we had a name and the feeling of "he's out there, somewhere." I can't see the show continuing without it. It COULD, mind you, I just... can't see it happening.

 

Edited by aSnowyEvening

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Do we really need to hide everything since we're at the "Spoilers, Speculations e rumors" part of the forum?

 

 

There is no mention of Moriarty's (or, in their minds, Richard Brooke's) body. They don't mention it. At all. They mention their version of the truth surrounding Moriarty, and they focus on Sherlock's death as an implied suicide. Why did they not say "Sherlock is believed to have murdered Moriarty before taking his own life"? Their bodies couldn't have been very far apart from each other, because even if my memory is faulty and they didn't fall from the same ledge of the hospital (it's been a while since I've seen the episode, my memory's a little faulty), they fell from the same building. Indeed, in the episode itself there are two things that I've noticed (well, one that was pointed out to me) to further add to the question "what happened to Moriarty's body?" - the front headline of the paper Mycroft is reading also says something along the lines of "SUICIDE" and not "MURDER-SUICIDE" or "DOUBLE-SUICIDE" or whatever, but also (unless my memory is wrong) after clip of Moriarty that we see right after he fell, bleeding on the pavement, we don't see him anymore or hear him being mentioned. Surely with everybody running to Sherlock's aid, somebody would have said "Look over here! There's another one!" Or, actually, surely people would have swarmed to Richard Brooke's aid after his own fall, there would have been a crowd gathered there already. (But that kind of plays with some of the other theories that the people that swarmed around Sherlock's body were actually part of the Holmes network so I won't go too much into that one.)

 

Also, on a simplistic level, I figure if Sherlock can fool John into faking that he's dead when John took his freaking pulse (I'm of the angsty opinion that it was Sherlock that John saw and touched, not a fake body, John was a doctor on the battlefield and would have been able to tell even if he was slightly disoriented, to great of a risk), then Moriarty can fake his own death too.

 

But, of course, I realize that this all isn't any hard evidence for "Moriarty is alive," it's all evidence saying "nobody's seen Moriarty's body after he fell." It could have been moved by somebody else (who, I wonder...?), it doesn't necessarily mean he's alive. But there's also the existential "Sherlock can't live without Moriarty and vice versa" thing happening that's playing with my psyche. I can't imagine the series continuing WITHOUT the elusive and seemingly all-powerful (or, maybe just insane) Jim Moriarty as an ever-looming presence in Sherlock's adventures. Right from episode one, we had a name and the feeling of "he's out there, somewhere." I can't see the show continuing without it. It COULD, mind you, I just... can't see it happening.

 

 

 

Moriarty didn't fall from the building, he shot himself on the roof so with everyone rushing on the ground to aid Sherlock, no one would think to go up on the roof to check for more bodies for some time.

 

...at least, I was 100% sure he was on the roof.

 

My bet is that Sherlock and/or however helped hims tage his death went and made Moriarty's body disappear so Sherlock wouldn't be accused of the murder (although fingerprints on the gun would have made him innocent...)

 

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Do we really need to hide everything since we're at the "Spoilers, Speculations e rumors" part of the forum?

 

 

 

 

Moriarty didn't fall from the building, he shot himself on the roof so with everyone rushing on the ground to aid Sherlock, no one would think to go up on the roof to check for more bodies for some time.

 

...at least, I was 100% sure he was on the roof.

 

My bet is that Sherlock and/or however helped hims tage his death went and made Moriarty's body disappear so Sherlock wouldn't be accused of the murder (although fingerprints on the gun would have made him innocent...)

 

 

 

Yep, you are correct, he shoots himself on the roof. And it looks like it is a very final thing indeed. And in the original stories Moriarty dies at Richenbach Falls... But I'm still wondering...

 

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Yep, you are correct, he shoots himself on the roof. And it looks like it is a very final thing indeed. And in the original stories Moriarty dies at Richenbach Falls... But I'm still wondering...

 

 

 

Whoops! I just watched the clip on YouTube. I was very confused when I watched the clip... it makes much more sense that he shoots himself on the roof. My mistake! Still, though, wouldn't the police have searched for clues on the rooftop to try to piece together why Sherlock jumped? At the very least, wouldn't they have discovered the blood Moriarty left behind, if not the body...? I'm still not certain he's gone for good. But, I haven't read any of the original novels, including Richembach Falls. If he's gone for good at the end of that, the seeds of doubt in my mind are indeed sprouting...

