Janine

[sittything]

Okay, so I finished rewatching the Janine mini-series, and ya know... I don't hate her, but I still don't like her.  Molly's face sums up my reaction pretty well:

 

 

I'm going to have to ditto Boton and Janie in that I find Janine vulgar, but in the sense that she lacks sophistication, class.  Not that she's spewing profanity or explicit comments or anything.  I do find their interactions at the wedding more endearing and less annoying than pretty much all of HLV.  I can't stand the nicknames she gives Sherlock and Mycroft.  She gets at least a couple Molly faces from me for Sherl and Myc/Mike whatever that crap was.  Oh, and the hooting and hollering after "Sherl" finished playing his piece for Mary and John at the wedding.  No.  Down girl.

 

I actually don't think Sherlock enjoyed his relationship benefits with Janine as much as others seem to think.  The kiss between Sherlock and Janine is just so meh.  I even rewatched it on YouTube (dedication to the research!) to see if I could see sparks, but no. 

 

And Janine's biggest flaw for me is that I can't help but compare her to Molly.  Molly isn't as flashy, or as charming, or as comfortable in her own skin as Janine.  But there is so much sincerity in her caring for Sherlock.   She's such a quiet and steadfast friend.  Always there, never demanding attention, and she checks him when he really needs checked (the drug thing).  I realize that there's no hope for Molly, or is there because Benedict says that's the cruel thing?  But where Janine fails for me is in really caring for him, in looking out for his best interests.  I realize he was using her and is a scoundrel for doing so, and that's another topic for discussion, but to me that doesn't excuse away Janine's shortcomings. 

[avoca]

 

And Janine's biggest flaw for me is that I can't help but compare her to Molly.  Molly isn't as flashy, or as charming, or as comfortable in her own skin as Janine.  But there is so much sincerity in her caring for Sherlock.   She's such a quiet and steadfast friend.  Always there, never demanding attention, and she checks him when he really needs checked (the drug thing).  I realize that there's no hope for Molly, or is there because Benedict says that's the cruel thing?

can you quote benedict's words about sherlock's and molly's relationship?

 

I'd be very interested in knowing thx 

[sittything]

In response to the question, "Is there any hope for Molly?" Benedict said:

"There is always hope for Molly. That’s the cruel thing."

[Janie]

  I can't stand the nicknames she gives Sherlock and Mycroft.  She gets at least a couple Molly faces from me for Sherl and Myc/Mike whatever that crap was.  Oh, and the hooting and hollering after "Sherl" finished playing his piece for Mary and John at the wedding.  No.  Down girl.

 

 

Now you reminded me of another reason why I don't like her. I hate that she calls him "Sherl". How dare she? Can't she show him some respect and call him by his whole name? It's so cheap and maybe that's why she seems vulgar to me. 

[sittything]

Do you think Janine ever called Mycroft "Mike" to his face?   Oh, how I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for that!!  Even if Mycroft was in on Sherlock's faux relationship, you know he'd have some sort of facial tic trying to contain his annoyance at being called Mike.  Look how Mycroft reacted to Mummy Holmes calling him Mikey.  lol

[Janie]

I don't think the two of them ever met since Sherlock kept his relationship with her secret but yeah, I'd love to see his reaction

[sittything]

I envision "Mike's" face looking something like this if it had happened:

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

In response to the question, "Is there any hope for Molly?" Benedict said:

"There is always hope for Molly. That’s the cruel thing."

Does he mean there actually is hope, or that Molly always feels hopeful? I kinda suspect the latter, because that would explain "That's the cruel thing" -- Molly will never entirely give up, she'll always maintain a wisp of hope.

 

I hate that she calls him "Sherl". How dare she? Can't she show him some respect and call him by his whole name? It's so cheap and maybe that's why she seems vulgar to me.

In many circles, nicknames are a mark of affection. If Janine is accustomed to that, then "Sherl" could actually imply the sort of lighthearted respect that one feels for a friend. She really doesn't seem to believe that Mycroft is actually called "Mycroft" -- and "Mike" is the obvious nickname (just like one might assume that a person named "William" is usually called "Bill").

 

From a real-world perspective, it's possible that "Mike" is a nod to Robert Heinlein's classic novel The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, wherein the only other fictional Mycroft I'm aware of is indeed called "Mike" by his friends (and yes, he was named after Mycroft Holmes).

 

[Janie]

 

 

 

I hate that she calls him "Sherl". How dare she? Can't she show him some respect and call him by his whole name? It's so cheap and maybe that's why she seems vulgar to me.

