Why did Moriarty kill himself?

[Julia Mae]

It is his flaws that make him an interesting character. Most of the better fictional characters do. We can relate to them better.  How many people do you know that will admit that they have a problem, or that they are wrong. It doesn't take a genius for that. Pride, how ever misplaced, is part of the human makeup.

 

He misjudged her, but this is a young Sherlock who has little experience, so we are led to believe in all the works of canon, of women of any sort.  She is the one woman in all the stories that bests him. Is in his league mentally. How dull and boring it would have been if they had watered her down or made Sherlock less taken in by her. It makes a very interesting story line. There is no shame in being bested by someone who is clever enough to take you on toe to toe. She had backbone and he respected in that someway. Yes, in the end he had to take her down. She was  working with Moriarty, who was beginning to loom large, and for all that she reacted to him, she was willing to put her little game of domination before that. She was not to be trusted.

 

There is some trust, but why does John rebuff Sherlock when he is introduced as friend to Sebastian at the bank? John says "colleague" and you can see that Sherlock is taken a back. He lets John use his card, yes, because money is not an issue with him. Why should he care if John used it? John is the one who runs the errands it's only logical that he uses the money.

 

As for following John and Sarah on the date, remember, it was Sherlock that set it up. He suggested the circus. He was going to be investigating it as a link to the deaths of the two men and The Black Lotus and he only wanted John there to help. He wasn't there as a friend, per say, it was part of his job, The Work. That was his only motivation.

 

Another nice post.  This discussion of Sherlock's ability to be wrong and his character development would make a nice thread of it's own.   I wonder if you'd think about posting one and using this as the op?  

 

On John saying "colleague."  My take is that John wants to be considered that and he is demanding a level of respect as a co-worker, not "some guy who tags along."  Sherlock, endearingly, was all happy to have someone he could call "friend," especially in front of the old schoolmate.  Besides, he needs money and as a colleague, he is earning a share of the fee.

 

 

[Julia Mae]

A significant number of people prefer death over protracted, extreme pain -- and will actually kill themselves if faced with that sort of agony, especially if there's no chance of eventual improvement.

 

 

Yes, I agree completely. 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I agree with Carol and Julia Mae that John is probably tired of being thought more as a sort of tag along. But it does show that they have a ways to go in their relationship to be comfortable with what exactly that relationship is. Poor Sherlock, he thinks he has finally someone who is a friend, he is able to actually put the proper tag to it and bam! Shot down and in front of someone who admits to have hated Sherlock in Uni. Awkward moment to say the least at least it was for Sherlock. I mean really, John. People can be "friends" and colleagues.

 

I also agree that it is intriguing to think of a code and what it may be, but honestly, this bashing it about which no real answers or direction is starting to get me a bit blue. Sorry about that but it happens.

 

If you want to start another thread on those posts, Julia Mae please feel free to do so. It would be fun I think.

[Kathi]

About that code... Just a thought: is there any Grimm's tale that has angels in it? I just googled it, but couldn't find anything.   Maybe someone else knows more. (But then, I guess, if there was a fitting tale, someone on tumblr would have already found and posted it )

[Carol the Dabbler]

Nice to hear from you again, Kathi!

 

I'm no Grimm expert myself, but hopefully someone here can answer your question.

 

[Caya]

Not an expert either, but The handless maiden comes to mind as having an angel in a supporting role. H.C. Andersen has more of them iirc.

[bborchar]

Yeah, there are a couple, but none work in context of Sherlock.

[Shapupa]

 

Why that moment would have to be, IMO, because he was convinced he had paid off his IOU.  Sherlock convinced him. 

 

That does make sense. Moriarty believed that Sherlock had no way out. Moriarty knew what a lot of people didn't fully yet realize. That Sherlock did have a heart, he did care and this was his Achilles's heel. If Moriarty could die being thought an innocent killed by Sherlock Holmes with no hope of redemption then he would have indeed won the game. Sherlock would take Moriarty's place as master criminal and Moriarty would be forever painted as the hero who brought him to heel.

