BlackButterfly

The writers and directors have definitely made a decision somewhere and for some reason to include and increase the subtext though , it's perplexing .Why should the idea be written off as ridiculous or a joke ? I think the mention of Larry Grayson by Sherlocks mum a little convenient here.Larry Grayson enraged many gay activist back in the early 80s in the UK there were banners that read - laugh at larry grayson and your laughing at us - the argument being people needed to get past the camp- gay -point- laugh tv representation , and take gay issues and rights seriously...and they were right. He was quite a controversial issue and thanks goodness for progress...the BBC and most of the UK are past that now....but maybe there was a point to mentioning him? If they wanted to make John and Sherlock a couple - they have laid the ground for it - Adler fell for Holmes despite her sexuality and Sherlocks "John you are abnormally attracted to dangerous people...." @ " ..You chose her.." spiel is very apt and obvious with the subtext. So there isn't really any reason why they couldn't .It's probably only a matter of time before somebody inevitably does it. BC seemed to hint at the con about a favorate scene with MF in the Shspesh..so maybe they will do something there and then return to the regular ambiguity for S04. I think it would be hilarious , the show would barely change at all , and the joke would be turned on the attitudes of some of the audience and any outraged homophobes would be rather ironically outed .

Fascinating thread to read -and very long too! The relationship between Sherlock and John has been ambiguous from the start and deliberatly so.I assumed during series 1@ 2 that the innuendo , was a bit of a nod towards the various books and people that had paired Watson and Holmes as a couple over the years and also a bit of a - so what if they are or were - thats all fine thing. Which was of course slightly amusing and righteous. After all in a story - that is about two men who meet and fall In love with each other - in modern times is bound to attract some romantic vibes anyway and the idea of the emotionally child like Sherlock and sexually unaware /unintrested version they gave us in that type of relationship was also amusing . Something changed in series three though , maybe because Sherlock himself became emotionally teenagery and then more mature , but the whole series seemed to be littered with sexual subtext and metaphors and imagery. Some of it wasn't even subtext but quite blatent - "Your eyes gazed at mine ,your lips kissed mine with desire and passion,the passion of a woman.The sparkle in your eye the fire of your lips conquered my heart and I fell in love with you.." - lyrics from Donde Estas Yolanda a song thats about a passionate reunion between lovers .Thats the song they chose for Sherlock and Johns reunion and the songs from the stag night are even more suggestive.Then we have the whole drunken crime scene phallic ornamentation and Sherlocks sexual imagery -a scene which ended by vanishing into Johns mouth . Then we have MF , who acted the scene with - Janine - too jealously the first time , so it had to be cut and redone..with less jealously one asssumes...Not to mention that the airport scene seemed to be ripped from Casablanca or The Bodyguard which are romances.....and many many more innuendos of which this thread barely skims the surface. I thought series three , with the inclusion of Mary and Johns marriage would end the ambiguity on the show once and for all , leaving the shipping? to the fanfictioners, but instead they seem to have added a huge amount of fuel to the fire and I really do wonder why and if it's all actually going anywhere or it's just pure titillation for the people that want to see a romance. Earlier Boton @ others made a point that it must be difficult replicating the victorian male intimate friendship to modern times without any sort of connotation .However consider in 1895 , when at least three of Sherlocks adventures were set , society was ablaze with the scandal of the century and the Oscar Wilde trial and homosexuals were fleeing London en masse.So there was certainly a possibility of Watson and Holmes having such an accusation levelled at them ...and coincidentally doesn't -the adventure of the three students start with - it was in the summer of 95 when Holmes and I, for reasons I won't go into , had retired to one of our cathedral cities- (paraphrased from memory) and now we have the Shspesh - set in 1895. Post series three , things seem not so certain as they once were because they have definitely made choices that have opened the ambiguous door even more , I don't really understand the pov of people that - don't see anything at all . Personally I think the Sherlock team think the romance / bromance speculation is good for business and that they will ambiguously encourage it forever ...and thats entertaining / interesting / amusing /nothing new /and all fine.

