Meta: Mary Morstan. Spoilers for HLV

[Caya]

Yeah, but would you really want to watch that (not rating here, honestly curious)? John occasionally dropping by Sherlock, them having a bit of fun together like in the old times, and then he says goodbye (with the tepid handshake he's already put to such spectacular use on the runway) and goes home to domestic bliss?

 

The show that I fell in love with was "you and me against the rest of the world". Not "my odd friend that I visit every now and then".

[Carol the Dabbler]

Dare I repeat Fox's comment that it's canon?

 

I sincerely doubt that John would ever be able to ignore Sherlock for very long, even if he really wanted to, which I doubt.  So he and Sherlock will get their adventure fix often enough, and so will we.

 

I think you're misreading the handshake, and considering how readily you interpret John's actions as "stiff upper British lip," I can't help wondering if you're interpreting the handshake as genuine apathy mostly because you're pissed at John.  Which would be understandable.

 

And no, I certainly wouldn't mind John being as blissful as he likes.  (Sherlock owes him a couple of years, at least.)

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

In canon, even before Watson got married and was still living at 221b, there were weeks and weeks that went by with no cases at all. So what we would want to see is those times when Sherlock would knock on the door, John answers, Sherlock grabs him by the shirt front, yelling into the house that he's running John and they're off for several days.

[Caya]

Ooh, I get to use my favourite poster from despair.com .

 

 

Meaning here, just because it's in canon doesn't mean it's a good idea . Or did anybody miss John fainting when Sherlock reappeared, then forgiving him instantly? Moftiss have always felt free to play loose with the canon.

 

Besides, that wasn't even my point (see what comes from posting in the wee hours of the morning, my bad). My point was - the dynamic has shifted. It's as Magnussen said, John is Sherlock's pressure point, but Sherlock is no longer John's. His wife (the lovely murderer) is now his most important person. Which, again, is understandable and a perfectly fine state for a marriage, but not a show I'd care to watch (there are plenty rom-coms out there if I got the urge, besides).

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Or did anybody miss John fainting when Sherlock reappeared, then forgiving him instantly?

 

 Heck no! We didn't miss it, not at all. Very early on people were posting that that was the last thing they wanted to see happen in "The Empty Hearse"!  We wanted more anger from John Watson. More angst, and Sherlock getting hit at least once. We got it all. Thank heaven Moftiss can and does feel free to play loose the the canon. Gives us something other then a rather tepid, watered down version.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Don't worry, Martina, they won't turn it into a rom-com.  Oh, sure, they may toy with us a bit here and there, but there is NO WAY that we'll get three episodes of rom-com.

 

I've been pondering WHY we know so little about Mary's past, and can't help thinking that they're going to lay another bomb on us in Series 4 -- maybe something to do with Moriarty, as someone already suggested.  Or something totally surprising.  Surely they've kept us (and John) in the dark on purpose and for a reason.

 

[Slithytove]

Regarding the handshake..... I don't think it was just a case of British stiff upper lip. (The truth is, our lips are as wobbly as everyone else's.) We know John struggles to put his feelings into words but we also know he is an emotional man and that he has powerful emotional attachments to Sherlock - we have seen him express admiration, exasperation, love, grief, rage, despair, amusement and more at his friend's behaviour. This is a man who was so crippled by grief that he stood at Sherlock's grave and begged him not to be dead, and yet he can see his friend vanish from his life again without showing any affection or regret.

 

He knows Sherlock sacrificed himself for Mary but all Sherlock gets in return is "We're not naming our daughter after you" and "The game is over." Sherlock may not be a natural hugger, but Lestrade and Anderson both impulsively embraced him and even John himself hugged him at the wedding. Couldn't John bring himself to manage more at the end than a handshake, which Sherlock has to initiate? Throughout the entire scene, Sherlock is tense with pent-up emotion, and has tears in his eyes when he is on the plane, whereas John seems distant, almost cold. He is losing Sherlock but he has Mary and his heart, unlike Sherlock's, isn't breaking.