 

Hi, I'm new here I'll run to introduce myself in a sec..

 

I think you're onto something here. But I have a slightly different view on Moriarty's motives. He kills himself to force Sherlock to kill himself as well. If Sherlock really knew the recall code, he could have recalled the killers himself, but he needed Moriarty ("I don't have to die if I've got you"). Then Moriarty realised that they are two faces of the same coin, both in it for the game ready to do whatever it takes to win. Except one looks towards destruction and evil and the other towards good and saving people (sorta..). Sherlock really cares about saving his friends and they both know it (Moriarty:"As long as I'm alive, you can save your friends, you've got a way out. Well, good luck with that."). Dying is a small sacrifice if he gets to win the game and have Sherlock commit suicide (and as you mentioned it, with no hope of redemption, since the only two people who could redeem him are dead).

[Undead Medic]

Hello Yoanna,  to Sherlock Forum.

 

I hope you like it!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Hi Yoanna! Nice to have you joining us.

[bborchar]

 

 

Why that moment would have to be, IMO, because he was convinced he had paid off his IOU.  Sherlock convinced him. 

 

That does make sense. Moriarty believed that Sherlock had no way out. Moriarty knew what a lot of people didn't fully yet realize. That Sherlock did have a heart, he did care and this was his Achilles's heel. If Moriarty could die being thought an innocent killed by Sherlock Holmes with no hope of redemption then he would have indeed won the game. Sherlock would take Moriarty's place as master criminal and Moriarty would be forever painted as the hero who brought him to heel.

 

Hi, I'm new here I'll run to introduce myself in a sec..

 

I think you're onto something here. But I have a slightly different view on Moriarty's motives. He kills himself to force Sherlock to kill himself as well. If Sherlock really knew the recall code, he could have recalled the killers himself, but he needed Moriarty ("I don't have to die if I've got you"). Then Moriarty realised that they are two faces of the same coin, both in it for the game ready to do whatever it takes to win. Except one looks towards destruction and evil and the other towards good and saving people (sorta..). Sherlock really cares about saving his friends and they both know it (Moriarty:"As long as I'm alive, you can save your friends, you've got a way out. Well, good luck with that."). Dying is a small sacrifice if he gets to win the game and have Sherlock commit suicide (and as you mentioned it, with no hope of redemption, since the only two people who could redeem him are dead).

 

 

^I agree  I am just stumped as to how he convinces Moriarty that he does know the recall code...I'm sure there's a dog whistle that we all are missing

 

Welcome!

[Shapupa]

Hi, thanks for the warm welcome! I've changed my SN to Shapupa, I might as well keep my twitter SN, less confusing

 

After reading some more theories on here, I've seen that other people have said the same thing re:Moriarty killing himself. While I have no doubt that he did it to force Sherlock's hand (unknowingly that Sherlock had the upper hand all along), I can't help but wonder if that was his intention all along. Guess it's one of those 'if things would have gone a different way' that we'll never know

[Shapupa]

 

 

^I agree  I am just stumped as to how he convinces Moriarty that he does know the recall code...I'm sure there's a dog whistle that we all are missing

 

Welcome!

 

 

I don't think he does. I think they both know that Sherlock doesn't actually know the recall code. If Sherlock actually knew the recall code, wouldn't he have used it instead of going through with his elaborate plan to fake his own death? No need for that if he could have just called off the killers.

 

I actually wonder how Sherlock convinced Moriarty that he could get the code out of him or he could get him to recall the killers. Why Moriarty thought he has no other option to up Sherlock, except death. It's why I'm so curious if Moriarty's intention was to kill himself all along, after making Sherlock do it.

 

Am I making any sense? I swear I do in my head :blush2:

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Especially when Moriarty tells him that there was no code, just three well placed moles. So who is telling the truth here? Moriarty that there is no code, or Sherlock who says there is?

[bborchar]

Especially when Moriarty tells him that there was no code, just three well placed moles. So who is telling the truth here? Moriarty that there is no code, or Sherlock who says there is?

