Meta: Mary Morstan. Spoilers for HLV

[T.o.b.y]

 If and I do mean...if....people are correct and Sherlock, the curious creature that he is...took a gander at her A.G.R.A stick, and he does trust her as much as he seems too, then I think that it will be made ok.

 

If he didn't, then I can only excuse that with his having been very ill and in hospital. Or maybe he used the time there to think about her at leisure and decided he didn't need to read it because he could deduce everything that must be on there. But I simply cannot believe he's not interested or shares John's "I don't need to know" attitude.

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

 

I wish I could post the leave-taking on the airfield here, so we could all take a closer look at what we're discussing, but I can't think of any legal source to link to, so we'll have to turn to what we have at home and see what we see there. I see John first not really grasping the situation, as if kind of numbed and unable to take in the reality of what is happening. He asks where Sherlock is going and what he will be doing after that, so I seriously doubt he knows it is likely his friend is going to die. Then what I see is that, as usual, when things get "honest" and emotional, John is lost for words and becomes defensive and brusque. Then I see him grimacing in an attempt not to cry, then thankful that Sherlock lightens the mood with his dumb joke about his name. It seems he has no idea how to say good bye properly, because there is nothing he could do to change the situation anyway and he doesn't know any words or gestures that would be appropriate for what he feels. Finally, Sherlock offers him a good old-fashioned handshake and a very proper, manly, distant "to the very best of times", so they settle for that and then Sherlock is gone. I adore that scene, I think it is wonderfully understated and sad and genuine. This is Sherlock Holmes and John Watson, come on... they never seemed very prone to hugging and crying and I must say, I love them for that. And lack of big gestures does not mean lack of feeling or sincerity. To use a favorite quote of mine from a very popular novel: "A man who felt less might have said more."

 

I do see what other people mean when they say the dynamics have shifted and John has other priorities. I also think Magnussen summed up the relationships between the characters pretty accurately and that series 3 felt sad. It can't all be unintentional - why would they show Sherlock staring at the empty chair with a twitching face or looking gloomily over at John when Janine asks if he has a vacancy?

 

Well said. I understand why many feel the need to see a hug and hear some heartfelt words, but for my part is would never suffice. The power of the goodbye scene is in the strength of their friendship. Words, tears, hugs can't express that. Attempting to do so would probably undermine their relationship, if anything. This is not a generalisation, by the way, because I think those open forms of expression suit some people more than others. For Sherlock and John, however, holding back emotions that are too strong to deal with seems more real to me.

 

In TSoT and HLV I think it becomes gradually evident, despite John's reassurances, that the dynamic between him and Sherlock has changed, a little at least. John has a priority before Sherlock now, whereas Sherlock's priority is still John (and, through John, Mary). That is the only way in which Mary comes between them, as far as I can see. She is perfectly supportive of their friendship and partnership. But things have changed, and yes, it's a little sad sometimes.

 

I'd like to continue to see occasional sadness because of the change in dynamic between Sherlock and John, but nothing overly dramatic, and I hope Mary will be largely ignored if she is to remain in the show, like she was in TEH and TSoT. At some point I'd like to see John back in Baker St. but I'm no hurry.

 

[Slithytove]

Mary can, of course, be a friend/wife/killer (though I would seriously question the depth of friendship if my pal decided to shoot me!) However, this is a drama we are watching, and a crime/ adventure adventure at that, so the writers have got to go for a strong narrative arc with lots of tension, big reveals, etc. Mary the double agent in deep cover may have more possibilities than Mary the sweetie who really wants to try nine types of wedding cake.

 

That is ,of course, if the writers are playing the long game and have planned the entire arc, as Moffatt has done in the past with Dr Who - very long narrative arcs which can seem a bit baffling or disconnected at times but tie everything together in the finale.

 

On the other hand, they could be winging it and have no idea where the characters are going to go.

[sherlockandjohn]

Yes, I definitely think Mary the agent is a more dynamic character than Mary the sweet housewife - so if Moffat and Gatiss include her more, I assume it will be for the purpose of aiding Sherlock and John. I personally would prefer to see that happen only rarely.

[Arcadia]

Is anyone else a Joss Whedon fan? I just ask because I feel he does the same kind of shows; characters who are offbeat, archetypal and yet somehow real; heart-pounding drama leavened with screamingly funny humor; heartache and betrayal and loss redeemed by hope. I used to think there would never again be a tv show as good as Buffy the Vampire Slayer but I think Sherlock may have moved into my top spot. Gahhhh, I just eat this stuff up like candy......

