Irene Adler plothole?! and hello ;)

[J.P.]

You have a point, because in the scene in his bedroom the sash window is definitely closed and probably fastened, while the one which is ajar is so lengthwise and therefore not a possible means of a clandestine entry, while the one in the kitchen, later on, when he finds her in his bed, is open at the bottom, thus permitting someone from outside to enter clandestinely. Irene may be slim, but she is not a wraith.

Nope. The window on the right is open.

 

Watched the whole "grieving" part. Dang, it DOES make sense, if you don't let yourself to be carried away by the music. It seems possible that she texted S to let him know she's alive. When you see him walking back, the strange way of showing him can also implicate extreme thinking. His eyes always makes those fast movements when he is "reading data". And that's what he does. Why? Because he knows that it wasn't Irene in the morgue, and that makes him wanting to unlock her phone even more. He THINKS about it while composing... etc, etc... 

 

Huston, we have a new interpretation! 

Littlefoot, thanks for the hint! 

[littlefoot]

Inge, I notized that, too, that Irene is actually helping Sherlock to crack the pass code and alert him to the automatic guns. But why is she doing it? Is it because she got from the frying pan into the fire when the CIA-agents show up? Because she wants Sherlock to help her getting rid of them? And that can only be accomplished when the safe gets opened, thus setting the guns off?

As to the measurements, I will really adopt T.o.b.y's suggestion that Sherlock got them with the material in Buckingham Palace - or he googled her, lol! And Irene knows that. She was probably just teasing and messing with John, when she implied that Sherlock got the numbers from just looking at her.

[littlefoot]

Joanneta1, you're welcome! So you see, you actually can get new aspects out of the older material. I think right now both versions are equally possible.

Big question is of course, why the creators constructed it this way, I feel it has to have some importance, but when Steven Moffat is involved you never know. He is famous for placing clues and hints all over the place and then only using a fraction of them, while simply dropping the others without further explanation. And we poor fans are slowly turning into Andersons ;)

[littlefoot]

Correction: It was you J.P. who likes this new aspects. I have still some trouble to sort out all your different names and separate them from the quotes.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think the really interesting question is, why Irene texted him at all. Sherlock would've found and opened the present eventually anyway. What did she want to achieve by texting him? Was she so confident that Sherlock would acknowledge the body as hers? Because her fake was so damn good - or because she was sure he would cover her?

 

Maybe she was testing him?  She was apparently not in actual danger, or she would not have reappeared.

 

Correction to my post above: It's of course Mycroft, not Sherlock, who tells John totally unnecessarily that Irene is dead, but that he wants Sherlock to believe she made it into a protection program.

 

Now that you're past your moderation period, littlefoot, you should be able to edit your own posts (just click the Edit button to the left of the MultiQuote button in that post).  If that doesn't work, please let us know.

 

Have you not noticed how practically anybody can enter their flat with very little effort? In Scandal it's Irene when she is found sleeping in his bed, so she or her assistant could simply have left the little red box there anytime earlier when Sherlock and his friend were both out getting their little party ready. In SoT, two clients are actually mentioned who came in perfectly normally, if such a thing can be said about the Hollow Client, and the other is Mr Shilcott and his peculiar headgear, which provokes the whole hat theme game lifted from the Blue Carbuncle. In fact, with Mrs. Hudson locked behind the door of her ground-floor flat, anyone can leave and enter their flat, from Lestrade on a drugs bust to Mycroft, who institutes the whole drugs search thing in HLV.

 

We've got an entire thread on "Getting into 221B without a key" -- do feel free to pop over there and comment!  Come to think of it, that thread's been quiet for over a year -- we may need to add some examples from Series 3.

 

As for the hollow client and Mr. Shilcott, I assume that Mrs. Hudson answered the door and let them in, just as she did with CAM and his bodyguards -- she seems to act as doorkeeper, despite not being their housekeeper!  And the two drug busts presumably came complete with search warrant (so Mrs. Hudson had to let them in).  But there are several less explicable entries, in addition to Irene's two.