 

I liked Mary in the first two episodes (much more than I expected) but I was always concerned that she disrupted the dynamic between the two men. I can see the temptation to make her into a three-dimensional character, whereas the original Mary was little more than a cypher, but bringing her into the foreground alters the relationship between John and Sherlock in a way that the original Mrs Watson did not. HLV meant, for me, that she was beyond redemption but, even if she had not shot Sherlock, I would still feel that the core of the story is "the two of us against the world" and the presence of a third wheel (and the prospect of a small fourth wheel!) weakens that core. Apart from the physical distance - John no longer living at 221B - there seems to be an emotional gulf betwee the men and maybe that's why some of us loved S3 but found it really painful.

 

As for people hating Mary, and that hatred spilling over onto the actress.... Well, people who can't distinguish between an actor and the part they play are, basically, ignorant tossers. You can't create storylines just to avoid rousing the ire of idiots like that. The strong reaction which Mary provokes is actually a compliment to Amanda's acting skills although it must, of course, be annoying to have to deal with idiots who think you really are Mary Watson!

 

If I was going to be cross with anyone, it would be Steven Moffatt - I would like to yell at him, "What the hell have you done to John Watson's character?"

[Ruthyone]

Mary seemed to friendly when she met Sherlock, maybe she was plotting then but it has caused the dynamics of Holmes and Watson to change. Gatiss and Moffat must have written this to cause people to have such feelings about the Mary Morstan character.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

The dynamic changed in the book too. Not so dramatically, but John and Sherlock's friendship survived two wives, I'm sure It'll survive Moffat and Gatiss as well.

[aely]

Regarding the handshake..... {snip} Couldn't John bring himself to manage more at the end than a handshake, which Sherlock has to initiate? Throughout the entire scene, Sherlock is tense with pent-up emotion, and has tears in his eyes when he is on the plane, whereas John seems distant, almost cold. He is losing Sherlock but he has Mary and his heart, unlike Sherlock's, isn't breaking.

 

{snip}

 

As for people hating Mary, and that hatred spilling over onto the actress.... Well, people who can't distinguish between an actor and the part they play are, basically, ignorant tossers. You can't create storylines just to avoid rousing the ire of idiots like that. The strong reaction which Mary provokes is actually a compliment to Amanda's acting skills although it must, of course, be annoying to have to deal with idiots who think you really are Mary Watson!

 

 

 

Handshake... I interpret John in that scene in almost the opposite fashion to you! I think I wrote a post about it somewhere...  Found the posts - 622 and 624 in the HLV thread

 

Personal opinion and what we read into things is so very varied and absolutely fascinating.

 

 

The second point is one with which I completely agree.

[T.o.b.y]

Yay, I find we're still discussing Mary and the end of series 3! I thought everybody was getting tired of it except for myself...

 

I wish I could post the leave-taking on the airfield here, so we could all take a closer look at what we're discussing, but I can't think of any legal source to link to, so we'll have to turn to what we have at home and see what we see there. I see John first not really grasping the situation, as if kind of numbed and unable to take in the reality of what is happening. He asks where Sherlock is going and what he will be doing after that, so I seriously doubt he knows it is likely his friend is going to die. Then what I see is that, as usual, when things get "honest" and emotional, John is lost for words and becomes defensive and brusque. Then I see him grimacing in an attempt not to cry, then thankful that Sherlock lightens the mood with his dumb joke about his name. It seems he has no idea how to say good bye properly, because there is nothing he could do to change the situation anyway and he doesn't know any words or gestures that would be appropriate for what he feels. Finally, Sherlock offers him a good old-fashioned handshake and a very proper, manly, distant "to the very best of times", so they settle for that and then Sherlock is gone. I adore that scene, I think it is wonderfully understated and sad and genuine. This is Sherlock Holmes and John Watson, come on... they never seemed very prone to hugging and crying and I must say, I love them for that. And lack of big gestures does not mean lack of feeling or sincerity. To use a favorite quote of mine from a very popular novel: "A man who felt less might have said more."

