Side Effects (aka Collateral Damage) of "Sherlock"

[J.P.]

Wilder was the concierge in Diogenes Club, the one talking to our boys with sign language.

[J.P.]

BTW, don't we think we could move the discussion to a JL thread?

Because I'd like to share that now even listening to Comfortably Numb makes me smile. Even if the lyrics - which I finally cared to look up - is nothing funny.

But about a doctor.

[Arcadia]

We do wander a bit these days.

A doctor? (Replays lyrics in head.) I thought it was about a drug dealer.  

[J.P.]

Mmmm… a kind of mixed message here.

I imagine a moment when an artist, probably a singer, collapses backstage just before his performance. So they call a doctor who shall get him going. The text is a dialogue between the two. But it's only me.

[Arcadia]

'Tis entirely possible. One of the effects of watching Sherlock is that I actually listened to Pink Floyd for the first time in years.

[Arcadia]

4 hours ago, HerlockSholmes said:

You need to watch the movie T.o.b.y, it’s brilliant👍

I've read many reviews that say it's the best Holmes movie ever made. I don't think I agree, but Billy Wilder was never quite to my taste to begin with; I don't really enjoy any of his other films either. TPLOSH was better than most, for me. I liked Stephens' Holmes.

3 hours ago, J.P. said:

BTW, don't we think we could move the discussion to a JL thread?

I was going to say your wish is my command, but the new forum software is still a little quirky, and I'm afraid all those posts will disappear, so I've decided to hold off for now. But JP is quite correct .... if anyone wants to continue the discussion about the assorted conspiracy theories and their fallout, they'd be better suited to either the Johnlock thread, here :

or the "crazy fandom" thread (this one's more generic), here:

And yes, this topic can get a bit negative. So just remember that it's fine to disagree, be perplexed or even outraged, but please avoid personal attacks, particularly on the creators, cast, and other fans. Anyone, actually.  We'll leave that to Twitter and Reddit.

[J.P.]

And Tumblr.

[HerlockSholmes]

I also know (well knew) someone that didn’t really like TPLOSH. It’s all subjective of course. It probably is my favourite alongside the Rathbone/Bruce Hound Of The Baskervilles.

If anyone wants to see a truly mind-numbingly contemptible Holmes movie look no further than the excreble Hounds Of London starring unquestionably the worst Holmes ever Patrick Macnee. I watched it again a few months ago just to see if it was as awful as I remembered it to be. It was☹️

 

[HerlockSholmes]

4 hours ago, J.P. said:

Wilder was the concierge in Diogenes Club, the one talking to our boys with sign language.

I recall the scene J.P. but I couldnt picture the actor so I looked on IMDb and found that his name is Tim Barlow which rung no bells (there was no photograph). So I googled him and up came a picture and I immediately recognised him as he’d played a criminal masquerading as a Russian nobleman man in the Grenada Holmes episode The Resident Patient.

[J.P.]

You are crazy.

And I mean it as a compliment.  

[Arcadia]

And you can bet that the Moftisses were well aware of that too.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

Right, Herlock -- you'd think that their experience on Doctor Who would have told them what fans can be like.

Arcadia, I don't offhand recall any examples, other than TAB's supposed "bubble."  Maybe some more will come to me.

[J.P.]

On 21.2.2018 at 1:18 PM, gerry said:

Are you talking about the obnoxious people on social media that say things on the internet they’d likely never say in person or the obsessive/delusional fans doing writing campaigns or die hard fans that go to the conventions or the general fans watching the show?  You seem to be lumping them all in as fandom that critiicize the show/Moffat but I’m not sure one subset of people is representative of the whole and I’d be very suprised if the writers and producers view it that way.   I think the reason for the show ending is far more likely due to the actors not wanting to do it anymore or the writers thinking there’s no more story to tell than Moffat or Gatiss being so turned off by delusional fans doing writing campaigns or online people personally attacking them.  If that’s why shows end, there would be no show on tv as I’m sure every single show has a similar subset of people.  The writers could easily dismiss any rantings of delusional or obnoxious fans as “get a life”.  I’d imagine they are the easiest subset of fans to dismiss.  It’s the rational criticisms like they aren’t good at writing women that I’m sure would hit the mark because they probably know on some level the criticism is warranted and there’s ample examples in their writing to support the criticism..