 

As for her phone in his coat hanging behind the door, it is still puzzling and a definite plot hole.

 

Wasn't that Sherlock's phone in his coat pocket?

 

[littlefoot]

Carol, thanks for the editing advice. I thought the button isn't working because it's shadowy pale, but when I touch it, it seems to work. Will try it out...

[J.P.]

 

Wasn't that Sherlock's phone in his coat pocket?

 

Yes, it's Sherlock's. It was in his pocket all the time. Irene manipulated it, so it moans each time he gets a text from her. Not from her camera-phone but from another one, she uses for communication. 

 

As an alternative she - or her assistent - could be at Sherlock's before the boys came home. Dealing with drugged S surely took some time. Lestrade even filmed it, remember?  :D

 

Correction: It was you J.P. who likes this new aspects. I have still some trouble to sort out all your different names and separate them from the quotes.

 

But you inspired me. I am new too, and confused, but it won't stop me. :P

[Arcadia]

AHA! You are all proving my point ... it is meant to be read both ways!
 

Arcadia, I think it's only partly explained how Irene faked her death. We know, the records were faked and she or her accomplice provided a body with a smashed in face. But they don't explain at all, why Sherlock identified her body immediately without even a cursory examn. We know it's not her body. We also know Sherlock knows exactly how her naked body looks like. The writers have gone to great length to establish that. And even if Sherlock knew her measurements in advance, he had a look at her. We know that Sherlock has an excellent visual memory. So, how could Irene fool him to the point that he immediately confirmed the identity of the body? If she really fooled him, that is.

Exactly; either Sherlock was fooled by the body double, or he knew it wasn't her and lied. We are deliberately never told which one is the correct interpretation. Pick your favorite!
 

Also, even if I'm repeating myself here: Mycroft seems to think later that Sherlock fooled him once, but wasn't around to do it again. That must count for something. And why did the writers even include that statement of Mycroft?

Same thing; either Mycroft believes Irene is really dead, or he knows darn well (or suspects) that Sherlock saved her and wants to see John's reaction. It's your choice, because the script never says.
 

There's also the curious question why Sherlock tells John at all, that Irene is dead. He says to John, he wants Sherlock to believe that Irene got herself into a witness protection program. But if Mycroft really wants Sherlock to believe in that story, why does he tell John of all people that it isn't true and Irene is really dead? That was unnecessary and certainly counterproductive, since John can't tell a lie convincingly. And he is not convincing at all, when he tells Sherlock about the fate of Irene.
Again, I think there's much more subplot in SiB than we're realizing.

Same as above; either Mycroft genuinely wants John's opinion on which story they should tell Sherlock, since John is the one closest to him; or Mycroft already knows Irene's gotten away, and just wants to see John's reaction when he tells him she's dead. Maybe both.
 

 

The whole dynamic between the brothers in this episode is fascinating anyway. Mycroft apparently trusts Sherlock more than he does his own security service; but then he tries to bully Sherlock into backing off the case.

 
If you ask me, then Mycroft ordering Sherlock to back off a case is his way of making him stay on it. He knows his contrary little brother too well.

 

Right, and then there's that. Does Mycroft genuinely believe Sherlock will ever do what he tells him to? Or does he manipulate Sherlock into doing what he, Mycroft, wants?
 

Nope. The window on the right is open.
 
Watched the whole "grieving" part. Dang, it DOES make sense, if you don't let yourself to be carried away by the music. It seems possible that she texted S to let him know she's alive. When you see him walking back, the strange way of showing him can also implicate extreme thinking. His eyes always makes those fast movements when he is "reading data". And that's what he does. Why? Because he knows that it wasn't Irene in the morgue, and that makes him wanting to unlock her phone even more. He THINKS about it while composing... etc, etc... 
 
