Eurus

[Carol the Dabbler]

I doubt if it's that simple, based on a certain person I know who has a personality disorder. Yes, she is capable of acting "normal" when it suits her ends, but I genuinely believe she is not capable of maintaining the fiction, or of understanding why she should. I've known her for a long, long time, and I don't see any sign that she's any more capable than before of "choosing" to be "normal". Quite the reverse, in fact.

 

What I do see is that she increasingly believes that everyone else is the problem, not her. We're too dumb, too conventional, too mundane to possibly understand the glorious heights of insight which she travels. Sound familiar?

 

All too familiar, unfortunately, and not just from Sherlock. The person I know is quite capable of faking normal behavior when she feels it's necessary (e.g., to avoid getting labelled with the diagnosis that those who know her think that she really should have).

 

But I really doubt that she thinks of it as acting "good" or "normal," merely as doing what's necessary to save herself from the bad guys (same as if you or I were placating kidnappers). Which may well apply to Eurus also.

[gerry]

 

... how can she tell the security guard she had sex with was breakable if she couldn't recognize the person's emotions after the incident?

 

Because the guard was broken? Or to quote Eurus, there wasn't much left. I take that rather literally, I'm afraid. :(

I didn't but now that you put that idea in my head, I'm even more disturbed by Eurus.

[Arcadia]

Carol, it sounds like you and I know the same person.

 

Another thing I find interesting ... my person acts different at home, in her own space ... weirder, but easier to get along with. Stick her in another environment and she goes into her "I'm swimming with the goldfish" routine -- which she can only maintain for so long, then the crazy starts to show. That's one thing I have trouble believing about Eurus ... that she could maintain those other guises without sometimes letting the weird come out. Although looking back on it, I do remember thinking Faith was a bit of an oddball herself, and that explained why she got on so well with Sherlock.

[Doe]

Now please stop now

 

I am duly chastised. 

[T.o.b.y]

Carol, it sounds like you and I know the same person.

 

Another thing I find interesting ... my person acts different at home, in her own space ... weirder, but easier to get along with. Stick her in another environment and she goes into her "I'm swimming with the goldfish" routine -- which she can only maintain for so long, then the crazy starts to show. That's one thing I have trouble believing about Eurus ... that she could maintain those other guises without sometimes letting the weird come out. Although looking back on it, I do remember thinking Faith was a bit of an oddball herself, and that explained why she got on so well with Sherlock.

I thought both Faith and the therapist were plenty weird. The therapist creeped me out even before I knew who she was.

[Arcadia]

Well, what I thought was weird about the therapist was that they never really showed her, and I couldn't figure out her accent. Of course, once I found out why, I stopped thinking about it.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Sorry to be late here, and I haven't read everything.

 

Has it been discussed before whether there is any significant to this three-pronged symbol to the character?

 

 

Three-pronged could be interpreted as a lot of things. Past, present, future. Thought, word, deed. Major, minor, conclusion. Or many others.

 

I just find the symbol way too obvious to be not significant in the plane scene, where they can save the trouble and budget by making it just plain/dark-coloured. That is not company logo for any actual British airline right?

[Arcadia]

Father, Son, Holy Ghost?

 

T for Trump?  

 

I think I just interpreted it as the tail of an airplane.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I am disappointed... :(

Nothing? Fine!

 

What about the little girl travelling with Mummy? Why she imagine mom was travelling with her but we never see any significance of the mom figure. The only one we see is when she overheard mom talking about how they couldn't control her that seemed to make her angrier.

 

Did she try to reach out to mom and ignored or misunderstood?

Sorry if it had been discussed before.

[Carol the Dabbler]

If that's been discussed, it was in the dreaded episode thread, so no problem.  Good question.  Hmm, gonna have to chew on that one for a while.

[Arcadia]

I don't think it was discussed.

 

I assumed the Mom figure on the plane corresponded to the Mom figure in real life ... Eurus has no attachment to her, she's just one of the people asleep on the plane. She did seem to reach out to Mum for answers at the beginning, but didn't get any.

