Side Effects (aka Collateral Damage) of "Sherlock"

[HerlockSholmes]

 

 

There are definately some that hate Sherlock but I definately don’t count myself amongst them. Obviously I prefer the traditional Holmes but there have been some awful ‘traditional’ interpretations as well as some great ones so I prefer a good modern to a terrible traditional one any day.

 

There’s always a ‘cash-in’ when something new comes along and Sherlock was no different. What has surprised me is the fact that the individual episodes haven’t appeared in novel form. Surely they are missing a trick here? I’ve often seen books with Cumberbatch and Freeman on the front and thought that they had released them at last only to find out that they are just collections of Doyle stories.

 

The Moftisses have stated that they are opposed to publishing novelizations of the episodes, but they might make the shooting scripts available at some point. I would guess that point should be pretty damn soon, if they don't want the casual fans drifting away to something else. There are online copies of about half of the scripts, though, hopefully to be followed by the rest.

For some reason I missed this post Carol. Thanks for the info. I didn’t know that.

[HerlockSholmes]

 

The only members I've met in person so far are Tim, Banshee, and Aely (none of whom post much any more, though hopefully there's no connection), and nobody ran away screaming, so there's hope.

 

I keep thinking if a group of us were going to get together, it might be nice to have name tags with our avatars on them. Or maybe full-face masks of our avatars. Do you think that'd help?

Don't know, Carol ... I just pictured myself showing up with a full face mask of my avatar. I think there might actually be some running and screaming involved. :D

I’ve been thinking for a while about asking the Sherlock fans on here about their experiences of watching other versions of Holmes. I’d they liked or disliked about them? Or what puts them off about them? Just out of curiosity of course. I’m wary though of entering into a subject that others aren’t as interested in (or obsessed with, depending on your viewpoint☹️) as I am. I’d guess that I’m the only person on this forum that’s excited about the discovery of a ‘previously list’ silent Hound Of The Baskervilles so I’m a bit self-conscious about being the Forums ‘Holmes bore.’

I wouldn't worry about it, I think most people are perfectly capable of, er, ignoring posts they're not interested in. I think it would be a good question ... you might be surprised how many people around here are also interested in other Holmeses. (Then again, maybe you won't. :P) I know the discussions you and Hikari have had did encourage me to go back and read some more of the canon (although I haven't done it yet ... but at least it's back on my list of things to do!)

 

I loved the Brett series. I didn't swoon over it like I do over "Sherlock," but I remember looking forward to watching it with my dad every week. That's the part of it that sticks with me the most; it was something my dad and I shared. I'm only briefly familiar with any other versions, but that doesn't stop me from having opinions on them ... so ask away!

You are absolutely right. Though, when S1 aired in 2010 in the UK, the collected stories of Conan Doyle topped the best-seller lists once again for a big chunk of the year. He's always continued to sell well through the century-plus since SH was appearing in The Strand . . but the release of BBC Sherlock led to an insane flurry of buying ACD titles in newly-released editions.

See? :smile:

I love this one show not because it's Sherlock Holmes or for the cases, but because of this version Sherlock (and others) and how it's made.

But there are many people who discovered the canon because of the series.

Same here. I didn't start watching it because it was about Sherlock Holmes, I gave it a try because I'd heard so many great things about it, and I knew I liked Martin Freeman. And it wasn't until Season 3 aired - or, more accurately, went off the air - that I went off the deep end. I can't explain it; this is one of the few shows that feels like it was made for People Just Like Me. (All two dozen of us. :P) It could have been about Joe the Plumber and I suspect I would have been just as nuts about it, as long as it had the same verve/actors/style/etc.