Huston, we have a new interpretation! 
Littlefoot, thanks for the hint! 

Yup! But the other interpretation works too -- Irene has gotten into Sherlock's heart, he's grieving, he's confused, etc. -- and Moffat ain't letting us know which interpretation is the right one. Maybe he's holding stuff back for another plot, but in my heart I believe we'll never get an answer; the uncertainty, to him, is the point, I'll bet.

By the way, I LOVE LOVE LOVE all those gifs you come up with!

[littlefoot]

Lol, Arcadia! I'm less inclined though to adopt this benign explanation. Steven Moffat could definitely have a sinister plan to turn us slowly into Andersons - or the writers haven't completely decided, where they want to take the story and want to keep several options open - which also turns us into Andersons as a side effect.

Maybe I should found my own 'Empty Hearse' franchise here in Germany. ;)

[J.P.]

It's like watching a bunch of different movies, depending on interpretations. 

 

 

By the way, I LOVE LOVE LOVE all those gifs you come up with!

 

Oh, thank you. I've got myself a collection of them, they follow me like minions around the web. 

[Arcadia]

...Steven Moffat could definitely have a sinister plan to turn us slowly into Andersons - or the writers haven't completely decided, where they want to take the story and want to keep several options open - which also turns us into Andersons as a side effect....

Also possible! :D Moffat will never tell.....

[J.P.]

 

Maybe I should found my own 'Empty Hearse' franchise here in Germany.  ;) 

 

 

And we should start with fake beards. Maybe red-beards. (being silly again)

 

 

Now, did you have a discussion about the Karachi scene?

[Inge l-w]

Watched the whole "grieving" part. Dang, it DOES make sense, if you don't let yourself to be carried away by the music. It seems possible that she texted S to let him know she's alive. When you see him walking back, the strange way of showing him can also implicate extreme thinking. His eyes always makes those fast movements when he is "reading data". And that's what he does. Why? Because he knows that it wasn't Irene in the morgue, and that makes him wanting to unlock her phone even more. He THINKS about it while composing... etc, etc...

 

Absolutely, definitely NOT! The window next to the periodic table is ajar on its length. Are we all watching the same thing here? Mine is the DVD version with commentary, had to rewind and pause three times already. The sash window on the far side of the bed is closed, the one near the door is slightly ajar, not open.

[littlefoot]

J.P. Yes, the Karachi scene, that's a good one...Sherlock never seems to leave Bakerstreet - unless he is in Belarus, Karachi or Serbia... all places East of England btw...

I'm inclined to believe it's real. Don't ask me why, though. But in order to sneak into those terrorist cells he must've been away for awhile. Maybe that was a good opportunity for assorted baddies to place hidden cameras in the flat? But we should discuss the camera separately...

[Inge l-w]

You will find the answer in the BBC volume called Sherlock The Casebook, where the stump of his ticket can be found on p. 105. It is worth going through it carefully, although it only covers seasons 1 and 2. Another helpful vademecum is Sherlock Every canon reference you may have missed in BBCs Series 1-3 by Valerie Estelle Frankel.

[J.P.]

 

The sash window on the far side of the bed is closed, the one near the door is slightly ajar, not open.

 

The main thing is - it's not locked :D

As someone who had the pleasure of getting into own flat trough a window, I assure you - that's enough.

[J.P.]

You will find the answer in the BBC volume called Sherlock The Casebook, where the stump of his ticket can be found on p. 105. It is worth going through it carefully, although it only covers seasons 1 and 2. Another helpful vademecum is Sherlock Every canon reference you may have missed in BBCs Series 1-3 by Valerie Estelle Frankel.

 

Thank you for the info.

 

As for the scene - at first viewing it was good for a laugh -> again, a comic relief before it turns too kitchy. But then... I know  - it was probably discussed at nauseam, I only want to add - for me it doesn't fit style-like, and looks a step or two beyond what I see as plausible/realistic within the show's universum.