 

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Still, though, wouldn't the police have searched for clues on the rooftop to try to piece together why Sherlock jumped? At the very least, wouldn't they have discovered the blood Moriarty left behind, if not the body...? I'm still not certain he's gone for good. But, I haven't read any of the original novels, including Richembach Falls. If he's gone for good at the end of that, the seeds of doubt in my mind are indeed sprouting...

 

 

 

Well, if Lestrade is in on the truth, then Sherlock could have contacted him and made sure he was the one to check the roof out so that any stray blood left behind was found out, or simply Sherlock and his helper were very thorough when they 'cleaned up'. Considering how good Sherlock is at details, I'm sure he could have managed that.

 

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Well, if Lestrade is in on the truth, then Sherlock could have contacted him and made sure he was the one to check the roof out so that any stray blood left behind was found out, or simply Sherlock and his helper were very thorough when they 'cleaned up'. Considering how good Sherlock is at details, I'm sure he could have managed that.

 

 

Hmm... My mind goes back to how Lestrade was one of the three that was targeted. I have to wonder if Sherlock kept Lestrade in the dark, so as not to accidentally let on to the sniper following him (and thus contacting Moriarty) to know something was up? But, then, maybe Lestrade would have known for a signal to wait for and wouldn't be doing anything out of the ordinary until then...?

 

Good point about the thorough clean-up. Maybe that was one of the things Sherlock asked Molly with for help?

 

 

I do like these kinds of discussions! The really make me scratch my head in puzzlement and put the brain to work!

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Me too, they're a lot of fun! :D

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Discussions are indeed fun. I love it when other people mention something and I get this "oh, gosh, how did I miss that?" moment, and then my brain just go into overdrive with theories and... Yeah, well, you get the picture :lol:

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I'm hoping that Moffat/Gatiss follow the original stories, so far as Moriarity is concerned (well, in other things, too--but that's beside this point! ;) ). The rooftop scene was pretty graphic. Very graphic, actually. And underscored by Holmes' reaction of utter shock and horror.

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I don't believe he is dead. I know the original text and all the facts just tell me he isn't alive.

But I can't understand WHY HE DID IT before Sherlock.

I can't imagine that he was so stupid to make this mistake.

 

But I'm sure we'll see Jim in the new season. Perhaps memories or something like that.

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But I can't understand WHY HE DID IT before Sherlock.

 

That is something that's been bothering me... Rewatching that scene, he seems so... strange, and sort of susceptible to everything Sherlock is saying... It does bother me greatly, but I don't know what to make of it...

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That is something that's been bothering me... Rewatching that scene, he seems so... strange, and sort of susceptible to everything Sherlock is saying... It does bother me greatly, but I don't know what to make of it...

 

Sherlock drugged his tea. ;)

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Could be. After all, we know that's the only reason Sherlock ever made coffee for John...

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As graphic as this scene is, it is one of my favorites in "Reichenbach"--played perfectly by Scott and Cumberbatch....I'm going to miss that interplay, because the two actors are amazing together......But the character development...........

 

My take on it is that Moriarity commis suicide because he lost: he was convinced he'd won, by forcing Holmes' hand--if Holmes didn't commit suicide, then his friends would die. However, he slipped and revealed, as Holmes realized, that there was a recall. A mistake. That leads to one of the best scenes for Holmes--a match for "A Scandal in Belgravia," when he wreaks revenge on the CIA operative who dared to hurt Mrs. Hudson. "Reichenbach" is full of Christ imagery for Holmes, as well as the depictions of him as the avenging angel (in "Scandal," too, Moffat made sure we didn't miss it when he armed Holmes with the scimitar at the end)....The speech about "I'm not my brother" and "I'm not one of them" is chilling: Holmes is implacable and terrifying, and Moriarity understands he's lost--Holmes will get that recall....Moriarity is facing the wrath of God at that point. The only way he can win, he believes, is if he dies: no recall, no recourse for Holmes--Holmes will have to die in order to save his friends. So, Moriarity tries to force Holmes' hand again....not knowing that his ultimate "all in" was futile....

 

And I'll just add that I am so happy the "all in" is futile mostly because of Molly, the stalwart.

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The drugs is a good explanation.