[Slithytove]

I loved Buffy. I loved the sense of humour most of all, but also the fact that they were not afraid to take the storylines and the characters in unexpected directions. And I really loved Spike. (Oh dear, it's those high cheekbones again......)

 

Although Buffy and Sherlock (the shows, not the people) are obviously very different, they do share the hallmark of very emotional narratives, strong characters and a dark humour that so many shows lack (I'm looking at you, Elementary!)

 

Sadly, though, we'll never see a musical episode of Sherlock, which was one of the highlights of Buffy.

[T.o.b.y]

Mary the double agent in deep cover may have more possibilities than Mary the sweetie who really wants to try nine types of wedding cake.

 

I think the character who fits both those descriptions has the biggest possibilities of all!

 

[wildwoodflower]

 

 

 

... so she's just playing dumb at the airport? Could be. Heaven knows I don't know what to believe at this point!

Neither do I, but it would explain why she is so cheerful in that scene!

Or it could be that she had only pretended to like Sherlock and was glad that he was going out of John's life. It's possible..

 

No... please? Oh, that would be terrible! Oh I do hope they won't "reveal" next series that Mary's affection for Sherlock was all an act. No. That would take so much away from the drama I value in this third series. If she doesn't care about him, what becomes of the tragedy when she finds herself "forced" (in her mind) to shoot him?

 

Maybe I'm being blind with love for this character, but I simply cannot believe the Mary who pulled John through the time after Sherlock's fake suicide and who shoved him out of the door with Sherlock so they could both "run" each other and not crack up before the festivities from too much exposure to perfume, cake, lilac and guest lists, never existed. I vastly prefer to believe that one person can be a loving wife and a good friend and a stone cold killer all in one. Real people are complex and contradictory like that - why can't she be?

 

 

Ah T.O.B.Y. thank you. Because that is why, despite everything, I still love her. I really, truly believe - from the actors choices and the direction - we are meant to see her affection for him as genuine. They are more kindred spirits than John is to either of them. He's kind of like the lantern in the dark that shows them the way forward. When she blatantly calls Sherlock out on his fibbing there's love there. Sorry, everyone else, but that's what I saw. Mary's complex and conflicted and I like that in a character. it's why I like Sherlock and why I like John. Layers. Lots of layers. And sometimes those layers are shifting beneath the surface like tectonic plates.

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

 When she blatantly calls Sherlock out on his fibbing there's love there.

 

And also at the end of The Sign of Three, where Mary, when Sherlock tells her and John to go dance again, looks at him and says "what about you?" If that isn't supposed to be real affection... Of course, the actress didn't know at that time what was in store for her character (or so she has claimed), but I do assume that they would not have encouraged her to play her role like she did if it was all supposed to be fake.

 

By the way: I love the way she says "come on husband, let's go!" Shortly afterwards. I can't help but fall in love with Mary every time I see the wedding (and I have to admit that, due to a very stressful day job, I watch it a lot these days when I come home...)

 

As for John being a lantern for his two psychopaths, I don't know about that. I've never seen him as so terribly luminous. But he's very lovable, of course.

 

 

[wildwoodflower]

Speaking of reasons ... has it occurred to anyone that the one behind those Moriarty vids could be Mary of the shadowy and unknown past?

 

Granted, keeping your secrets on a flash drive doesn't exactly scream tech-savvy to me. But she'd at least have a motive to do it - she seems unable and/or unwilling to apologize, but at least she might be inclined to pay Sherlock back the favour he did her by shooting Magnussen by getting him out of that assignment.

 

I kind of want it to be Sherlock's mother. She kind of flies under the radar for a certified genius  that Sherlock seems to think  "understands very little." 

[wildwoodflower]

 

 When she blatantly calls Sherlock out on his fibbing there's love there.

 

And also at the end of The Sign of Three, where Mary, when Sherlock tells her and John to go dance again, looks at him and says "what about you?" If that isn't supposed to be real affection... Of course, the actress didn't know at that time what was in store for her character (or so she has claimed), but I do assume that they would not have encouraged her to play her role like she did if it was all supposed to be fake.

 

By the way: I love the way she says "come on husband, let's go!" Shortly afterwards. I can't help but fall in love with Mary every time I see the wedding (and I have to admit that, due to a very stressful day job, I watch it a lot these days when I come home...)

