Eurus

[J.P.]

The child was so... weird! She was disturbingly calm about the whole thing. There was one scene where she sat on the ground among the dead people, drinking juice (I still think they were dead, not asleep, probably because of the "flight of the dead" motif that I am familiar with from A Scandal in Belgravia but also because they all look really lifeless, not as if they were merely sleeping). That gave me chills.

 

This was also my thought. I noticed it by the second view, though. You might get the impression that she is acting.

I also wonder if the episode worked with only a voiceover, without actually showing the airplane. Would it made the audience believe it's real?

 

As for picking up the fight, my impression is still that the baddie is actually Sherlock's addiction. CS just happened at the right moment. Or maybe not. Need to rewatch. My DVDs are here since Tuesday, but I don't find time for them.

[Arcadia]

 

Oh my god. Can you all imagine "Euros vs Mary"? It would be like Godzilla vs King Kong or Alien vs Predator and the Holmes brothers and John would just be bystanders trying not to get trampled on and looking after Rosie while Mommy is busy.

 

I'd watch it! :popcorn:

 

[bedelia1984]

 

...

Also Euros didn't necessarily need to know that John had a shaky marriage in order to enact her plan to make him fall for her. Remember Euros has mind control powers. She could have easily mind controlled John into falling for her.

 

This is another reason why I dislike Euros' mind control powers. They take away agency from other characters and that cheapens some of the development that characters receive. For example, that scene at the end of The Lying Detective, where John admits to the Mary hallucination that he cheated on her is now a lot less effective since we know Euros has mind control powers. Maybe it wasn't John's fault at all that he felt like cheating on Mary?

 

 

Another reason to wish Mary wasn't dead... I so want to see the conversation where John explains to Mary how he was only texting E due to her powers or mind control!

 

Whatever she may have done as his therapist, I don't believe that as the bus girl she exerted much control beyond the usual sort over John- their in-person encounter was extremely brief- she's good, but is she that good?

 

 

 

I wondered if maybe Molly was in on Sherlock's plan, and was faking how bad off he was. But we'll never know, I guess. But they have made it clear over and over again that you can't take everything Sherlock says for granted. (The stinker. )

 

 

...Mary seems almost interconnected with the Eurus storyline, despite being dead before it started.

 

I'm sorry, I don't think you meant to be funny, but for some reason that line left me rolling on the floor. 

 

 

I think Molly was in on it too! Obviously much has been made elsewhere of what went on during the ambulance journey, that being the case, but not any such wild suppositions would not be fodder for a classy joint such as this forum.

 

And glad to be of amusement, as much as I did not realise what I was saying  :D

 

Funny how differently we all think sometimes... When I saw Euros, I thought oh - this is why Mary had to die early, she had to be out of the way to make Euros a big enough threat for the boys.

 

Oh my god. Can you all imagine "Euros vs Mary"? It would be like Godzilla vs King Kong or Alien vs Predator and the Holmes brothers and John would just be bystanders trying not to get trampled on and looking after Rosie while Mommy is busy.

 

Can Mary please come back from the dead in s5 for this? I hear Amanda is game.

[Carol the Dabbler]

It just occurred to me (please forgive me if it's been mentioned somewhere already) that the "Did you miss me?" campaign was Eurus's work and therefore she saved Sherlock from almost certain death. Does she get any brownie points for that? Do they offset whatever-the-hell she meant to do to him later? (E.g., I assume blowing up 221B was also her work -- but why? -- not to mention that whole thing at Sherrinford.)

[bedelia1984]

Hmmm, to give her credit we have to assume she deliberately released the message just then, to save him, and that she meant well in doing so (and wasn't just hoping she could cook up a worse fate than whatever he was originally headed to).

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hmmm, to give her credit we have to assume she deliberately released the message just then, to save him....

 

Yeah, but otherwise it's one o' them coincidence things.

[bedelia1984]

 

Hmmm, to give her credit we have to assume she deliberately released the message just then, to save him....

Yeah, but otherwise it's one o' them coincidence things.