Something that seems to confirm this little conspiracy theory of mine.

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-03-16/sherlock-watson-relationship-benedict-cumberbatch-martin-freeman-shipping-bbc/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/martin-freeman-interview-sherlock-isnt-fun-anymore/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

[T.o.b.y]

14 hours ago, J.P. said:

Something that seems to confirm this little conspiracy theory of mine.

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2018-03-16/sherlock-watson-relationship-benedict-cumberbatch-martin-freeman-shipping-bbc/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/martin-freeman-interview-sherlock-isnt-fun-anymore/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw

I could only read the second article (the first site needed registration) but it made me feel sad. And also further cemented my seemingly unique opinion that it's a good thing the show ended and it shouldn't be renewed. 

I am grateful that even though he got tired of doing it, Freeman gave a good, solid performance to the very end and they all left us with a product that is complete and enjoyable. Not many shows manage that. 

I understand that all the demands for a certain ship became obnoxious but I cannot help wondering if the actors and writers had been quite so annoyed if it had been a heterosexual pairing. Maybe it's my "anti-gay" radar being oversensitive after many years of use but I can't help but feel a little uneasy on that head. I cannot imagine BC saying "we're not F***ing lovers" about his character and Molly, for example. Of course, the "Sherlolly" fraction seems less aggressive, so maybe that's why, but still... 

And I do understand how the expectations came about and still think it was the writers' own fault, to a degree. 

[J.P.]

Just ignore all the f-words in Martin's statements. He uses the word a lot.

A heterosexual shipers might be annoying too, but nobody would force an equality agenda on it. Because it went: if you don't support Johnlock you are a homophobe. If you  are gay  and don't write Johnlock into the show, you are a traitor and a disgrace to the community and don't deserve to represent it.

[T.o.b.y]

What shocked me was how openly and carelessly some people just extended the ship to the actors themselves. Not in their own imagination, which would have been no problem I guess but publicly on social media. And that Amanda Abbington got death threats. That was horrible. 

I know actors put themselves out there but I still feel sorry for them when things like that happen. That's just plain wrong. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree with both of you, and suspect that even though the interview was nominally about the TJLC phenomenon, Mr. Freeman is also well aware of the "Freebatchers," to which he has every right to react on a personal basis.  Nobody likes being called something that they most definitely are not, regardless of whether it's OK to be that.  (Back before I was a vegetarian, people used to assume I was one -- no idea why -- and that assumption would bug the heck out of me.)

While the TJLCers claim that anyone who disagrees with them is homophobic (and even if there's a bit if truth to that), I think the main thing people are objecting to is the "entitlement" attitude, something that, as far as I can see, is totally missing from other ships, both gay and straight.  The Sherlolly crowd seems very earnest, but they also seem hopeful or wistful rather than demanding.  Instead of demanding that Moftiss write the show to their specifications, they quietly write their fan fiction.  At this point I should say that I believe most Johnlockers are also content with their fan fiction. It's the ones who've turned it into a political movement that I'm talking about.

[Arcadia]

I also note that Martin was referring to the criticism of the fourth season, and they've always said ... or at least, BC has always said ... that they would only do the show as long as they could keep the quality up. I honestly suspect the Johnlock thing was more annoying, but the critical reaction was more of a deciding factor.

The missing piece in all this, though, is still for me ... if they didn't know until after it came out what the critical reaction would be, then why does it end the way it does? How did they know they should give it a proper ending, instead of a cliffhanger like every other season? Why, when we know they said they had a plan for an S4 AND an S5, do they suddenly claim there are no ideas for an S5? Why does S4 feel to so many of us that they collapsed the ideas for two seasons into one? Etc. etc. These things keep me awake at night, (there's some collateral damage for you  ) and obviously we are entitled, entitled I say, to an answer....

[T.o.b.y]

6 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I also note that Martin was referring to the criticism of the fourth season, and they've always said ... or at least, BC has always said ... that they would only do the show as long as they could keep the quality up. I honestly suspect the Johnlock thing was more annoying, but the critical reaction was more of a deciding factor.