 

But that doesn't lessen my enjoyment of other versions of Holmes. I don't know why, but I don't have any problem containing different versions of the same thing in my head. Star Trek, for instance ... I was mad about the universe of the original series, but I also love the reboot and it doesn't bother me at all that, for instance, Khan is suddenly a white guy. (Although, to be fair, he's not just any white guy... :naughty:) I remember really enjoying the Seven Percent Solution, for example. But I didn't lose my mind over it. I don't know why I succumbed so thoroughly to Sherlock, but I did. I blame Benedict. :P

The Moftisses have stated that they are opposed to publishing novelizations of the episodes, but they might make the shooting scripts available at some point. I would guess that point should be pretty damn soon, if they don't want the casual fans drifting away to something else. There are online copies of about half of the scripts, though, hopefully to be followed by the rest.

There is the manga version, though, which is not so different from a novelization. I haven't bought one, but I've seen a couple pages online and it looks to me like there's a least some additional material, in the same way there would be in a novelization. I wonder why they were okay with that but not the other.

I bought the first two (around 10 comics I think) but I won’t bother getting the rest. If being a collector leads you to buying things that you don’t really like ( and I don’t like Manga) then you need to have a bit of a re-think

[Arcadia]

Yeah, I love manga, but somehow the Sherlock manga appeals to me not at all. Maybe because it IS a novelization, and not an original story? At any rate, I'd rather spend my hard-earned shekels on the source material.

 

 

Same here. I didn't start watching it because it was about Sherlock Holmes, I gave it a try because I'd heard so many great things about it, and I knew I liked Martin Freeman. And it wasn't until Season 3 aired - or, more accurately, went off the air - that I went off the deep end. I can't explain it; this is one of the few shows that feels like it was made for People Just Like Me. (All two dozen of us. :P) It could have been about Joe the Plumber and I suspect I would have been just as nuts about it, as long as it had the same verve/actors/style/etc.

It fits like a glow doesn't it? It even has some bits I would write into a show if I was ever to write/make some.

 

 Yeah, I feel like the writers GET me! Which is silly, because they will never have any idea who I am. And I feel like Sherlock the character reflects me, which is even sillier because, hey, genius sociopathic consulting detective I most certainly am not. Probably something to do with that sense of being the eternal outsider, I suppose.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Like Spock.

[T.o.b.y]

I wonder why most people on here who say the show and the characters resonate with them are also fans of Star Trek while I never warmed to Star Trek at all. Weird. And my husband is a - what's the correct expression, Trekkie or Trekker? - and doesn't care about Sherlock. What's wrong with us? :-P

[Arcadia]

Nothing. You just complete each other! Aw, it was meant to be .... :wub: :rose: :inlove:

[J.P.]

Geez, I ment GLOVE. :blush:  My poor overworked brain lacks a bandwidth for trivial things, like foreign languages…

[T.o.b.y]

Nothing. You just complete each other! Aw, it was meant to be .... :wub: :rose: :inlove:

Yup. We are a happy couple (knock on wood). At least we both like Lord of the Rings. And Star Wars (the old trilogy). And it's not like we hate each other's favorite shows, they are just not special to us the way they are to the other person.

[Arcadia]

Geez, I ment GLOVE. :blush:  My poor overworked brain lacks a bandwidth for trivial things, like foreign languages…

 

I knew what you meant. Besides, I kind of liked "fits like a glow" -- it, er, fits. :smile:

[Carol the Dabbler]

Me too.  :D   J.P., just blame autocorrect -- that's what we native speakers do!

 

Tobe, if you want to be safe, better stick with trekker (or trekfan).  Some fans have adopted "trekkie" as their own, but there must be a number of old-line fans who still bristle at the term.  (It was quite the put-down, back when.)

[Janyss]

Another side effect I have to blaim Moftiss for: I began reading or re-reading the original novels and short stories by ACD...and sure I see them in another way now! Well, I already had an image of Sherlock Holmes and Doctor Watson as I had begun reading them after watching the Jeremy Brett series, but it was a very close adaptation. Moftiss's one gives more way to interpretation, franckly deals with subtext...and you read otherwise: now you see Watson's desperation and search for strong emotions when back in London in the opening scene, you can't help having the feeling of a bitter-sweet expression when you read Sherlock refering to "brother Mycroft" or when he says about him: "Jupiter is descending to-day"...and much more, I guess, as the series is both a faithful adaptation and the creation of a universe.

