Star Trek Into Darkness

[Carol the Dabbler]

The ever-dependable Sherlockology has posted a video of J. J. Abrams with a clip from said scene.  It's not the type of video that I know how to post here, though, so what's below is just a picture.  Follow that link above to see the video.

 

 

 

[Caya]

Well I hope Mr. Abrams is aware of what he's started; now he'll be hounded until the DVD with said scene in the extras is released .

 

This blogger, for instance, makes a very convincing argument for it on her tumblr .

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I see on Amazon where ST:2009 has come out with a 2 DVD set. One including blooper reel and a whole lot of extras. So sooner or later they will probably do the same for ST: Into Darkness. Hopefully sooner then later.

[SolitaryCyclist]

Just saw it on the regular screen and it was lovely.  I am an ancient Star Trek girl though.

.

 

Please, not ancient; well-aged or matured would be so much better (since I fall in this catagory as well )

 

And I loved, loved, loved the movie!  All the sweet asides to TOS and the final reverse-image ending.  It was brilliant.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I'm seriously thinking about seeing it again. Since this is an this Star Trek with a different time line the TOS, I wonder if Khan will die in this one? It's strange that if they know the destruction he will would have done in the alternate timeline, why keep him around?  They don't have to worry about changing the future, ST:2009 took care of that.

[Julia Mae]

I'm seriously thinking about seeing it again. Since this is an this Star Trek with a different time line the TOS, I wonder if Khan will die in this one? It's strange that if they know the destruction he will would have done in the alternate timeline, why keep him around?  They don't have to worry about changing the future, ST:2009 took care of that.

 

No Star Fleet regulations allow for the summary execution of anyone without a trial.

 

Besides, are they going to kill all 72 of the others, as well?  That's what Admiral Evil wanted to do.  It's a bad thing.

 

These people are like  a set of Frankenstein creatures, they represent a huge sin on the part of a government that would create a sentient being as slave.  They show that the people with power were too freakin' dumb to rule, as creating supermen means you can't, by definition, be in charge anymore.  When they became inconvenient, they tried to destroy them.  Prime directive?  What's that?

 

Someone needs to redeem them.  All of them.  To possibly find a way to correct whatever genetic manipulation makes them so dangerous, if they would chose to have that happen.  I think they should revive them on NeoVulcan, where full-blooded Vulcans would not be at risk.  Where they might find enough peace and safety to at least learn what kind of beings they are. 

 

Harrison/Khan was the victim, here. 

 

 

 

 

 

And JJ saved him for the next director in case they wanted him.

 

[Julia Mae]

I'm seriously thinking about seeing it again.

 

I've seen it 6 times.  It gets better every time. 

[Caya]

Well, they could (and if you ask me, should) have put him on trial for the terrorist attacks - yes, he had a motive for them, but still, deciding if that justified them (and how far) should have been a proper court of law's job. But I guess since he could have told all kinds of inconvenient truths about the Federation and Section 31 and Admiral Marcus, the higher-ups decided to literally put the matter on ice.

 

No doubt a cowardly move, for what did they gain but a postponement of the matter - all of the Augments will have to be thawed someday or it's just a different form of execution, really; but then, what to do with them? My husband and I actually debated this after leaving the theatre, and we found no real answer. Dumping them on some convenient M-class planet sounded like a good idea, but seeing how well that worked out in TOS, then again maybe not.

 

Redeeming them sounds great, but how? Khan may have some redeemable qualities, but he's a vicious killer as well, and while he was "the best of tyrants" iirc, that still leaves him a former tyrant. Your idea of letting the Vulcans handle them might be the best solution - maybe the teachings of Surak could help the Augments control their darker impulses?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I suppose, since they know that Khan and his "family" were genetically engineered to be more warrior-like, they might try to find ways to reverse-engineer some of that out of them, or at least make the attempt?

[Caya]

I must admit I'm not much of a Trekker (paging Dr. Carol! ) but my understanding is that they don't have sufficient control over genetic engineering to do that, even as late as during the DS9 timeline - that's why genetic engineering was still very strictly regulated even then, forbidden except for repairing the most serious of birth defects. There was an episode about Dr. Julian Bashir, who was augmented as a kid, and iirc it ended with some admiral stating that his parents' meddling could well have produced another Khan instead of mild-mannered Julian.

 

So while that would be an ideal solution, it seems beyond Trek-biotech capabilities.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Since this is an Alternate Universe compared to the original Star Trek series and all subsequent spin offs and everyone is so much younger in this meeting, I suppose they could set their brightest, most compassionate minds to work on it ASAP.

 

But yes, letting them go on Vulcan would give each one a "super John" to teach them to be more compassionate and stuff.

 

There is buzz on the net already about Abrams planning a sequel. We'll see how far that idea goes.