 

I do see what other people mean when they say the dynamics have shifted and John has other priorities. I also think Magnussen summed up the relationships between the characters pretty accurately and that series 3 felt sad. It can't all be unintentional - why would they show Sherlock staring at the empty chair with a twitching face or looking gloomily over at John when Janine asks if he has a vacancy? In the original, it is stated several times that after the marriage, Holmes and Watson drifted apart for a while and didn't see each other terribly often and there are plenty of hints that while Holmes, before and after Watson moved out, often went off on his own by choice, he wasn't entirely happy with the new state of things (in one story, he half-jokingly refers to the doctor leaving Baker St for a wife as "the only selfish action" he can charge him with during their long acquaintance). He did like Mrs Watson a lot, though, and while he groaned at the news of the engagement, he had done enough to bring it about.

 

Oh dear, I am rambling again. What points was I trying to make? Oh, right:

- I like the farewell scene and I think it isn't callous at all on either side

- As always, the way the writers handle the changes that occur because of John Watson finding a wife captures the spirit of the original stories perfectly, in my opinion

- I like the dynamic in series 3, I think it's interesting and realistic and funny and sad and touching and complicated

- I like Mary and I think she "comes between" the two leads as little as is at all possible (just look at how they did the wedding!)

- If the writers stick to their source, then at some point, John will be back at Baker St and if not, then too bad, but at least he'll be happy

 

[wildwoodflower]

Mhm, yeah, that confusion of character and actor is very disturbing. I can be very silly and childish about my favorite films, and take the characters much too seriously sometimes, but what have the actors got to do with that? You won't ever catch me sending Mark Gatiss hate mail just because I don't feel very affectionate towards Mycroft these days - and Gatiss not only plays that man, he also writes him the way he is! Really. Will people try and shoot Andrew Scott next so Moriarty won't come back?

 

Female fans love Moriarty though (if fanfiction is any indication).  He's just another boydoll  to play with. They can smoosh the plastics face together and make them all kiss.

[T.o.b.y]

Well, I'm a female and a fan and I don't love Moriarty or feel the urge to smoosh anybody's faces anywhere... but I see what you mean. And people don't seem to feel half as antagonistic towards that character as I would have expected, considering how incredibly evil and malicious he is.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... all the while coming across as sweet and playful.  I personally would find it very hard to dislike him, even while keeping a very safe distance away.

 

Magnussen, on the other hand -- yeccchh!  I have to avert my eyes when he licks Lady Smallwood's face.

 

[T.o.b.y]

Sweet and playful? Uh, Carol have we been watching the same character...? Moriarty frightens the hell out of me! I was so relieved when he shot himself, I do hope he stayed dead...

 

But you're right about Magnussen, he really is a different kettle of fish altogether. Truly repellant.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sweet and playful? Uh, Carol have we been watching the same character...? Moriarty frightens the hell out of me! I was so relieved when he shot himself, I do hope he stayed dead...

 

Yeah, that too!

 

Trying to figure it out, and think I have it now -- I've seen other characters who acted playful while being sadistic, and they definitely gave me the creeps.  I think the difference is that those other characters were fully aware of the dichotomy and were deliberately doing it for effect -- whereas Scott's Moriarty strikes me as honestly earnest and (sometimes) playful.  So in a way, he's not a bad person.  In fact, he presumably sees himself as very reasonable.  It's just that his outlook is really warped.

 

I think what this really boils down to is Andrew Scott's performance versus those others.  The other actors apparently saw the character as evil and played him as consciously evil, whereas -- as Martin Freeman has said more than once -- it's highly unlikely that anyone actually aspires to be evil.

 

[T.o.b.y]

... Which brings us back to Mary very elegantly! It's really not likely that she saw no good reason to kill her victims (or "targets" or whatever she might have called them), is it?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks for bringing us back to the actual topic!

 

Yes, I assume that she had a reason.  Whether it's anything that I would consider a good reason or not, I have no idea, and presumably won't have till Series 4 airs (if then).

 

[Caya]

Speaking of reasons ... has it occurred to anyone that the one behind those Moriarty vids could be Mary of the shadowy and unknown past?