 

[Hikari]

"Jupiter is descending today" . . haha!  A very apt description of Brother Mycroft.

The Oracle of the Internet says this about Jupiter:

"Jupiter:  the supreme god in the Roman pantheon, called 'dies pater' (or 'shining father').  He is the god of light and sky, the protector of the state and its laws."

I mean, perfect, what?!

**************

Mycroft only appears twice in the Canon (The Greek Interpreter & The Bruce-Partington Plans).  In these stories, Sherlock is openly admiring and complimentary about his elder brother's superior gifts in their shared area of brain power.  There is virtually  no trace of the contentious sibling dynamic which is a hallmark of the BBC show.  Mycroft, being seven years the elder, reserves the right to gently scold his sibling sometimes, but there's no animosity, and Sherlock certainly does not get lippy with the Big M.  M. may be exasperated at times with Sherlock's decidedly erratic ways of working, but overlaying all is fraternal love & understanding.  Who, after all, can understand a Holmes like a Holmes?  Mycroft does not seek to mold or change his little brother, but accepts all his quirks and employs them for the good of the Crown when he has to.  For Sherlock's part, he allows Mycroft his separate orbit and tries not to bother/burden him . .unless absolutely necessary.  When there is trouble of the biggest, most serious kind, Sherlock goes to Mycroft like a vessel to its home port.

BBC Sherlock and Canon Holmes co-exist in my mind palace without much overlap.  Of all the episodes, only two strongly invoke their Canon inspirations (A Study in Pink; A Scandal in Bohemia).  The rest is so loosely adapted, it comes completely unmoored in the final two seasons to anything much resembling Conan Doyle, so one need not intrude on the other for me.

[Arcadia]

I'm pretty much the same; same names, different universe, I don't connect the two very much.

[J.P.]

The only joy I have from reading ACD is to find the bits and pieces Mofftiss sneaked from the canon.

[Janyss]

I tend to connect the books and the series very much (but I always do with any adaptation)....and after the Moftiss series I read The Bruce Partington first (yeah, massive Mycroft fan), that I didn't know (I had read mainly Baskerville and Study in Scarlett before, and I knew The greek interpreter).

Well, in The Greek interpreter, indeed Sherlock seems very proud and admirative of big brother. Is it the fact to have watched the series, or isn't Bruce PArtington's "brother Mycroft" a little more ironic? Of course, "brother mine" and "brother dear" in the sharp tone, as well as the issue of rivalry between the brothers, is Moftiss's creation, but it is given way in Bruce Partington (and by the way, I guess some groups of fans noticed that in the same short story, Mycroft gets to Baker street with "Lestrade on his heels"). 

[Hikari]

JP--

I won't say that the *only* joy for me in watching BBC Sherlock is to identify the increasingly scanty bits Mofftiss sneaked in from the Canon.  That just wouldn't be true, because I enjoy our actors too much.  This entire cast is crackerjack, but it's the duo of Freebatch that makes it all hold together.  And I would be lying if I said that I don't profoundly enjoy what Benedict does for a closely-tailored shirt.  But that would be the opposite end of your pole.  From a purely Holmesian point of view, Conan Doyle wins.  He's been around a lot longer and I think will still be, when BBC Sherlock has passed into the realm of Early Oughts pop-TV ephemera.  I am very surprised that they bailed after four scant seasons and one special.   With the wealth of material they had to work with, had they taken more of a slow burn approach, 'Sherlock' could have gone for ten years.  Should have . . .

Edited February 25, 2018 by Arcadia
Edited for overly personal remarks

[Hikari]

Janyss,

A more ironic Mycroft in BP Plans?  Perhaps.  Irony suits both the Holmes brothers . . but I particularly enjoy when Big Brother puts Little Bro in his place seeing as he *is* 'the smart(er) one.'  Also, the one with the greater range of social adroitness & the better balance of mental health in general.  Sherlie, we love ya, but you can be a bit . . .erratic.  Very upsy-downsie, bipolar and prone to abusing yourself most shockingly at times.  Brother Mycroft is as constant (if married to dull routine) as a planet in its courses.