 

As for John being a lantern for his two psychopaths, I don't know about that. I've never seen him as so terribly luminous. But he's very lovable, of course.

 

 

 

 

I mean morally of course. I think John Watson has a very finely tuned morality in regards to his fellow humans. He's honorable in way that Sherlock (on this show) is ... less so. But Sherlock is actually trying to be better. And that's John's doing.

[Slithytove]

It is precisely the fact that Mary is so warm and sweet towards Sherlock in TEH and TSoT that makes her behaviour in HLV seem, to me, so repulsive. I realise that many people disagree, which is fine - it would be boring if we all reacted the same way - but in my eyes she is beyond redemption. If I rmember rightly, the idea of a lovely person being horrible is canon. I am sure Holmes, when warning Watson against being fooled by appearances, says something to the effect that the most charming woman he ever met poisoned two small children for their insurance money. Choosing a sweet actress to play the role of Mary just makes the change from apparent affection to ruthless violence more poignant.

 

In a way, Mary is similar to Irene Adler. Both recognise Sherlock's basic loneliness, both induce him to let his guard down and both betray his trust to hurt him. Of course Irene, unlike Mary, only injures his pride.

 

Deception and the betrayal of trust has been a Sherlock theme from the beginning. Moriarty fools Molly into trusting him as Jim from IT and Kitty Riley as Richard Brook. Ironically, the arch-villain does the least harm, in this case, to his victims. Sherlock pretends to be dead and pretends to propose to Janine. These are serious betrayals of trust and I would say that, in moral terms, the fake proposal was worst, though in real terms John was devastated for a long time whereas Janine recovered very quickly. The lie to John was intended, it seems, to protect Sherlock but also, perhaps, to protect John too. The phoney courtship of Janine was a matter of convenience. Mary's betrayal was the cruellest of all. She lied massively to John, even going through a bogus marriage, and she was so friendly to Sherlock that he trusted her not to hurt him. Bad decision.

 

As for John being a moral man...... Yes, he was the detective's moral compass, from his first incarnation to the present day, right up to HLV. Then something seems to go wrong. He doesn't have that practical but unshakable morality which was the cornerstone of his character and that makes me annoyed with the writers, because I have always loved John Watson and everything he stands for.

 

Unless, of course, the writers have a long-term plan and it is all a bluff.....

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Unless, of course, the writers have a long-term plan and it is all a bluff.....

 

  Which is a reasonable assumption with this lot.

[aely]

I think it's a bit harsh to call it a "bogus marriage" though, as I do think we're intended to believe that it is something that Mary and John genuinely wanted (Mary for some possibly very dubious reasons in hindsight, as well as the more normal ones). Love is a bit of a weird thing, as we all know it is, 'a much more vicious motivator' and can be completely irrational.

 

Will John trust Mary again? To a degree, possibly, but never fully and that will eat away at him (she did betray him and Sherlock after all). It doesn't mean he loves her any the less and I think Mary does love him, no matter what other motivators she might have had. I don't think it was just a marriage of convenience on her part. So, you have 2 people who love each other in some way at least - that does not make a bogus marriage. It ain't going to be a good marriage necessarily after all the fallout from HLV, but there are still elements in place that make it a genuine thing.

 

Hate is the dark twin of love, though. So much as I still like Mary, it won't be a surprise if that (not bogus) marriage doesn't last.

 

 

 

[Slithytove]

Legally, they are not married. You can't marry someone under a false identity. Mary knows this but still goes through with it. I suppose that, when you have killed a lot of people, a bit of fraud wouldn't worry you.

[Slithytove]

There is an excellent meta on the shooting, written by a surgeon under the name cookieswillcrumble at http://archiveofourown.org/works/1235479/chapters/2535907 - it isn't finished yet but there are 6 chapters so far and seems to be coming to a very different conclusion than Wellingtongoose's meta. Very informative and well worth a look.

[T.o.b.y]

Will John trust Mary again? To a degree, possibly, but never fully and that will eat away at him (she did betray him and Sherlock after all).

 

...

 

Hate is the dark twin of love, though. So much as I still like Mary, it won't be a surprise if that (not bogus) marriage doesn't last.

 

Well, John does still seem to trust Sherlock, and that after he faked a horrible suicide before his very eyes and let him believe he was dead for two years, at which point he came back and expected his friend to take it as a big joke. I'd say that the man who can overlook that might be able to forgive and trust Mary even after His Last Vow, too.