 

Hmmm, that's a thought ... she did seem to be trying to make a connection with other people when she was in little girl mode. So the question for me is still .... does Eurus switch personalities back and forth, from the little lost girl to the coldly calculating psychopath? Or are we seeing the inner and outer representations of herself ... the little girl is how she sees herself, the grownup is what the rest of us see?

 

Ooof, I feel a meme coming on, if I had the time I'd make one for Eurus.....

[Van Buren Supernova]

..dreaded episode thread....

You too? XD

I'm glad I'm not alone..!

 

She did seem to reach out to Mum for answers at the beginning, but didn't get any.

 

Hmmm, that's a thought ... she did seem to be trying to make a connection with other people when she was in little girl mode.

That is why I wonder if she tried and failed for real. Mummy Holmes seems like attentive mom, so I wonder what went wrong there. Having said that, I do read stuff about parents fail to connect with their genius kids, but that doesn't mean that would push them out of angel side.

 

And then, did she try to connect with Mycroft and failed too? She is close to Sherlock's age but Mycroft has closer intelligence level, and kid Mycroft looked lonely, willing and happy to play with his brother and sister. Of all people available to her, she resented Sherlock for having another friend, from what we see, Sherlock didn't seem to treat her bad as well.

 

All these actually bring me to question that hardly has defined answer: whether psychopathy is nature or nurture.

 

Also, super genius intelligent person seems less likely to put the importance of social and kid's play because they mostly have mature minds. I assume.

 

So the question for me is still .... does Eurus switch personalities back and forth, from the little lost girl to the coldly calculating psychopath? Or are we seeing the inner and outer representations of herself ... the little girl is how she sees herself, the grownup is what the rest of us see?

...

What about bipolar? But I'm not sure it fits as well.

[Arcadia]

 

..dreaded episode thread....

You too? XD

I'm glad I'm not alone..!

 

Wimps. :P

 

 

She did seem to reach out to Mum for answers at the beginning, but didn't get any.

 

Hmmm, that's a thought ... she did seem to be trying to make a connection with other people when she was in little girl mode.

That is why I wonder if she tried and failed for real. Mummy Holmes seems like attentive mom, so I wonder what went wrong there. Having said that, I do read stuff about parents fail to connect with their genius kids, but that doesn't mean that would push them out of angel side.

 

And then, did she try to connect with Mycroft and failed too? She is close to Sherlock's age but Mycroft has closer intelligence level, and kid Mycroft looked lonely, willing and happy to play with his brother and sister. Of all people available to her, she resented Sherlock for having another friend, from what we see, Sherlock didn't seem to treat her bad as well.

 

All these actually bring me to question that hardly has defined answer: whether psychopathy is nature or nurture.

 

Also, super genius intelligent person seems less likely to put the importance of social and kid's play because they mostly have mature minds. I assume.

 

So the question for me is still .... does Eurus switch personalities back and forth, from the little lost girl to the coldly calculating psychopath? Or are we seeing the inner and outer representations of herself ... the little girl is how she sees herself, the grownup is what the rest of us see?

...

What about bipolar? But I'm not sure it fits as well.

 

Yeah, I tend to think of bipolar as people who swing from depression to mania and back, more than anything else. Although they can do weird things in both states, from what I understand. Sad, horrible things.

 

To me, Eurus sounds more like this: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-identity-disorder-multiple-personality-disorder#1

Dissociateve identity disorder ... which I didn't realize until now is also associated with multiple personality disorder. Hmmm. Anyway, here's part of the description:

 

Most of us have experienced mild dissociation, which is like daydreaming or getting lost in the moment while working on a project. However, dissociative identity disorder is a severe form of dissociation, a mental process which produces a lack of connection in a person's thoughts, memories, feelings, actions, or sense of identity. Dissociative identity disorder is thought to stem from a combination of factors that may include trauma experienced by the person with the disorder. The dissociative aspect is thought to be a coping mechanism -- the person literally dissociates himself from a situation or experience that's too violent, traumatic, or painful to assimilate with his conscious self.