 

Well, when Sherlock says "[so there is] a recall word or a number", Moriarty is surprised.  I don't think Moriarty thought that Sherlock would reach that conclusion.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

Y'all are talking about two different codes here -- Moriarty told Sherlock that there was no computer key code that would have allowed him to hack into those three places, so he had broken into each of them separately, using normal methods.  But there's also the recall code, which would order Moriarty's hired guns to stand down -- Moriarty does not dispute Sherlock's deduction that such a code exists, and his suicide (to avoid disclosing it) confirms that there was indeed a recall code.

 

 

 

I think they both know that Sherlock doesn't actually know the recall code. If Sherlock actually knew the recall code, wouldn't he have used it instead of going through with his elaborate plan to fake his own death?
 
I actually wonder how Sherlock convinced Moriarty that he could get the code out of him or he could get him to recall the killers.

 

I'm probably repeating myself, but I think Moriarty believed what Sherlock said about not actually being an angel.  He knew that Sherlock was capable of subjecting him to real torture (the kind that he could dish out himself), and he knew that he would not be strong enough to resist divulging the recall code.  That's also why he said "bless you," I think.  He was delighted to know that he had finally found a truly worthy adversary -- and perhaps even more delighted to have a foolproof (as he thought) plan to defeat that adversary.

[bborchar]

 

I'm probably repeating myself, but I think Moriarty believed what Sherlock said about not actually being an angel.  He knew that Sherlock was capable of subjecting him to real torture (the kind that he could dish out himself), and he knew that he would not be strong enough to resist divulging the recall code.  That's also why he said "bless you," I think.  He was delighted to know that he had finally found a truly worthy adversary -- and perhaps even more delighted to have a foolproof (as he thought) plan to defeat that adversary.

 

I would be more apt to think that Sherlock's line implied that he was willing to sacrifice his friends (like Moriarty would).  I just don't know what Sherlock could do to Moriarty, up on that rooftop with his people watching, other than kill him...and it still wouldn't save his friends.  If Sherlock had left the roof, his friends would die.  If Moriarty thought Sherlock was going to torture him, he'd probably just laugh at him or kill himself instead.  But what would truly make Sherlock like Moriarty (in Moriarty's mind)?  Killing his friends to win the game.  I can't think of anything else that would make Moriarty respect him.  And Sherlock would definitely burn for that.

[IQ192]

/thinking out loud about this 

The snipers that move into Baker Street were sent by Moriarty's clients , to protect the code/Sherlock, not by Moriarty himself . Moriarty says this on the roof . 
They do not know that the code is a con and the game is to make Sherlock die.
They risk their lives and some even die to save him .

The " my people " Moriarty refers to , he claims three snipers , obviously know Sherlock is to jump or they shoot.
 
In reality the idea of a sniper following John that day , ready to shoot at any moment is laughable , imagine he is set up opposite Barts and John runs out gets  a taxi back to 221b... How does the sniper know where John went ? How would he beat John to 221b and hide out somewhere and set up his snipey gear again , only to have John rush back out into a taxi and go back to Barts , same probs,,,,oh no poor sniper all that runnning and hiding and snipey setting up! Not to mention being obvious and getting caught .

Plus if the snipers sent by Moriarty's clients are doing their job , um shouldn't they ALL be pointing their rifles at the roof of St Barts to protect Sherlock ?

If so then maybe Moriarty shoots himself because Sherlock shook his hand, and Sherlock knew that was the signal the clients snipers needed to fire .
After all ... "last one to touch Sherlock is a sissy..." 
And thats why Sherlock says .. " If i'v got you" and " I will shake you hand " etc
Sherlock has turned Moriarty's own plan against him and so to avoid being shot by snipers , and loosing Moriarty shoots himself knowing Sherlock must jump thus forcing a draw. ( Double Suicide.)
Moriarty shoots himself before Sherlock moves away and the snipers can see to fire....they likely think Moriarty is Richard Brook . Moriarty never got his hands dirty  , never meets people face to face , for all they know the man on the roof with Sherlock is their competition!