 

The big difference there seems to me that while with Sherlock, John insisted on being told why he did it, he never, to our knowledge, asked Mary any whys about anything. Which seems strange to me. Okay, Sherlock explained the shooting for her unasked, but there remain plenty of questions like why did you kill people for a living, why did you not have a problem with that (or did you?), why did you decide not to tell me about any of this before we got married, etc.

 

Why oh why does John not want to know any of this? If respecting Mary's wishes is really the reason, then I'd say it was gallantry taken entirely too far. Maybe he's afraid that she is right and he wouldn't have been able to love her anymore if he knew about her past in detail. So he prefers to remain in blissful ignorance. Which isn't half as noble in my tired little eyes as John (or rather the writers / director) try to make it look.

 

It would be entirely logical if the marriage didn't last, but I have a strong suspicion that it will and we will see John and Mary impossibly happy with just the occasional little squabble to liven things up for years to come. Luckily for me, I think I could live with both those outcomes.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Maybe they will just have a quiet little civil ceremony to make it all nice and legal this time.

[Slithytove]

She would have to reveal her genuine identity to have any sort of legal ceremony. Presumably she has a good reason for hiding it. Also, John would have to get divorced from his "previous " wife, unless they were going to admit Mary had committed fraud. If he didn't, he would be a bigamist.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Unless she legally changes her name to Mary Morstan first? Not hard to do, fairly cheap and, unless UK laws on such a move are stiffer then here in the US....they don't look to closely into the person's background.

[Carol the Dabbler]

John wants to continue their marriage (even though he now knows that Mary has a mysterious past), and so does she.  So (even though the government might technically take a dim view), I'm willing to call it a real marriage.  Besides, she would put herself right back in danger if she either remarried him under her original name or changed her name legally, because in either case A] she would have to reveal her original name, and B] she'd be calling attention to herself.  So I think she and John are wise to just let well enough alone.
 

It's interesting that a scene like the airfield leave taking plays so differently for different people. I can see that it can be interpreted as deeply repressed emotion. Personally, I don't think there is enough there to show us that John is simply overwhelmed by his feelings. I'm not saying he is indifferent to Sherlock's departure but I find the scene cold rather than moving.

  

The power of the goodbye scene is in the strength of their friendship. Words, tears, hugs can't express that. Attempting to do so would probably undermine their relationship, if anything. This is not a generalisation, by the way, because I think those open forms of expression suit some people more than others. For Sherlock and John, however, holding back emotions that are too strong to deal with seems more real to me.

Although I see the airport scene as emotional, I'm not so sure that it's exactly or entirely repressed emotion, at least not on John's part. He's spent a good part of the past four years going along with Sherlock, and not asking what the plan is till they're on their way (if then). So he may believe this is another plan that Sherlock and Mycroft have cooked up (which I suppose is true enough, in a way). Thus John may be more bewildered and trusting than repressed at this point.

 

[T.o.b.y]

Although I see the airport scene as emotional, I'm not so sure that it's exactly or entirely repressed emotion, at least not on John's part. He's spent a good part of the past four years going along with Sherlock, and not asking what the plan is till they're on their way (if then). So he may believe this is another plan that Sherlock and Mycroft have cooked up (which I suppose is true enough, in a way). Thus John may be more bewildered and trusting than repressed at this point.

 

That would make a lot of sense. But John does say "the game is over". That sounds pretty final.

Of course, after The Reichenbach Fall, he'd be right to never, ever trust to appearances with the Holmes brothers. But then, he's by nature such a sucker.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

... But John does say "the game is over". That sounds pretty final.

Of course, after The Reichenbach Fall, he'd be right to never, ever trust to appearances with the Holmes brothers. But then, he's by nature such a sucker.

 

Can't we call him a sweet, trusting soul instead? 

 

I took John's "game is over" comment to mean the "game" they'd had together, rather a reference to Sherlock's life.  Sherlock and Mycroft don't appear to have told him much, since he asks where Sherlock is going and what he'll do after that.

 

[Arcadia]

Maybe it's JOHN who's behind the return of Moriarty, as a way to rescue Sherlock from exile .... bwahahaha....

[T.o.b.y]

 

I took John's "game is over" comment to mean the "game" they'd had together, rather a reference to Sherlock's life.  Sherlock and Mycroft don't appear to have told him much, since he asks where Sherlock is going and what he'll do after that.

 

 

Oh, I fully agree. I do not think John had any idea Sherlock was expected to die abroad. If he had, I do think he would have behaved very differently.