In many circles, nicknames are a mark of affection. If Janine is accustomed to that, then "Sherl" could actually imply the sort of lighthearted respect that one feels for a friend. She really doesn't seem to believe that Mycroft is actually called "Mycroft" -- and "Mike" is the obvious nickname (just like one might assume that a person named "William" is usually called "Bill").

 

 

 

I know and I don't usually have a problem with nicknames. But it somehow doesn't suit Sherlock's character. And it sounds horrible. 

[sittything]

 

Does he mean there actually is hope, or that Molly always feels hopeful? I kinda suspect the latter, because that would explain "That's the cruel thing" -- Molly will never entirely give up, she'll always maintain a wisp of hope.

 

 

I agree with you that Benedict means it in the sense that Molly perceives there to be hope as long as Sherlock is still single and available.  Even though really, he's made himself rather unavailable to all women by choice.  Any other interpretation doesn't make sense to me in light of saying that's the cruel thing.

[sittything]

 

 

In many circles, nicknames are a mark of affection. If Janine is accustomed to that, then "Sherl" could actually imply the sort of lighthearted respect that one feels for a friend. She really doesn't seem to believe that Mycroft is actually called "Mycroft" -- and "Mike" is the obvious nickname (just like one might assume that a person named "William" is usually called "Bill").

 

 

I know and I don't usually have a problem with nicknames. But it somehow doesn't suit Sherlock's character. And it sounds horrible. 

 

 

NIcknames can be a sign of affection, but I think she's kinda dopey to assign nicknames without any evidence that they've ever gone by nicknames.  

 

Ooooh... my Janine annoyance is coming out now.  

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Maybe the nickname of Sherl is one of the reasons why Sherlock says his name is actually a girl's name. (I realize that it would be low on the totem pole of reasons)

[avoca]

I agree with those who think benedict meant molly is always hopeful, though there's no real hope for her to get sherlock and that's definitely cruel.

 

I actually like the nickname Sherl. some way he starts to be called with nicknames by "friends" (shezza too), as his attitude shows random signs of "softening" a little, thanks to john's friendship and to the influence john has over him.

[sittything]

For some reason Shezza doesn't bother me like Sherl does.  

[Janie]

Shezza doesn't bother me that much either. I always thought he came up with that nickname himself.

[Arcadia]

I thought Shezza was perfect for him.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Nicknames can be a sign of affection, but I think she's kinda dopey to assign nicknames without any evidence that they've ever gone by nicknames.

I agree that traditional nicknames like "Bill" for William should be decided by the person him/herself.

 

But aren't non-traditional, lighthearted nicknames traditionally bestowed by friends? I've known a few people who assigned silly nicknames to themselves, and those always sounded kinda pretentious to me, like they were trying to sound popular.

 

[Boton]

 

 

Shezza doesn't bother me that much either. I always thought he came up with that nickname himself.

 

Head canon, but he totally came up with Shezza by himself.  He freakin' walked into that smack den and introduced himself as Shezza, and all the actual junkies went with it because he has just enough swagger to pull that off.  

 

Plus, what a wonderful setup for Mary just glancing into the rear view mirror and saying, "Seriously, Shezza, though?"  I kind of want that as a GIF.

[Saramarie25]

After the bit where Janine asks Sherlock 'So, we're good then?' and he smiles and nods, I can now see her being someone that he would call up for a case. Like 'Janine! I need a sham date for this investigation, fancy a spot of dinner' and she'd go with it. I could see them being fun together but not in a relationship!

 

I'm still waiting for Mary Russell to show up for that! *runs away*

[Saramarie25]

 

 

 

Shezza doesn't bother me that much either. I always thought he came up with that nickname himself.

 

Head canon, but he totally came up with Shezza by himself.  He freakin' walked into that smack den and introduced himself as Shezza, and all the actual junkies went with it because he has just enough swagger to pull that off.  

 

Plus, what a wonderful setup for Mary just glancing into the rear view mirror and saying, "Seriously, Shezza, though?"  I kind of want that as a GIF.

 

 

Haha! I can see him coming up with it the same way he says 'laterz' at Buckingham Palace. Or 'blud'. But I can almost see him saying 'I'm...um...Shezza' with that confused/disgusted look on his face. The same one he gets when he talks about sentiment

[Boton]

 

 

After the bit where Janine asks Sherlock 'So, we're good then?' and he smiles and nods, I can now see her being someone that he would call up for a case. Like 'Janine! I need a sham date for this investigation, fancy a spot of dinner' and she'd go with it. 