If I were pressed to name my #1 favorite ACD story, it'd have to be 'The Bruce-Partington Plans'. 

[Janyss]

Sorry Hikari, I meant that the way Sherlock talks about his brother, refering to "brother Mycroft" in front of John, was ironic, not Mycroft himself :). But may be he's a little sharp, too.

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Hikari said:

JP--

I won't say that the *only* joy for me in watching BBC Sherlock is to identify the increasingly scanty bits Mofftiss sneaked in from the Canon.  That just wouldn't be true, because I enjoy our actors too much.  This entire cast is crackerjack, but it's the duo of Freebatch that makes it all hold together.  And I would be lying if I said that I don't profoundly enjoy what Benedict does for a closely-tailored shirt.  But that would be the opposite end of your pole.  From a purely Holmesian point of view, Conan Doyle wins.  He's been around a lot longer and I think will still be, when BBC Sherlock has passed into the realm of Early Oughts pop-TV ephemera.  Turns out that our self-congratulatory duo of allegedly die-hard lifelong Sherlockians just didn't have the stomach to go the distance before getting Bored.  I am very surprised that they bailed after four scant seasons and one special.   With the wealth of material they had to work with, had they taken more of a slow burn approach, 'Sherlock' could have gone for ten years.  Should have . .if not for Moffat's incredibly brief attention span.

Oh, I don't know ... Moffat worked on it for 7-8 years ... that's a pretty long span of time for TV, innit? Anyway, it's my sense that Moffat's the only one who's thinking about coming back. Everyone else is sending "I'm done with it" signals. I find it really strange that BC and MF, in particular, seem to have a gag rule where Sherlock is concerned. I know it's none of my business but I'd sure like to know why ....

[Hikari]

3 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Oh, I don't know ... Moffat worked on it for 7-8 years ... that's a pretty long span of time for TV, innit? Anyway, it's my sense that Moffat's the only one who's thinking about coming back. Everyone else is sending "I'm done with it" signals. I find it really strange that BC and MF, in particular, seem to have a gag rule where Sherlock is concerned. I know it's none of my business but I'd sure like to know why ....

 

Looks like the Pacman Quote box has been fixed?  I'm going to risk it.

Well . . I think my personal feelings about S. Moffat are fairly well-known on this board.  Seems like he may have realized, belatedly, that he was slamming the door on a lucrative cash cow and cultural phenomenon to top even Doctor Who in 'Sherlock', so now he's talking about getting the gang back together, yada, yada.  He has no sympathy from this quarter (me), seeing as it was to a large degree his lack of focus or overextending himself in the first place that led to a premature shuttering of 'Sherlock'.  All along, it seems that he has put more of his energies and time into Doctor Who, to the point of neglecting his writing responsibilities on Sherlock.  No doubt overburdening his writing partner and the rest of the producing team to pick up his slack.  This has been ongoing since S1 when he just could not get it together to finish his extended Study in Pink episode because, guess what,  he was embroiled in Dr. Who.  And yet . . along comes time for the press junket for a new season and there's Steve and his massive ego, front and center. 

Mark Gatiss is, I deduce, the Watson in this partnership.  The more easygoing, tolerant, possibly more personally liked and conciliatory and more adept with the press and etc, of this partnership.  I smell a Sherlockian sense of hubris upon our Mr. Moffat.  Can't be that easy of a writing partner, I'm guessing.

As far as actors go . .they are wired up to be always hungry, always seeking the next job, the next Big Thing for their careers.  No matter how special or meaty or fantastic a role, to them on some level, it is Just Another Job.  They will have another, or several, not only in the course o their careers but in the next year.  So I don't think they get attached to certain characters the same way their viewing public does.  It does seem unfathomable to us that anyone would just waltz away from such a job, but there we are.