But then they go on to describe the multiple personality aspect of the disorder, which sounds less like Eurus to me:

 

Dissociative identity disorder is characterized by the presence of two or more distinct or split identities or personality states that continually have power over the person's behavior. With dissociative identity disorder, there's also an inability to recall key personal information that is too far-reaching to be explained as mere forgetfulness. With dissociative identity disorder, there are also highly distinct memory variations, which fluctuate with the person's split personality.

 

I don't get the impression she has any problems with her memory; if anything, quite the opposite.

 

Still, I imagine Moftiss didn't set out to match a specific diagnosis, they were just trying to think of the scariest thing Sherlock could become if he continued down the road he was on earlier. And then worked a little psychological disorder into it so we could empathize with Eurus instead of condemning her as purposefully evil, like Culverton Smith or CAM.

 

I'm also troubled by the mention of "trauma" ... they certainly didn't indicate that Eurus had suffered a trauma, she was just born that way. And I'd hate to think they're implying her parents let any trauma befall her. No no no no.

 

But you know who that diagnosis also fits ... almost? Sherlock. He's the one who rewrote his memories and changed personalities, according to Mycroft. Which I also don't like, the implication that Sherlock has been suffering some sort of psychosis all this time and is finally cured. And again, I don't think that's what they mean to imply, but still ..... At any rate, I enjoyed thinking he was the way he was mostly because it was just fun -- for him -- to be that way. Thumbing his nose at convention and all that. Although I also like that as he gets older he modifies it ... somehow it's easier to put up with misbehavior from a younger man than from an older one. It's sort of cute in the young. Sometimes. Maybe. Hm. Don't want to encourage my little nephews to misbehave.....

 

Here's another disorder that sort of fits, but not really: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

Borderline personality disorder

 

Borderline personality disorder may be characterized by the following signs and symptoms:

Markedly disturbed sense of identity

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment and extreme reactions to such

Splitting ("black-and-white" thinking)

Impulsivity and impulsive or dangerous behaviours

Intense or uncontrollable emotional reactions that often seem disproportionate to the event or situation

Unstable and chaotic interpersonal relationships

Self-damaging behavior

Distorted self-image

Dissociation

Frequently accompanied by depression, anxiety, anger, substance abuse, or rage

The most distinguishing symptoms of BPD are marked sensitivity to rejection or criticism, and intense fear of possible abandonment. Overall, the features of BPD include unusually intense sensitivity in relationships with others, difficulty regulating emotions, and impulsivity. Other symptoms may include feeling unsure of one's personal identity, morals, and values; having paranoid thoughts when feeling stressed; dissociation and depersonalization; and, in moderate to severe cases, stress-induced breaks with reality or psychotic episodes.

 

People with BPD may feel emotions more easily, more deeply, and longer than others do.

 

 

And it looks like this is one that usually develops in the young, and maybe more nature than nuture. The first part kind of works for Eurus, but that "sensitivity" and "feeling deep emotions" stuff .... not so sure. Mycroft implies she has emotions, but she can't tell one from the other. So maybe she does have strong emotions, she just doesn't understand them?

 

But then she's perfectly capable of acting "normal" for sustained periods of time, which suggests she has more control over her own nature than someone with either of these disorders would .... maybe?

 

At any rate, I'm opting for some kind of cross-wiring in the brain from birth, and nothing to do with her environment. It happens, unfortunately. But I'm reluctant to blame her upbringing until I see some evidence.

[bedelia1984]

It has been too long since I watched this one, but I think there was also some mention of the mother possibly taking away Eurus' favourite hair band to try and get her to tell where Victor is? The impression I got was that the mother and Eurus had a more antagonistic relationship, whereas Mr. Holmes was possibly more distant/ in denial about how bad Eurus' problems were.

 

About the Borderline personality disorder (sorry I can't quote on my phone) she does IMO resemble people who have this, I have worked with some, especially the manipulative/ charismatic aspect. But I also see some kind of developmental disorder in her, probably partly because I have been studying the area recently, in some emotional areas Eurus seems to not have left her childhood self behind, and also her sense of empathy is greatly underdeveloped.

 

It occurred to me while reading people's thoughts about the parents that perhaps in a way the Governor and his wife were surrogates for the parents, but why did Eurus not tackle them head-on in some way? Or was that part two of what she had planned?