 

I can totally see that.  In fact, that image makes me happy. 

[T.o.b.y]

 

Right, I have to remind myself why I actually don't like her. She's annoying and vulgar and not a match for Sherlock

 

I've seen a lot of people posting that sort of thing, but I don't get it.  (Maybe because I'm also annoying and vulgar?)  Could you post some examples, please?

 

Okay, this is hard, but I'll try. I'll start with why I find (or rather found) her annoying, and maybe the "vulgar" part will fall into place.

To begin with, her looks. When I first saw her in The Sign of Three, I went, ugh, seriously? So far the women in Sherlock have looked like real people, not the standard American soap opera / sitcom / mainstream movie girls with their perfect shiny hair and teeth and makeup and big lips and sexy clothing. And here was Janine, as large as bloody life, looking as if she'd just stepped right off the set of "Sex and the City", flirting with Sherlock Holmes! Then, the flirting itself. The situation is supposed to be funny, I guess, because she treats Sherlock like a normal human (male) being, when we know perfectly well that he is not, and that she displays a profound insensibility towards that "otherness" as their relationship progresses. I mean, who but Janine would even consider becoming Sherlock's girlfriend or giving him a nickname like "Sherl"? (That's vulgar, by the way. Sherl. Come on.). She doesn't reverence Sherlock, I guess. I am sure I should find that wonderful, but I don't. It nettles me when Mary treats him like a child, and I find Janine's behavior downright insulting. This is the Great Sherlock Holmes, for Pete's sake, who does she think she is talking to him as if he were just a guy next door?

 

I do love the way she stomps around the flat in Sherlock's shirt, though. That scene with her and John is hilarious. And I love how she got out of a close encounter with Sherlock Holmes nearly unscathed and made a profit of it. His Last Vow largely reconciled me to her.

 

 

That's always bugged me about her.  She said in the hospital something like, "Dream come true for you; they attach the drugs to you."  So she definitely knew.  Not to mention the fact that Mycroft searching the apartment and the whole "Don't appal me when I'm high" business was not exactly done in a way that couldn't be heard through the bedroom door.  And that's just what we got to see on screen.

 

Plus the fact that Sherlock said his drug habit had hit the newspapers. Plenty of ways she could have found out.

 

 

Something I've always wondered about: in HLV, when Janine says to Sherlock "I’m the only one who really knows what you’re like, remember?" what do you think she means? What does she think he's like? And later in the hospital, when she says "I know what kind of man you are ..." what does she mean then? The same thing, or something different this time? Because she adds "we could have been friends" and I can't quite see how one has to do with the other. Also I can't tell if she really understands him at that point, or if she's still completely taken in by what she thinks he is.

 

I think in the beginning, Janine just thought Sherlock was gay. I mean, a man who is not responding to her more-than-obvious signals and who can point out potential male bedfellows for her... To a person like Janine, it takes a lot less to spell "gay". Later, though, I think she's figured out that with Sherlock, the story is more complicated, and by then "the kind of man you are" probably refers to his general Sherlock-ness, his more than problematic approach to feelings, sex and relationships in general, and I think she realizes that before the question of "with whom" came up, Sherlock would have to settle the "what on earth for and how do I do this without getting hurt anyway and no thanks I'm freaked out and this is a waste of time" problem first.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm still waiting for Mary Russell to show up for that! *runs away*

If they follow the Mary Russell novels for that part, it'll happen in about Series 14.  

 

Right, I have to remind myself why I actually don't like her. She's annoying and vulgar and not a match for Sherlock

 

I've seen a lot of people posting that sort of thing, but I don't get it.  (Maybe because I'm also annoying and vulgar?)  Could you post some examples, please?

 

Okay, this is hard, but I'll try. I'll start with why I find (or rather found) her annoying, and maybe the "vulgar" part will fall into place.

To begin with, her looks. When I first saw her in The Sign of Three, I went, ugh, seriously? So far the women in Sherlock have looked like real people, not the standard American soap opera / sitcom / mainstream movie girls with their perfect shiny hair and teeth and makeup and big lips and sexy clothing. And here was Janine, as large as bloody life, looking as if she'd just stepped right off the set of "Sex and the City", flirting with Sherlock Holmes! Then, the flirting itself. The situation is supposed to be funny, I guess, because she treats Sherlock like a normal human (male) being, when we know perfectly well that he is not, and that she displays a profound insensibility towards that "otherness" as their relationship progresses. I mean, who but Janine would even consider becoming Sherlock's girlfriend or giving him a nickname like "Sherl"? (That's vulgar, by the way. Sherl. Come on.). <snip> His Last Vow largely reconciled me to her.