 

Alone against a bunch of armed baddies - with this ridiculous pirate saber... That's a tad too big to swallow without choking.

[T.o.b.y]

Alone against a bunch of armed baddies - with this ridiculous pirate saber... That's a tad too big to swallow without choking.

 

I still sort of cling to my head-canon that the Karachi scene isn't real, but just a day-dream of Sherlock's. I mean, it is such a male fantasy. I know it's supposed to be real, because the showrunners said so, but as long as they don't provide any real evidence for that in the story, I can continue to believe it is not, and thus enjoy the episode whole-heartedly.

 

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear Toby, it was his one great chance of saving a flawed damsel in distress and act out his piratical childhood fantasies, infiltration seems to be his forte later on with the whole Moriarity gang. Perhaps after university Mycroft tried to get him into Security Services training, which explains his high security clearance, after all, not everybody gets a job interview at Buckingham Palace, his ability to access files which are restricted, like the Appledore blueprints, his martial arts technique was proven against two assassins in TBB and he fended off a strangulation attempt in that episode. Which is why I find it hilarious that he lets John even lay hands on him in TEH.

[littlefoot]

Great comment, Inge! Yes, Sherlock has this 'piratical' or adventurous streak in him. And the physical capabilities are there, too. Since this scene is obviously replayed straight from Sherlock's mind, he might've embellished a bit as well.

Later, in Serbia at the beginning of TEH, we find him in an equally adventurous situation. So, he does things like that.

I wrote about my puzzlement re: Mycroft's remarks to John, concerning the fate of Irene. I rewatched and came to the conclusion that Mycroft was on a 'fishing expedition'. He might not have been totally sure about what happened to Irene and wanted to see John's reaction to different scenarios - just in case John was privvy to some of Sherlock's actions in the last few month.

[Carol the Dabbler]

You have a point, because in the scene in his bedroom the sash window is definitely closed and probably fastened, while the one which is ajar is so lengthwise and therefore not a possible means of a clandestine entry, while the one in the kitchen, later on, when he finds her in his bed, is open at the bottom, thus permitting someone from outside to enter clandestinely. Irene may be slim, but she is not a wraith.

In this show, people can just about enter through keyholes. Have a good look at the skylight that the Chinese acrobat supposedly used to enter Lukis's apartment in "Blind Banker."

 

As for her phone in his coat hanging behind the door, it is still puzzling and a definite plot hole.

 

Wasn't that Sherlock's phone in his coat pocket?

Yes, it's Sherlock's. It was in his pocket all the time. Irene manipulated it, so it moans each time he gets a text from her.

OK, so I'm still puzzled -- Inge, were you simply confused over whose phone it was?  (Which is fine, by the way.)  Or did you mean to say his phone, in which case could you tell me what puzzling plot-hole you're referring to?  Thanks!

 

... either Mycroft believes Irene is really dead, or he knows darn well (or suspects) that Sherlock saved her and wants to see John's reaction. ... either Mycroft genuinely wants John's opinion on which story they should tell Sherlock, since John is the one closest to him; or Mycroft already knows Irene's gotten away, and just wants to see John's reaction when he tells him she's dead. Maybe both.

We are talking about Mycroft here -- you do understand that?  ;)

 

I realize that your favorite interpretation is that we don't know.  But I am (currently) very fond of the idea that Sherlock actually did fool Mycroft.  So both of the stories he told John are true -- the official story (which absolutely everyone believes except for Irene and Sherlock) is that she's dead -- but Sherlock spirited her away into some kind of witness protection program (presumably his own homemade version), and there she will presumably stay.

 

I still sort of cling to my head-canon that the Karachi scene isn't real, but just a day-dream of Sherlock's. I mean, it is such a male fantasy. I know it's supposed to be real, because the showrunners said so, but as long as they don't provide any real evidence for that in the story, I can continue to believe it is not, and thus enjoy the episode whole-heartedly.