I'm not trying read this riddle , because we all know Moffat and we never guess the answer, he is a troll of 80 level XD

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With regards to the missing body...Sherlock didn't know that Moriarty was going to kill himself so there's no way he would have been able to pre-arrange for Molly or Lestrade or anyone else to remove the body after the fall. As far as I can tell there wasn't any time space between their conflict, his phone call to John and the jump during which he could have made a call or sent a text to arrange such a thing...it was all a continutation. In The Final Problem which is the original canon story it's all inspired by/based on, Sebastian Moran is hanging around nearby and is the only one who sees what happens and knows that Holmes isn't dead. Maybe they're going to utilise that aspect and Moran will remove his boss's body...Another theory...notice that Sherlock drops his phone before he jumps. It's possible he had prearranged with Molly for her to come and collect the phone from the rooftop (for some reason that is at the moment unclear to us), and that when she came up to collect the phone she saw Moriarty's body and got rid of it so Sherlock wouldn't be accused of murder on top of being called a fake.

 

With regards to whether he's dead or not, Moriarty is definitely dead. A bullet in the head is pretty final, and I don't see how you could fake something like that. Also, he dies at the end of The Final Problem and doesn't make a return, unlike Holmes, so I'm pretty sure Moftiss will stick to that. Also, Moffat said in a recent interview that you can't keep bringing someone back because it gets boring and predictable. Having said that, he didn't COMPLETELY rule out a return for Moriarty - here's a link to the article - http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-03- … k-villains

 

Don't forget that in the canon Moriarty has a brother, also called James and apparently just as naughty. Moftiss also mentioned this fact in one of the audio commentaries, can't remember which. Personally, I think it would be a great cliffhanger ending to Series 3 to have Moriarty (or Moriarty's brother who has now taken over from him) reappear.

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I like the drug idea. Perhaps Sherlock drugged the apples as well. Apples aren't usually top of their shopping list are they? Surely the apple wasn't just taken so Jim could sit there and carve IOU into it? It ties in with the fairy tale imagery though, so maybe the apples are innocent.

 

Is Moriarty a drug user? Just a thought because of course in the ACD canon Sherlock is, to alleviate the boredom of everyday life. Moriarty too finds ordinary people "so boring" but when he appears as Jim from IT in The Great Game, he does have "tired clubber's eyes". He certainly acts in a very odd way thought the rooftop scene in Reichenbach . I know he IS odd but he seems to have enormous mood fluctuations in this scene.

 

I think the key to this episode is that it is actually about The Final Problem and not The Fall itself. Remember Moriarty says that is is all about "The Problem. Our Problem. The Final Problem". Part of the story of The Final Problem is started in The Great Game and it continues into the Reichenbach episode. He also says that "Falling is just like flying. Except that it has one permanent destination." he also says to Sherlock that he owes him a fall. So if a fall only has one permanent destination and Moriarty has had a fall already, then he's already down there; is Jim Moriarty a "dead man walking?" Does he just want to make sure that he takes Sherlock with him?

 

Just some thoughts to ponder over.

 

:)

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I know this is supposed to relate to Jim Moriarty and The Rekichenbach Fall but... Why does Moriarty leave his phone number for Sherlock in The Great Game? He even refers to it in the denouement in the pool. Am I missing something?

 

:)

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The only problem I have with Moriarty being dead...permanently... is that he died thinking he beat Sherlock. It was suppose to be this epic mind game between the two of them. But now Moriarty is dead, and I'll never get to see the look on his face when he realizes he's been duped by the great Sherlock Holmes. What a let down.

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Phone number thing - I think Moriarty's just playing with him to be honest, no real reason, just another one of his games.

 

Moriarty as we know and love him is definitely dead, but I'm kind of hoping they will bring in Moriarty's brother (it's canon). Maybe at the end of Series 3?

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I don't think Moriarty is dead... And I don't think anyone would have cleaned up his body.

 

I think Sherlock did believe he died and did whatever he did to fake his death and save his friends. But I don't think Moriarty would just shoot himself and think Sherlock had no way out other than to suicide. I'd like to believe that Moriarty's too smart to just go and assume that and take his own life. He must have planned his death before to make it look believable to Sherlock or something.

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I dunno. I thought that too but then it's so much of a departure from the canon. Also, Moffat has already said he can't keep having Moriarty all the time as the villain because it's boring - http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-03- … k-villains

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Don't forget that in the canon Moriarty has a brother, also called James and apparently just as naughty.

 

 

They could bring back Andrew Scott as Moriarty's evil twin.

 

 

(Maybe with a beard.)

 

 

:D

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