 

 

It is a better story if she saved him, so why not? Wait, does this make her and Moriarty joint saviours of Sherlock? As well as being involved in a threesome with a glass wall together? It's a lot to have accomplished in just five little minutes.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Kinda kinky too. ;)

[bedelia1984]

It's so desperately unfair that Moriarty died. Imagine the family get togethers if he was alive and Eurus and he were dating. Sigh.

 

Of course, for Christmas he'd have to break her out of Sherrinford, so they could get to the Holmes family retreat, but really, that would be child's play for the two of them.

[Arcadia]

Good god, it sounds like hiatus madness is already taking over! :o

 

I don't give her any brownie points, cuz I think the only reason she saved Sherlock was so she could vivisect him herself later. Bad Eurus.

 

Although over in the TFP thread, sfmpco has a theory that Eurus was trying to save Sherlock all along, and that's why she put him through those trials. http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/3549-episode-43-the-final-problem/?p=117039

[bedelia1984]

I do think Moriarty and Eurus were more fond of Sherlock than some other villains. Like, say they liked him more than CAM, because they both seemed to enjoy their interaction with Sherlock. Maybe when you recognise a worthy opponent, you don't want to lose them too easily, because they are quite rare, in their line of work?

 

And that Eurus liked Sherlock more than Moriarty. But, Moriarty, in a way, perhaps predicted Sherlock would outlive him, and was okay with that, and happy to leave him to his sister's hands.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

... over in the TFP thread, sfmpco has a theory that Eurus was trying to save Sherlock all along, and that's why she put him through those trials. http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/3549-episode-43-the-final-problem/?p=117039

Thanks for the link, Arcadia. I'm still too chicken to read the whole thread, but that one post is certainly interesting. Several of her subpoints explain things that had been puzzling me, and I'm definitely intrigued by her overall theory.

[Arcadia]

Yeh, I forget what they are at the moment , but she clarified a couple bits I've been puzzling over. I still don't think Eurus was represented as capable of feeling love, though, so I can't quite buy into the whole argument.

[Carol the Dabbler]

OK then, how about she wants Sherlock to remember her. It comes down to the same "therapy." She didn't realize that he had no memory of her whatsoever, but perhaps she figured he would have repressed some things.

[Arcadia]

This is what I go round and round with ... to me, she's described as, and acts as, clinically insane (or whatever the proper term is these days.) So does she even have a motivation? I guess she can have, but wouldn't it be, er, crazy? Or is she capable of a rational purpose, even if she randomly descends into irrational behavior? Don't know, and not even sure it matters, since, ultimately, her purpose in the story is to (as sfmpco put it) break Sherlock apart. Whether it's intentional on her part or not might be beside the point. (But she fascinates me, dang it. Boy, she'd mind-control me in a heartbeat, wouldn't she? :D)

[bedelia1984]

 

But she fascinates me, dang it. Boy, she'd mind-control me in a heartbeat, wouldn't she? :D)

 

There is something seductive about her as a character,  isn't there? As much as I am annoyed at Mycroft for the way he somewhat indulged her (with the Moriarty/ government work exchange), i can totally imagine becoming a bit fascinated himself, and being compelled to play her game, just a little bit, to see her in action. 

 

I wonder also, if some part of him was actually proud of her brilliance, and her coldness.

 

It's a bit strange that Mycroft believes caring is not an advantage, when if, for his sister, she were able to care more for others, her life would be so much better. Then again, maybe the fact he does care about her, and about Sherlock, has made his life quite difficult.

[gerry]

Can you imagine having siblings like Eurus and Sherlock, having to look out for them in all of their self destructive attitudes? I may be just as detached as Mycroft if I did that for my entire adulthood. That's why the grown up comment from Mrs. Holmes didn't work for me in TFP. Mycroft certainly made mistakes but he's definitely more mature than his siblings.

[bedelia1984]

I would like to see Mrs. Holmes cut poor Mycroft a little slack! Especially when we know what a big and bad thing it is in his world to upset Mummy.

 

[Arcadia]

You know, that was the first thing I thought when Sherlock first went to meet Eurus ... if she's so good at manipulating people, why is Mycroft allowing Sherlock to meet with her unsupervised? But I guess he assumed he and Sherl are too smart to be affected by her.