We had a couple discussions of that a while back, beginning here and again here.  You might enjoy reading them.

 

[Inge l-w]

Dear Carol, I corrected the pronoun, which was a typing error, and I still want to know how she disappears with his coat and his phone in the coat of said pocket, while both of them are to be found later hanging on his bedroom door, while Irene clearly appears as a figment of his drugged mind and John specifically says that she was never there, when he awakens from his drugged stupor.

[sittything]

Dear Carol, I corrected the pronoun, which was a typing error, and I still want to know how she disappears with his coat and his phone in the coat of said pocket, while both of them are to be found later hanging on his bedroom door, while Irene clearly appears as a figment of his drugged mind and John specifically says that she was never there, when he awakens from his drugged stupor.

I'm with Toby in that John just didn't know that she entered the flat, which is why he said she was never there. My assumption has always been that she entered through the partially open/cracked window by the periodic table.

 

ETA: I also don't think Irene is a figment of his mind. I think she appears in his mind because she's there speaking to him. It's like when you fall asleep with the TV on and then bits of the TV seep into your dreams. The only part I haven't entirely nailed down to my satisfaction is when she solves the case of the hiker. It could take place right after she drugs him or when she returns the coat. I think I've always assumed it occurred right after she drugged him as he's fading out, but I can see a case for it either way. Thoughts?

[Arcadia]

 

The sash window on the far side of the bed is closed, the one near the door is slightly ajar, not open.

 

The main thing is - it's not locked :D

As someone who had the pleasure of getting into own flat trough a window, I assure you - that's enough.

 

I'll second that! Was your incident as embarrassing as mine? :lol:

 

Alone against a bunch of armed baddies - with this ridiculous pirate saber... That's a tad too big to swallow without choking.

I've never really thought about it before, but you're right! In that case, I think I'll adopt Toby's "male fantasy" theory....

.... I find it hilarious that he lets John even lay hands on him in TEH.

I think it was because he knew he had it coming. I notice he doesn't fight back in Scandal either, the loon. 

 

 

... either Mycroft believes Irene is really dead, or he knows darn well (or suspects) that Sherlock saved her and wants to see John's reaction. ... either Mycroft genuinely wants John's opinion on which story they should tell Sherlock, since John is the one closest to him; or Mycroft already knows Irene's gotten away, and just wants to see John's reaction when he tells him she's dead. Maybe both.

We are talking about Mycroft here -- you do understand that?  ;)

 

Oops, sorry, did I say Mycroft? I meant Mrs. Hudson.

 

 

Dear Carol, I corrected the pronoun, which was a typing error, and I still want to know how she disappears with his coat and his phone in the coat of said pocket, while both of them are to be found later hanging on his bedroom door, while Irene clearly appears as a figment of his drugged mind and John specifically says that she was never there, when he awakens from his drugged stupor.

I'm with Toby in that John just didn't know that she entered the flat, which is why he said she was never there. My assumption has always been that she entered through the partially open/cracked window by the periodic table.

 

I'm going with the crowd here, I think it's pretty clear that John was just mistaken. Irene followed them to Baker St., stole into Sherlock's room, told him her boomerang theory, and left, leaving his coat and phone behind. And because she'd decided to play with him for awhile,  she altered the text tone on his phone (which apparently he didn't know how to change. Or he actually enjoyed it? )

[T.o.b.y]

 

I'm going with the crowd here, I think it's pretty clear that John was just mistaken. Irene followed them to Baker St., stole into Sherlock's room, told him her boomerang theory, and left, leaving his coat and phone behind. And because she'd decided to play with him for awhile,  she altered the text tone on his phone (which apparently he didn't know how to change. Or he actually enjoyed it? )

 

Of course he enjoyed it! The sound and how other people around him reacted to it. Sherlock loves to shock people and get attention.