[Arcadia]

I really don't think the hair band had anything to do with the story other than as a way to show Eurus remembers Sherlock, but not the other way around. Here's the dialog:

 

 

(https://arianedevere.dreamwidth.org/64663.html)

 

EURUS: Did you bring it?
SHERLOCK: I’m sorry?
EURUS: My hairband. Did you bring it like I asked?
SHERLOCK (hesitantly): I’m not one of the ... I-I don’t work here.
EURUS: My special hairband.
SHERLOCK (more firmly): I’m not one of your doctors.
EURUS (sounding exasperated): The one I made you steal, from Mummy.
(She turns to face him.)
EURUS: It was the last thing I said to you, remember, the day they took me away.
SHERLOCK (shaking his head slightly): No.
EURUS: No?
SHERLOCK: No, we’ve spoken since then. You came round to my flat a few weeks back; you pretended to be a woman called Faith Smith. We had chips.
EURUS: Does this mean you didn’t bring my hairband?

 

 

And then it's never mentioned again. To me it sounds like it was Mummy's hairband, Eurus just wanted it and got Sherlock to steal it.

 

In your studies, Bedelia, have you learned what they do with people who have these conditions, if they are dangerous? (I.e., murderous.) Just lock 'em up and throw away the key?

[J.P.]

Maybe Eurus' idea of playing with Sherlock was actually playing him? In this case it would be no wonder that he preferred Victor.

[Arcadia]

Yeah, I bet she didn't want to play pirates.

 

I think one thing I do like about Eurus' story is they didn't try to make it have a happy ending, with redemption and forgiveness all around. It's a proper family tragedy. Not much fun, but emotionally honest. Except that you are left wondering about how good the parents are at parenting, that kind of bothers me. I'll bet Sherl and Mikey are terrified of having children of their own; they're afraid they'll ruin them. I know the feeling. :p

[bedelia1984]

I really don't think the hair band had anything to do with the story other than as a way to show Eurus remembers Sherlock, but not the other way around. Here's the dialog:

 

 

(https://arianedevere.dreamwidth.org/64663.html)

 

EURUS: Did you bring it?

SHERLOCK: I’m sorry?

EURUS: My hairband. Did you bring it like I asked?

SHERLOCK (hesitantly): I’m not one of the ... I-I don’t work here.

EURUS: My special hairband.

SHERLOCK (more firmly): I’m not one of your doctors.

EURUS (sounding exasperated): The one I made you steal, from Mummy.

(She turns to face him.)

EURUS: It was the last thing I said to you, remember, the day they took me away.

SHERLOCK (shaking his head slightly): No.

EURUS: No?

SHERLOCK: No, we’ve spoken since then. You came round to my flat a few weeks back; you pretended to be a woman called Faith Smith. We had chips.

EURUS: Does this mean you didn’t bring my hairband?

 

 

And then it's never mentioned again. To me it sounds like it was Mummy's hairband, Eurus just wanted it and got Sherlock to steal it.

 

In your studies, Bedelia, have you learned what they do with people who have these conditions, if they are dangerous? (I.e., murderous.) Just lock 'em up and throw away the key?

 

Ah, I read way too much into that, clearly. I thought the mother was holding the hairband in hopes of getting her to talk, but now I don't know why.

 

Interestingly, the trainer we had mentioned that a high percentage of people with developmental disorders end up in prison, through what the educators would consider unfair circumstances of a misunderstanding of their disorder- e.g. they are incapable of understanding the law in an adult manner, or are way more susceptible to peer pressure than to a common sense of ethics, due to the immense problems they have fitting in- if you can imagine how many young people who have some undiagnosed developmental issue but are viewed as 'slow' or 'weird' by other kids, will participate in a crime in an attempt to gain acceptance.

 

In an odd, reversed way, I can see what Eurus did in that light, as a really extreme reaction to not 'fitting in' with Sherlock and Victor.

 

The trainer said to us not to expect that some people will ever develop 'fully'- they might be intellectually fully developed, but never be emotionally capable of an adult relationship, etc, etc. Or, for other people it could just take a super long time for them to develop emotionally, much longer than the average person.