 

Granted, keeping your secrets on a flash drive doesn't exactly scream tech-savvy to me. But she'd at least have a motive to do it - she seems unable and/or unwilling to apologize, but at least she might be inclined to pay Sherlock back the favour he did her by shooting Magnussen by getting him out of that assignment.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... so she's just playing dumb at the airport?  Could be.  Heaven knows I don't know what to believe at this point!

 

[Caya]

Truer words never spoken .

[T.o.b.y]

... so she's just playing dumb at the airport?  Could be.  Heaven knows I don't know what to believe at this point!

 

Neither do I, but it would explain why she is so cheerful in that scene!

 

[Slithytove]

 

 

... so she's just playing dumb at the airport? Could be. Heaven knows I don't know what to believe at this point!

Neither do I, but it would explain why she is so cheerful in that scene!

Or it could be that she had only pretended to like Sherlock and was glad that he was going out of John's life. It's possible..

 

It's interesting that a scene like the airfield leave taking plays so differently for different people. I can see that it can be interpreted as deeply repressed emotion. Personally, I don't think there is enough there to show us that John is simply overwhelmed by his feelings. I'm not saying he is indifferent to Sherlock's departure but I find the scene cold rather than moving.

 

Maybe those of us who react that way - which is a fair number, judging by the amount of "fix-it" fanfiction dealing with this scene - are the ones who feel that there is an emotional gulf between John and Sherlock in S3. My impression is that, whilst Sherlock is moving towards John, John is moving away. He is still Sherlock's friend, of course - he asks him to be the best man, he hugs him at the wedding, he is concerned when he slips back into addiction - but it seems that he is more distant than he was in S1 & 2. (Of course, this could be because those series are mainly from his POV whereas S3 is mainly Sherlock's.)

 

This distance could be because he has decided to commit himself wholly to his marriage, which is a good decision right up to the moment when his wife shoots his best friend.

 

Or it could be that the emotional impact of the Fall was so terrible that he decides - consciously or subconsciously - never to allow Sherlock to hurt him again in that way. So he keeps a degree of emotional distance and basically shuts down a lot of the warmth and understanding that existed between them. He seems colder because he wants to be colder, so that he is less vulnerable.

 

If that is the reason, then Mary did not come between them. John put her there.

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

... so she's just playing dumb at the airport? Could be. Heaven knows I don't know what to believe at this point!

Neither do I, but it would explain why she is so cheerful in that scene!

Or it could be that she had only pretended to like Sherlock and was glad that he was going out of John's life. It's possible..

 

No... please? Oh, that would be terrible! Oh I do hope they won't "reveal" next series that Mary's affection for Sherlock was all an act. No. That would take so much away from the drama I value in this third series. If she doesn't care about him, what becomes of the tragedy when she finds herself "forced" (in her mind) to shoot him?

 

Maybe I'm being blind with love for this character, but I simply cannot believe the Mary who pulled John through the time after Sherlock's fake suicide and who shoved him out of the door with Sherlock so they could both "run" each other and not crack up before the festivities from too much exposure to perfume, cake, lilac and guest lists, never existed. I vastly prefer to believe that one person can be a loving wife and a good friend and a stone cold killer all in one. Real people are complex and contradictory like that - why can't she be?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Maybe I'm being blind with love for this character, but I simply cannot believe the Mary who pulled John through the time after Sherlock's fake suicide and who shoved him out of the door with Sherlock so they could both "run" each other and not crack up before the festivities from too much exposure to perfume, cake, lilac and guest lists, never existed. I vastly prefer to believe that one person can be a loving wife and a good friend and a stone cold killer all in one.

 

  I'm ready for more drama in Season Four, but I am also confident that Moffat and Gatiss knows the canon well enough that Mary is going to be someone so totally crazy. If and I do mean...if....people are correct and Sherlock, the curious creature that he is...took a gander at her A.G.R.A stick, and he does trust her as much as he seems too, then I think that it will be made ok.

 

Real people are complex and contradictory like that - why can't she be?

 All of the characters that have been introduced on this series have been complex and certainly contradictory....or in another word......multi-faceted. I can't imagine Mary will be any less.