[Julia Mae]

Well, they could (and if you ask me, should) have put him on trial for the terrorist attacks - yes, he had a motive for them, but still, deciding if that justified them (and how far) should have been a proper court of law's job. But I guess since he could have told all kinds of inconvenient truths about the Federation and Section 31 and Admiral Marcus, the higher-ups decided to literally put the matter on ice.

 

No doubt a cowardly move, for what did they gain but a postponement of the matter - all of the Augments will have to be thawed someday or it's just a different form of execution, really; but then, what to do with them? My husband and I actually debated this after leaving the theatre, and we found no real answer. Dumping them on some convenient M-class planet sounded like a good idea, but seeing how well that worked out in TOS, then again maybe not.

 

Redeeming them sounds great, but how? Khan may have some redeemable qualities, but he's a vicious killer as well, and while he was "the best of tyrants" iirc, that still leaves him a former tyrant. Your idea of letting the Vulcans handle them might be the best solution - maybe the teachings of Surak could help the Augments control their darker impulses?

 

For me, it's important not to bleed other Star Trek universes into this one.  Abrams purposely rebooted the series so he could create independent of previous incarnations or assumptions.  He kept Mr. Spock the elder in this timeline, but only what Spock brings with him that we see can be considered reality.  For one thing, I wouldn't really call them "augments" as they are human, not humanoid, and they spring from different events as outlined by Khan in STID.

 

As for Khan being a vicious killer, the difference between a vicious killer and a war hero is what side he is on.  Khan isn't indiscriminately murdering folks, these are military targets in a war he is fighting for the survival of himself and his people.  He isn't going to firebomb Dresden, he's going to level Starfleet, if possible.

 

Why?     Spock heard his speech in the brig, he knows what drove Khan to violence in the first place: believing his people had been killed by Marcus (the most vicious killer I saw in the movie).

 

It's possible Khan would have taken his people and his ship and just left after he disabled the Enterprise so he could make a clean getaway.  Spock convinces him all his people are dead, that he, Spock, had killed them.  What the heck was Spock even thinking?   

 

I don't know what to put Khan on trial for.  It's a war, but not a war crime.  Khan wasn't part of Star Fleet, he was a kidnap victim and forced laborer, so he's not a traitor. 

 

We could put Kirk on trial, I am fairly sure.  Him and Spock and Uhura for abusing the prisoner who'd surrendered.  Or trying to, anyway. 

 

We have no idea what Khan would be like if he were not in an adversarial situation, not being used as a weapon by people who would wield power over him, or being attacked and hunted by people who fear him.   I like my neoVulcan fantasy because it would allow that to happen.

 

[Julia Mae]

Since this is an Alternate Universe compared to the original Star Trek series and all subsequent spin offs and everyone is so much younger in this meeting, I suppose they could set their brightest, most compassionate minds to work on it ASAP.

 

But yes, letting them go on Vulcan would give each one a "super John" to teach them to be more compassionate and stuff.

 

There is buzz on the net already about Abrams planning a sequel. We'll see how far that idea goes.

 

In the original Star Trek, Mr. Spock once explains that Vulcans were such a violently, unreasonably emotional race that they almost destroyed themselves.  This is why they embraced logic.  It seems to me if any people have the historical experience to help Khan and his people deal with what they were made and make choices for themselves that make sense, it will be Vulcans who are also, after all, physically and intellectually superior to humans.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I too would like to see how these questions are resolved in any future movie. They kept them intact for a reason. They must think there is some hope for them. Interesting ideas to ponder upon while we wait for this Star Trek Universe unfold. I do like the idea as I have probably made clear of sending them to the new Vulcan and let them have a good try at teaching them how to overcome those violent tendencies using logic and non-violent outlets. 

 

Saw it for the second time tonight, and Julia, you're right. It only gets better, and if it is still playing locally, the friend I went with wants to see it again so it looks like I might have a third go around. I don't think I am going to mind much.

[Caya]

When exactly did these two universes branch off exactly? (I'm not playing dumb, btw, I'm really not sure) As in, did history develop differently even before Nero showed up (wasn't there something about the change rippling forwards and backwards in time or am I imagining that)? There were Eugenic Wars in the 1990s in this universe, I think, but were they the same as in TOS?

 

So you make an excellent point: we don't know that much about this Khan if these Eugenic wars were different. Something must have happened that put them into cryo, but as to what, who knows? There's also the matter of Khan's notoriety or lack thereof that was raised on another forum I frequent: as in, if he was a tyrant three centuries ago, why can he just walk down the street and nobody notices him? His photo should be in any history book and someone should recognize his likeness, even more so since he and his followers just vanished from history.