[Arcadia]

Yep, I'm well aware of the simmering animosity many people exhibit towards Mr. Moffat. I always figure it's a lucky thing that he is, apparently, a better sport than I am ... if I were subjected to the abuse he is, I would take all my toys and go home, and there would have been no more Sherlock after the first season.  

[J.P.]

This!
I bet being fed up with the "fandom" crap thrown at them was a big factor in the decision.

Money is not everything. And it's not that Mofftiss were starving before they made Sherlock.

[HerlockSholmes]

3 hours ago, Hikari said:

Janyss,

A more ironic Mycroft in BP Plans?  Perhaps.  Irony suits both the Holmes brothers . . but I particularly enjoy when Big Brother puts Little Bro in his place seeing as he *is* 'the smart(er) one.'  Also, the one with the greater range of social adroitness & the better balance of mental health in general.  Sherlie, we love ya, but you can be a bit . . .erratic.  Very upsy-downsie, bipolar and prone to abusing yourself most shockingly at times.  Brother Mycroft is as constant (if married to dull routine) as a planet in its courses.

If I were pressed to name my #1 favorite ACD story, it'd have to be 'The Bruce-Partington Plans'. 

I probably couldn’t settle on a favourite Doyle story but The Bruce Partington Plans would always be up there. There’s also a bit of a link to The Private Oife Of Sherlock Holmes too.

[HerlockSholmes]

52 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Yep, I'm well aware of the simmering animosity many people exhibit towards Mr. Moffat. I always figure it's a lucky thing that he is, apparently, a better sport than I am ... if I were subjected to the abuse he is, I would take all my toys and go home, and there would have been no more Sherlock after the first season.  

Hi Arcadia,

I’m learning stuff here. I didn’t know that there was animosity toward Moffat . What’s that about?

[Arcadia]

6 minutes ago, HerlockSholmes said:

Hi Arcadia,

I’m learning stuff here. I didn’t know that there was animosity toward Moffat . What’s that about?

Okay, first of all, I have to say this is all strictly IMHO. And I'm not even sure I know the full extent of it; I get the impression some people bore him ill will from his stint on Dr. Who even before Sherlock was a gleam in his eye. But he's been accused of being misogynistic, a liar, lazy, egotistical ... it pretty much runs the gamut.

I have to admit that he does often have an unfortunate way of expressing himself in terms, which, when read in print, seem to merit all those accusations. But I quickly found out that if you can find a video of him saying those same words, he usually comes across as humorous, self-effacing and/or charming. His off-the-cuff humor doesn't translate well to print, apparently. I became rather offended myself a couple of times (I couldn't tell you by what, anymore), but once I tracked down the source material, I felt appeased.

Then there's the "problems" with his scripts; some people Just. Don't. Like. Them. Some people don't like his propensity for killing off beloved characters, others don't like his plot holes, or his casual waving away of narrative obstacles. Some bridle at the way he presents women. Etc. (Even I will admit he's often clumsy with women.) And then there's the whole Johnlock thing that JP was alluding to: some of the fandom convinced themselves that Moffat (and Gatiss) were telling a love story that would end with John and Sherlock in an openly gay relationship ... and the you-know-what hit the fan when they were informed that they were mistaken. Then when the pairing still didn't happen by the end of S4, some wrote to the BBC demanding an apology for what they felt was gay-baiting. Things like that.

Oh, and he's routinely called a liar. That started even before Sherlock, I think, but many people were upset by ... wow. To be honest, I've completely forgotten what had them so upset. Help....

I don't deny that Moffat often opens mouth and inserts foot. But as a creative person myself, I flinch when people fling vitriol at him for not creating what they wanted to see, or for not saying the things they want him to say. I understand it, but I'm not fond of it. And I tend to believe what JP mentions ... that's the main reason there's no more Sherlock; everyone involved got tired of the push back from the more, er, voluble fans. I have no evidence for that, though; I just think that's how I would react in similar circumstances.

Okay, someone else should probably jump in here and answer that question too; you'll get a different slant on it, I'm sure!