 

At any rate, I half expected that to be part of the plot ... Mycroft had been manipulated by Eurus without his even realizing. But apparently not. And I can see why ... the way the series ended up going, they had too much plot already.

[Carol the Dabbler]

This is what I go round and round with ... to me, she's described as, and acts as, clinically insane (or whatever the proper term is these days.) So does she even have a motivation? I guess she can have, but wouldn't it be, er, crazy? Or is she capable of a rational purpose, even if she randomly descends into irrational behavior?

 

I know only one person I would classify as seriously mentally ill (though not like Eurus of course), and they can be extremely rational in their motivation. They even know what *not* to say to their therapist in order to be diagnosed as only mildly mentally ill. In their case, what's "crazy" is their rationalizations for their own behavior. They can basically justify (to themselves) doing some really irrational things. But they apparently know what will sound crazy to others, so they're very careful about what they tell their therapist.

[Arcadia]

Yes, I'm afraid I know exactly what you mean.

 

Hmmm ... Eurus is capable of acting like normal people ... she just chooses not to while in Sherrinford. (Or maybe she thinks her creepy madwoman look gives her an advantage.) I tend to forget about her other personas once TFP starts. Sooooo .... okay, I'm on a deadline here, so I'll have to think about this later. But I think maybe you're on to something.

[bedelia1984]

I read one opinion about Eurus on a blog (sorry I can't remember which one) that said an overload of feelings had driven her mad.

 

Before that, I had been viewing her as limited emotionally, but it is interesting to consider the reverse- that as well as having too many thoughts, she had too many feelings ("I lost count") and that was partly what overwhelmed her and led to her madness? Any credence to that?

 

I completely agree about the fact that a mentally ill person can know how to look sane. Also, institutionalisation breeds manipulative behaviour. If a person is trapped, it is the only way to gain control, sometimes the only way to survive. She's capable of 'acting' normal, but I think in order for it to be worth her while, there has to be an ulterior motive. She couldn't do it in sincerity. A bit like Moriarty as Jim from IT. The fun is in the deception.

[Arcadia]

Yup, that rings true to me.

 

As far as what made her the way she is ... I keep going back's to Mycroft's story about her not knowing "which one's pain." At age 5, I believe. So I really think she was born that way, not made.

 

Also the idea that it was decided early on that therapy wouldn't work for her, that incarceration was the only answer ... again, I take that to mean it was something she was born with, and therefore couldn't be undone by treatment.

 

It really does explain quite a lot about the whole family, doesn't it?

[Arcadia]

Okay, to go back to Carol's point ... let's assume for awhile that Eurus had a rational motivation her actions. (Well, rational by her standards.)

 

What was it? :D

 

 

Okay, okay, here's the theories I've seen so far (and I may be missing some):

 

She loves Sherlock and wants to awaken him to a life of emotional context.

She wants Sherlock to come and save her from being alone.

She wants to harm Sherlock because he ignored her when they were children.

She wants to play with Sherlock. Although presumbably there's an endgame there, so that may actually be the same as one of the first three.

She wants to learn what emotions are by subjecting Sherlock to "vivisection."

She gets off on torturing people and Sherlock's just her latest victim.

 

On your marks, get set ... go.

[bedelia1984]

It is a difficult question to answer.

 

Sherlock has to be really special to her- it is him and not Mycroft that she goes to all this trouble for. What she did to Sherlock was also a big part of why she was sent away and lost her freedom. And even before that, she was fixated on him. I'd go so far as to say she is obsessed with her brother, but is that love? I'm not sure.

 

I think maybe on some level, she wants to compare Sherlock to herself, to see what it is that he has, that she does not, by taking him apart.

 

I wonder if before she met Sherlock, she had a totally different idea of him, that he would somehow have an ideal life, because he had her advantages, and not her weaknesses? As an unknown, he would be easier to envy that Mycroft, who doesn't exactly seem like he's always having the best time ever. And she remembers sherlock as the lovable one of the family, which she never was. But when she met him, she realised he still had a lot of issues himself? Maybe that look she gave him after Molly's phone call was recognising that. I don't know if I see her as being capable of understanding that she caused some of the problems that Sherlock now has though. I don't know where to place her level of understanding of emotional consequences.