 

As for what Spock was thinking, good question. If he thinks Khan's just defending himself, it was unnecessarily cruel to make him believe his family's dead - if he thinks Khan's a vicious bastard, it was incredibly stupid to provoke him so.

 

PS: Your mentioning the Vulcans has given me a small but nagging urge for a fanfic, something that hasn't happened in a dozen years. I hope the two of you are happy .

[Julia Mae]

Saw it for the second time tonight, and Julia, you're right. It only gets better, and if it is still playing locally, the friend I went with wants to see it again so it looks like I might have a third go around. I don't think I am going to mind much.

 

The more I see it, the more I see the depth that is actually in all the characters.  We are so used to seeing Spock, Kirk and Scotty, I think we take them kind of for granted.  Bu t the last time I realized how much Spock's speech on the way to find Harrison on Kronos, where he is explaining himself to Uhura and Kirk, too, really, says about him and the choices he will make (I think) that eventually lead to the Mr. Spock we knew from before - or - and this is what's interesting - away from him.  In a couple more movies we could have a whole new take on Spock. 

 

Seeing Scotty as this hero, standing up to Kirk for what he knows is his duty, standing up to "You're big" guard  - I never saw him as a hero before, yet, it's right in character with what we knew of him from classic ST.  But he's still funny and ...  it's just a really good portrayal.

 

And Kirk - the first time I thought the opening was kind of tedious until I realized that everything later in terms of change in Kirk's standard behavior, really does spring from the consequences of his actions there.  It's quite a good script, better I think than folks realize.  I think Chris Pine is probably better than he's given credit for, also.

 

As for dear Mr. Goofybatch, no one has to say anything about his extraordinary acting, JJ already has, anyway.  But I noticed something here.  He really is violently violent when he is dealing blows.  And I never watch fight scenes.  My family will tell you, I look away, leave the room, whatever.  But this - I can't look away, don't want to.  I was so surprised.  I wanted to watch every single thing he did.  Why, I wondered?  What makes it different?

 

I decided it was because with other actors, they are remembering their blocking and delivering the physical requirements of the scene.  So all the violence is soulless, it's violence for the sake of itself.  But Benedict Cumberbatch knows the physical so well through his infamous rehearsal work-ethic and his character through his process that  he isn't thinking about it - he is in character at all times - that's KHAN we are watching.  It's riveting to me.

 

I know, I'm gushing about the stupid movie.  I just love this movie.  But I'm a Cumberbatched Trekkie, so....  

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I know, I'm gushing about the stupid movie.  I just love this movie.  But I'm a Cumberbatched Trekkie, so.... 

Not to worry and no need to apologize. I have been Sherlocked since the age of 8. But Cumberbatch has brought him to life in a way I could never have imagined. And what he has done for Khan and this movie is just amazing. He is an actor who brings so much to every thing he does. I like this new Trek Universe so far.

[Julia Mae]

 

I know, I'm gushing about the stupid movie.  I just love this movie.  But I'm a Cumberbatched Trekkie, so.... 

Not to worry and no need to apologize. I have been Sherlocked since the age of 8. But Cumberbatch has brought him to life in a way I could never have imagined. And what he has done for Khan and this movie is just amazing. He is an actor who brings so much to every thing he does. I like this new Trek Universe so far.

 

 

Thanks.  And it's so good to hear a hard-core Sherlockian love his version of the detective.  There's a post on tumblr of a conversation started by someone who realized there are only 6 episodes extant, and asks what kind of fandom would be able to get off so completely on 6 episodes?  If it didn't have 49k+ answers already, I'd tell him: it only took one.

 

As for Star Trek, I think if Paramount owns the franchise now, we should just go ahead and write the next episode for them and then ship it.  We'll just assume Benedict Cumberbatch won't be busy shooting James Bond when we need him.   Who owns that, anyway?

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I was hooked on Star Trek with my first episode, too.  (It happened to be "The Devil in the Dark," AKA the one with the horta, which is still one of my favorites.)

 

Responding to some earlier posts (and apologizing for not having made a note of who said what):

 

In the original series, Khan and his people had been frozen for 200 years, and in this movie it's 300, but that's because TOS was 200 years in our future, whereas the original-cast movies decided to be 300 years in our future.  So yes, Khan et al. went into cryo circa late 1990's in both.

 

However, in TOS, Khan and his people were the results of a breeding program, whereas in this movie, they were genetically engineered.  In either case, they must have been born by 1970, so the breeding program and/or genetic engineering project must have been very hush-hush, since we've never heard of either.

 

Whoever said that Khan and crew were human, that was true in TOS, but not necessarily this time around.  They're presumably mostly human, but could also have genes from a fish or a tomato or whatever.

 

[Caya]

Ooooh, Horta  - and thanks so much for the infos, Carol! I was hoping you'd show up here - have you seen the film by now?