 

In general, we probably fail to recognise less extreme examples of this all the time- like when we take about 'late bloomers' etc.. It is interesting to me that the process of individuation can vary a lot from person to person- you can see strong examples of that in Sherlock with both Sherlock himself and Mycroft too, to my view- they are both so developed professionally, but not so much in some social/emotional aspects.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think the hair band thing could very easily be interpreted either way -- either it was Mummy's in the first place, but Eurus coveted it and thereforw thought of it as "hers" -- or it actually *was* hers but Mummy had confiscated it for some reason and Eurus wanted Sherlock to "steal" it back for her. The timing lends support to the latter theory, I think, because it happened just before she was taken away, presumably the first time, after killing Victor.

[J.P.]

IMO Eurus wanted Sherlock to steal Mummy's hairband just for fun - she loves to manipulate people. It's the same with the guy who killed his family and himself a bit later. I see it as a power-play of the "I will make you do things you don't want to do" kind.

[Arcadia]

That's my impression as well ... she enjoys manipulating people simply because she can. It's like playing with dolls, to her. She acts out her whims.

[Carol the Dabbler]

She does it because she can? That makes as much sense as anything.

[J.P.]

This must be her version of golf. :P

[bedelia1984]

I wonder is it possible to look at Eurus as a type of savant- she is very talented at some things- music, manipulation and yet quite slow to understand or empathise with others, not especially self aware?

[Van Buren Supernova]

Yeah, I tend to think of bipolar as people who swing from depression to mania and back, more than anything else. Although they can do weird things in both states, from what I understand. Sad, horrible things.

To me, Eurus sounds more like this: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-identity-disorder-multiple-personality-disorder#1

Dissociateve identity disorder ... which I didn't realize until now is also associated with multiple personality disorder. Hmmm. Anyway, here's part of the description:

 

 

 

 

 

Most of us have experienced mild dissociation, which is like daydreaming or getting lost in the moment while working on a project. However, dissociative identity disorder is a severe form of dissociation, a mental process which produces a lack of connection in a person's thoughts, memories, feelings, actions, or sense of identity. Dissociative identity disorder is thought to stem from a combination of factors that may include trauma experienced by the person with the disorder. The dissociative aspect is thought to be a coping mechanism -- the person literally dissociates himself from a situation or experience that's too violent, traumatic, or painful to assimilate with his conscious self.

 

But then they go on to describe the multiple personality aspect of the disorder, which sounds less like Eurus to me:

 

Dissociative identity disorder is characterized by the presence of two or more distinct or split identities or personality states that continually have power over the person's behavior. With dissociative identity disorder, there's also an inability to recall key personal information that is too far-reaching to be explained as mere forgetfulness. With dissociative identity disorder, there are also highly distinct memory variations, which fluctuate with the person's split personality.

 

I don't get the impression she has any problems with her memory; if anything, quite the opposite.

 

Still, I imagine Moftiss didn't set out to match a specific diagnosis, they were just trying to think of the scariest thing Sherlock could become if he continued down the road he was on earlier. And then worked a little psychological disorder into it so we could empathize with Eurus instead of condemning her as purposefully evil, like Culverton Smith or CAM.

 

I'm also troubled by the mention of "trauma" ... they certainly didn't indicate that Eurus had suffered a trauma, she was just born that way. And I'd hate to think they're implying her parents let any trauma befall her. No no no no.

 

But you know who that diagnosis also fits ... almost? Sherlock. He's the one who rewrote his memories and changed personalities, according to Mycroft. Which I also don't like, the implication that Sherlock has been suffering some sort of psychosis all this time and is finally cured. And again, I don't think that's what they mean to imply, but still ..... At any rate, I enjoyed thinking he was the way he was mostly because it was just fun -- for him -- to be that way. Thumbing his nose at convention and all that. Although I also like that as he gets older he modifies it ... somehow it's easier to put up with misbehavior from a younger man than from an older one. It's sort of cute in the young. Sometimes. Maybe. Hm. Don't want to encourage my little nephews to misbehave.....