Perhaps Moriarty only has / and needs 1 actual sniper in on the real game, likely Moran .
The threat of the three deaths does not have to be imminent to be real, it does not make much difference if John ,Lestrade , @ Mrs H are shot 1 min after Sherlock doesn't jump or 10 , or even an hour later .

What matters is that Sherlock knows , that coming from Moriarty , the threat will be carried out and those three people will die very soon if he does not jump .

Still  , to evade the code hunting snipers , and Moriarty's one /or ones on J/L/MrsH Sherlock still has to jump .

Awwwww.

And the last one to touch SH ? Moriarty was the sissy......................

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

... maybe Moriarty shoots himself because Sherlock shook his hand, and Sherlock knew that was the signal the clients snipers needed to fire ....

Sherlock has turned Moriarty's own plan against him and so to avoid being shot by snipers , and loosing Moriarty shoots himself knowing Sherlock must jump thus forcing a draw....

 

You've been doing a lot of thinking!  That's a good point, that even Moriarty's own hired guns may not know what he looks like (even if they're the same batch as in "The Great Game" -- they might have been told then that he was "Richard Brook" or whoever).  And I agree that there are two sets of snipers (clients and employees).

 

Offhand, the only flaw I see in your reasoning is that it was actually Moriarty who initiated the handshake (I've double checked that, just to be sure).  So if the handshake was some sort of signal, Moriarty was still in charge at that point.

 

I believe I've said this before, so you may have read it already, but briefly, I believe that Moriarty shoots himself because he realizes that Sherlock really is ruthless enough to force the recall code out of him -- so he stops himself from talking.

 

[IQ192]

Interesting point Carol ,Your right ,  Moriarty did initiate the handshake , and i think your reason is right ~ to remain in control .
And yes again Moriarty looks at Sherlock and realises' that Sherlock is just as ruthless as him , ruthless enough to kill even.

So if he waits and allows Sherlock to take control and,,do whatever , Moriarty looses the game.
Thus the shaking hands and killing himself to force a draw via double suicide.

Moriarty and Sherlock both know from the very beginning of the game that it will end in a public death for one of them.
I don't know if it has been mentioned but Moriarty's very first text , and the beginning of the game is " Come and play. Tower hills."
Why Tower Hills ? 
Tower Hills is well known for one thing in London , it is the place the public execution of famous traitors and criminals took place . For hundreds of years famous people were beheaded or hanged there , either by angry mobs or on order of the Crown .
So from the very beginning Moriarty defines the game , public execution , Sherlock must know this.

[Carol the Dabbler]

No, I don't believe anybody's said anything about that text before.  Odd, I was remembering it as saying "Tower of London" -- which would make sense because that's where Jim was at the time -- but I've checked Ariane DeVere's transcript, and you're right, he says "Tower Hill"  -- which Wikipedia says is outside the Tower grounds, so Jim could not possibly have sent the text from there.  Odd.  And right, it was a common place for public executions.  Interesting!

 

 

[IQ192]

It's kinda neat , the very definition of the game , Public execution , puts Sherlock in an intolerable position .
Either he becomes like Moriarty and executes Moriarty  , or allows Moriarty to do it to him .

A game to the death , how could Sherlock resist !.

[Carol the Dabbler]

A game to the death , how could Sherlock resist !.

 

And John wasn't there this time to spoil the fun by shooting the cabbie Moriarty!

[Alex the Dabbler]

I don't think Moriarty killed himself after reading this:

 

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/sherlock-stars-show-banned-revealing-2034544

 

 

[Julia Mae]

I don't think Moriarty killed himself after reading this:

 

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/sherlock-stars-show-banned-revealing-2034544

 

 

 

I'm not sure why this would make you believe that, I didn't think he said anything much.  Nothing spoilery at any rate.   Though Moffat is admittedly the King of the Undead.  Or maybe "Previously Dead" would be more accurate.