 

So indeed we know very little of who this Khan was before cryo or why they went into cryo in the first place? Intriguing, though I guess it would take a television series to ever get answers *sigh*.

 

About the Augments (?) being human, wasn't there an Enterprise episode where some Vulcans crashed on Earth in the mid-20th century (?) and one decided to stay (my knowledge of the Enterprise series is spotty at best, I must admit)? Given what we saw of Khan fighting, that clandestine project might well have got their hands on and added some Vulcan genes to the mix.

[Julia Mae]

Whoever said that Khan and crew were human, that was true in TOS, but not necessarily this time around.  They're presumably mostly human, but could also have genes from a fish or a tomato or whatever.

 

I think a lot of this depends on how scientifically accurate we insist on being and how we count time.  "300 years" is a pretty loose designation, could be 263 years or 375 years.  Could be they have changed the way they count years when the countries merged into world government.  I think Hasidic Jews are still counting from King David's reign.

 

People already have all sorts of genes in common with other species, that's evolutionary reality.  Star Trek plays fast and loose with human, and science, since we really cannot expect to be able to mate with a species, no matter how humanoid, that evolved on another planet.  Yet ....  of course we have.

 

But, you cannot make Khan or his people into beings that are unable to mate with normal H. Sap, it's just too big a genetic difference, they wouldn't have anything like a normal human appearance, they'd have to have different numbers of chromosomes.  Any allele, including one from a tomato, if it works in Khan's body will work in any other human's body.  (Sorry, I majored in paleoanthropology, so lots of genetics and evolutionary science and stuff). 

 

Anyway, if we are going to accept at our present level of knowledge that aliens can mate with humans, (which would technically make them the same species or at least sub-species) then Khan and his ilk cannot be different enough from us to not be human beings.  The first is mathematicallyimpossible but we accepted it as part of the Star Trek Universe generations ago, now.  The second, too far outside of present  day scientific reality to be able to sell it to us.

 

[Julia Mae]

About the Augments (?) being human, wasn't there an Enterprise episode where some Vulcans crashed on Earth in the mid-20th century (?) and one decided to stay (my knowledge of the Enterprise series is spotty at best, I must admit)? Given what we saw of Khan fighting, that clandestine project might well have got their hands on and added some Vulcan genes to the mix.

 

You know, this is actually more scientifically plausible than interbreeding with Vulcans.  The amino acids common to life on earth are found on meteorites that land here.  The way the molecules fit together is a function of geometry really.  You might pick up a gene or two from a population as similar to humans as Vulcans are.  And it makes sense they'd do it secretly.  Probably someplace called Baskerville.

 

I think one of the things to keep in mind is that this is, in this timeline, the very first time Kirk and Khan encounter one another.   They have no previous history, so the story Khan tells, presuming it is true, is the only story we have as reboot Star Trek Canon.

 

[Caya]

 

Probably someplace called Baskerville.

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And I think there was some attempt to explain all this "from different planets but can (and will) interbreed" business in TNG - a lonely progenitor race seeding the galaxy or somesuch *pleading eyes towards Carol, again*.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

They have no previous history, so the story Khan tells, presuming it is true, is the only story

But Marcus does seem to confirm that claim when he comes to destroy the Enterprise, Kirk and his crew. And Khan knew a heck of a lot about what Marcus was doing and where to find the Dreadnaught. Marcus set them up for a fall on Kronos. It was only John Harrison's interference that saved everyone on that shuttle from being killed. Yes, Marcus was using Khan as bait but that only strengthens his claim that Marcus has been using him all along.

[Julia Mae]

I found this, BTW, in terms of what the writers were thinking about Khan:

 

While the way the story played out might have been altered, the writers reached back into Star Trek past for their villain. They utilized Khan, but things didn’t necessarily have to go that route.

“The biggest addition was Benedict Cumberbatch,” said Orci. “In terms of his character, we wanted to make sure that the audience did not need any previous knowledge to understand him. So the big debate was: should he or shouldn’t he be Khan?” Kurtzman added, “Our challenge was to define a story that doesn’t rely on previous knowledge, or love of Khan or ‘Star Trek 2.’ We thought if we can do that, then we can think of using that great character Khan.”

 

http://www.themarysue.com/original-star-trek-villain/

 

 

Okay.  So STID takes place in 2259.  Let's say the "300 years" really is 265 years.  That's 1994.  If it takes 30 years to raise and educate Khan and friends, that's 2024.

 

They might have thought of a breeding program of the basic population of 73 enhanced warrior people, rather than using them in an actual war then.  Though I bet they are all rather good at computer games.  My impression from what Khan said, is that they put themselves into cryo-sleep and hoped to wake up to a better and less violent society or one where they wouldn't be exploited.

 

So, THAT didn't work out.