 

Here's another disorder that sort of fits, but not really: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

Borderline personality disorder

 

Borderline personality disorder may be characterized by the following signs and symptoms:

Markedly disturbed sense of identity

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment and extreme reactions to such

Splitting ("black-and-white" thinking)

Impulsivity and impulsive or dangerous behaviours

Intense or uncontrollable emotional reactions that often seem disproportionate to the event or situation

Unstable and chaotic interpersonal relationships

Self-damaging behavior

Distorted self-image

Dissociation

Frequently accompanied by depression, anxiety, anger, substance abuse, or rage

The most distinguishing symptoms of BPD are marked sensitivity to rejection or criticism, and intense fear of possible abandonment. Overall, the features of BPD include unusually intense sensitivity in relationships with others, difficulty regulating emotions, and impulsivity. Other symptoms may include feeling unsure of one's personal identity, morals, and values; having paranoid thoughts when feeling stressed; dissociation and depersonalization; and, in moderate to severe cases, stress-induced breaks with reality or psychotic episodes.

 

People with BPD may feel emotions more easily, more deeply, and longer than others do.

 

And it looks like this is one that usually develops in the young, and maybe more nature than nuture. The first part kind of works for Eurus, but that "sensitivity" and "feeling deep emotions" stuff .... not so sure. Mycroft implies she has emotions, but she can't tell one from the other. So maybe she does have strong emotions, she just doesn't understand them?

 

But then she's perfectly capable of acting "normal" for sustained periods of time, which suggests she has more control over her own nature than someone with either of these disorders would .... maybe?

 

At any rate, I'm opting for some kind of cross-wiring in the brain from birth, and nothing to do with her environment. It happens, unfortunately. But I'm reluctant to blame her upbringing until I see some evidence.

Wow. Nice reading.

And thanks for pasting the content of those definitions, I have a thing of not wanting to click if they are links instead (cough lazy cough)

(BTW, when I deleted part of the post to make the quote shorter... did... did you call me wimp? :p)

 

I do agree from what we have seen it looks that the cross-wiring in the brain from birth.

 

Although actually I'm trying to find reason otherwise, because it's chilling in real life if, if, it's indeed nature that can't be helped by nurture. Does that mean that when someone is born not good there are little ways around it?

 

I read quite a bit about murderers, serial killers etc. Disclaimer that what I read means nothing as it's only tiny bit, I didn't study it, extensive studies would be needed to make sound observation, so this is only curious amateur.

 

There are good number of geniuses with capability of manipulating the psychological tests, murder by random so there is no traceable pattern etc which sound quite chilling to me.

 

Some had horrible childhood (which could be factored as nurture maybe but some had normal ordinary lives).

 

Many of them actually have ability to develop 'normal' relationships to selective people. They are capable of understanding the social needs of people in their lives and provide interactions, empathy and affections really well while being someone else behind who did all the crimes, wipe the blood at the end of the day and go home to play with their children like it's day job.

 

So yah, I'm afraid I read more nature than nurture but it remains inconclusive to me. I do hope it's not the case though, that everyone can reform given right circumstances and education. :(

But do I sound optimistic?

 

I wonder is it possible to look at Eurus as a type of savant- she is very talented at some things- music, manipulation and yet quite slow to understand or empathise with others, not especially self aware?

I actually buy this for Sherlock, but on arguably harmless level like sensitivity. And for Sherlock, it's more like he is trying very hard, too hard to surpress all those although I'm a bit confused because sometime he seems totally unaware while other times he seems sad and struggling. I'd say he is so good in it that he fools himself too.

 

But for Eurus., I don't know. I treat her level of intelligence as someone who should be able to diagnose herself before others do. She knows what she is and what she needs, and when she doesn't get it, she acts up. The thing that she fails hard is how to express or communicate it. Like many bloody geniuses, I guess she forgets that ordinary people may have difficulty of trying to understand her.

 

So if, if, someone managed to solve her riddle and found Redbeard, there would be two possible outcomes.

One, maybe they would understand and cater to her need, brushed it off as extreme child play and convinced themselves that she would tell them anyway.

Two, most probably they would lock her up anyway, because it is a horrible thing to do but at least it's known before more damages are done and maybe they would try to 'fix' it in better way.