Well, I'm glad you've changed your mind somewhat, because you're a tough debater! But OK, I'll endeavor to rebut some of your points:

 

1. "... perfect shiny hair and teeth and makeup and big lips and sexy clothing." You mean at the wedding? Where she was the bridesmaid? Aren't bridesmaids supposed to be all gussied up?

 

2. "... she treats Sherlock like a normal human (male) being, when we know perfectly well that he is not ..." I think I find that refreshing. She acknowledges that he's famous, but then she treats him like a fellow human being, rather than oohing and aahing all over him.

 

3. "Sherl" What the hell else could she call him? He's treating her like his girlfriend, so she's treating him like her boyfriend, complete with a pet name. And apparently he hasn't objected.

 

[Arcadia]

She could call him Snookums! Sweetiepie? I know, I know, she could borrow from Lestrade and call him Sunshine. (Which, coming from Lestrade, I rather love... )

[avoca]

 

 

Right, I have to remind myself why I actually don't like her. She's annoying and vulgar and not a match for Sherlock

 

I've seen a lot of people posting that sort of thing, but I don't get it.  (Maybe because I'm also annoying and vulgar?)  Could you post some examples, please?

 

Okay, this is hard, but I'll try. I'll start with why I find (or rather found) her annoying, and maybe the "vulgar" part will fall into place.

To begin with, her looks. When I first saw her in The Sign of Three, I went, ugh, seriously? So far the women in Sherlock have looked like real people, not the standard American soap opera / sitcom / mainstream movie girls with their perfect shiny hair and teeth and makeup and big lips and sexy clothing. And here was Janine, as large as bloody life, looking as if she'd just stepped right off the set of "Sex and the City", flirting with Sherlock Holmes! Then, the flirting itself. The situation is supposed to be funny, I guess, because she treats Sherlock like a normal human (male) being, when we know perfectly well that he is not, and that she displays a profound insensibility towards that "otherness" as their relationship progresses. I mean, who but Janine would even consider becoming Sherlock's girlfriend or giving him a nickname like "Sherl"? (That's vulgar, by the way. Sherl. Come on.). She doesn't reverence Sherlock, I guess. I am sure I should find that wonderful, but I don't. It nettles me when Mary treats him like a child, and I find Janine's behavior downright insulting. This is the Great Sherlock Holmes, for Pete's sake, who does she think she is talking to him as if he were just a guy next door?

 

I do love the way she stomps around the flat in Sherlock's shirt, though. That scene with her and John is hilarious. And I love how she got out of a close encounter with Sherlock Holmes nearly unscathed and made a profit of it. His Last Vow largely reconciled me to her.

 

LOL I actually thought the opposite about janine being skinny..   when john meets her in the morning in baker street, while she wears only sherl's shirt (don't hate me, I like the nickname  ), I thought "she's a pretty, sociable, probably popular stereotype of girl, and though obviously good looking, she's not the classic anorexic model you see on TV series. she could be a good looking but "normal" girl. I liked that detail. 

 

 

Something I've always wondered about: in HLV, when Janine says to Sherlock "I’m the only one who really knows what you’re like, remember?" what do you think she means? What does she think he's like? And later in the hospital, when she says "I know what kind of man you are ..." what does she mean then? The same thing, or something different this time? Because she adds "we could have been friends" and I can't quite see how one has to do with the other. Also I can't tell if she really understands him at that point, or if she's still completely taken in by what she thinks he is.

 

I think in the beginning, Janine just thought Sherlock was gay. I mean, a man who is not responding to her more-than-obvious signals and who can point out potential male bedfellows for her... To a person like Janine, it takes a lot less to spell "gay". Later, though, I think she's figured out that with Sherlock, the story is more complicated, and by then "the kind of man you are" probably refers to his general Sherlock-ness, his more than problematic approach to feelings, sex and relationships in general, and I think she realizes that before the question of "with whom" came up, Sherlock would have to settle the "what on earth for and how do I do this without getting hurt anyway and no thanks I'm freaked out and this is a waste of time" problem first.

 

 

always remember I'm kind of newbie here and I apologize if I come up with a topic that's been already talked about here for "days on end"    

 

has it been considered sherlock could be if not gay, bisexual..?   no polemics here, just a question.