The missing piece in all this, though, is still for me ... if they didn't know until after it came out what the critical reaction would be, then why does it end the way it does? How did they know they should give it a proper ending, instead of a cliffhanger like every other season? Why, when we know they said they had a plan for an S4 AND an S5, do they suddenly claim there are no ideas for an S5? Why does S4 feel to so many of us that they collapsed the ideas for two seasons into one? Etc. etc. These things keep me awake at night, (there's some collateral damage for you  ) and obviously we are entitled, entitled I say, to an answer....

I suspect the answer would be simple and boring. They originally had ideas for two more seasons, then it turned out they could only make one due to conflicting schedules. So they condensed everything into 3 episodes and decided to be kind enough to the fans to provide a proper ending. 

Perhaps everybody involved was getting a bit tired of doing it, too. In which case, it would have been the right decision to stop. 

[J.P.]

And I'm quite sure they knew the reactions from the JL fraction before they even started shooting. Suddenly they had a responsibility (for gay representation in this case) forced on them, something they didn't want. The expectations were too high and too many people thought they have a right to demand their wishes being fulfilled.

I speculate the makers couldn't, or simply didn't want to, carry that load anymore. They had something like a panic attack crossed with being incredibly fed up.

[Boton]

42 minutes ago, J.P. said:

And I'm quite sure they knew the reactions from the JL fraction before they even started shooting. Suddenly they had a responsibility (for gay representation in this case) forced on them, something they didn't want. The expectations were too high and too many people thought they have a right to demand their wishes being fulfilled.

I speculate the makers couldn't, or simply didn't want to, carry that load anymore. They had something like a panic attack crossed with being incredibly fed up.

I agree.  It's one thing to say that you hope a show goes a certain direction, or even that you think it would better serve the audience by carrying a certain message. (And the vast majority of JL shippers almost certainly stop with one of these two positions.)

It is quite another to have a segment of the viewership very vocally telling the creators (whether they be writers, actors, or whoever) that the creators' own interpretation of the show is *wrong.* 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but, even if they created something that could be understood multiple ways, the fact that Moftiss say they did not write Johnlock, and MF says that he and BC didn't act to create Johnlock, must be respected. It's fine for viewers to say, "Great, mate, but you left enough holes that it's open to interpretation, and I like my interpretation better than yours," but it's wrong to say "You must be lying or in denial about your own intentions, and I'm offended if your creations didn't match my interpretation." That has to be exhausting.

[J.P.]

At least at the beginning, they all actually encouraged fanfics and re-interpretations. But always were clear that it's not their version. The stupid thing about JL is that there is a real message behind it and it gave many vulnerable young people hope. You remember that video I linked, full of youngsters explaining why JLCT is important? I cannot believe the makers didn't have any knowledge about this development. If I was in their shoes I would feel really bad for crushing their hopes. Dunno, maybe they should have changed their mind and make those people happy, because they seemed desperately needing it.

[Arcadia]

Eh, then somebody else would have pilloried them for something else.

I have to admit, if it's something simple and boring as Toby says, then I think their smart move would be to come out and say so. It's the silence on the subject that makes it seem like there's something to hide. I'm not saying there is, but that's a really good way to make it seem like there is. Like Trump refusing to release his taxes.  

Ah well. It is what it is. Oooops, but that's controversial too, isn't it?

[J.P.]

They said it many times. But they were called liars. And if you mean the schedule problems - I think it's only part of the problem. They seem just to tired of the whole beep to want the schedule to work.

You know, for them it's not just a show. It's their work. They make a living out of that. They might not be starving artists, but it is still a matter of financial security - because it's needed to maintain a creative freedom. I also can imagine that it can have an impact on Hartswood, which means their employees. It's a huge responsibility lying on the shoulders of two guys who just wanted to have fun with Doyle's original materials.

[Arcadia]

I get all that, I just question whether it's in their best interests to go silent on the subject of their biggest hit. But what do I know, I don't work in show business; if nothing else, this whole tjlc business has shown once again how quickly public opinion can turn on you. Maybe they're all smart to disassociate themselves from it, I don't know. Not much fun for the fans, though. *sigh*