There doesn't seem to be a specific subtext thread here.. But does anyone else wonder, of all the colours of the rainbow....why pink ?

I suppose the people ( like me ) that have problems with HLV come over as a bit moany about a programme we are fans of which probably isn't really totally acurate.For myself I could wax lyrical non stop for hours on E01-E08 and every aspect of it .(so much so my gf made me join a forum and banned Sh chatter from the house! ) Such a brilliant , subtle , under stated , clever , witty , and yes ridiculous series that made a good attempt at plausable and, that for once treated the audience like intelligent beings is a rare find ; so I think it's more a mourning the loss of all that in HLV -for far too much in your face implausible spoon fed BS. No doubt the writers think series three was a huge success because of the large amount of controversy and chatter it has created..and don't really care what a small group of people may say on forums , as they see it , we are not the audience - the regular / casual viewer that doesn't think too much on it is. There is a large part of me that finds the whole..oh John hooked up with a psycho serial killer assasin nurse while Sherlock was away..whoopsies.....darkly hilarious! And wouldn't mind at all , if only they get back to Subtly @ Quality @ Clever. Hopefully by S04 end , HLV will all just be hilarious momentary blip on the whole.

@Toby and complex neither good nor bad characters..we already have them in John , Sherlock, Mycroft etc even Mrs Hudson has a dodgy past! So why on earth did they need to go so hard core on Mary, for heavens sake an assassin and then shooting Sherlock for stumbling on the scene..that is not grey thats black. Remember the kind of work assassins do...wiring up and shooting blind old ladies...shooting randomers for shaking hands..and really shooting witnesses...what if a child or a student Intern or maybe a mother of 3 doing some cleaning for extra money had stumbled upon Magnussens murder? They would be dead. Had Mary been in keeping with the canon shooter...maybe a woman at her wits end for some other secret..and had just shot Magnussen and J@S covered it up...that would be all fine and dandy...why is all so incredibly extreme if it's not meant to be more than a bit not good, or just for dramatic - we need to show Sherlock miraculously resurrect - effect.

Well if they follow the Hudders parallel , maybe an arrest and then John is kinda quietly relieved ; but that's likely way too tame and lacks drama queen melodrama and doesn't solve the baby problem. @lol Lady V . I really like the John V Mary have a bit of a ding dong and shoot it out idea.

Moffat described series three recently as....... " The third was good days, me and my pal and my pal’s wife. Those are golden days. The missing element in a lot of Sherlock Holmes adaptations is allowing it to be funny." And described Mary as a sort of Callaghan well meaning w/e in the commentry... Funny .? Sarcasm ? I just dont know .It's all loose ends like a ball of wool after the cats have been at it..but the writers seem to work the way that...HLV /S03 is done..onto the next w/e. SO I really do think we're supposed to take the - thats all fine now -@ Sherlocks the great forgiver redeemer whatever now @ Marys just misunderstood...... @I think it's John that wasn't very mature or a very good friend to Sherlock In S03. @I can't imagine a redemptive storyline or quality for a person that shoots innocent witnesses to their assassinations.

It's been a really long time since HLV @ the Mary w/e , and I still seem to feel uncharacteristically irrational and bewildered about it.I think an awful lot rests on Marys exit. I dread they may attempt to sell a tragic teary redeeming storyline with more bad and unbelievable melodrama just for the sake of it . After rewatching series 1@2 again last month with the BBC 3 and being blown away again by the quality intelligence and depth of Sherlock E01-E08 and remembering how much I love the show I am back to pretending HLV was some kind of abnormal trip that will be hurdled quickly and brilliantly in S04. Pretty much lost faith in Moffat though. Good news being June 01 - half way to ShSpesh...maybe that will give us hope.

Really interesting convo on the fabulous MP scene. The Moriarty scene to me was reminiscent of the futile duality of everything..how by creating something we are also creating its opposite. It's a call back to Moriartys-you need me-without me you are nothing-comments. Consulting criminal creates consulting detective@vice versa. Sherlocks choice is to die and have the nothing...or to live and have the something..and the something of existance is always of the dual good/bad nature. Theres an implication at the start of the series that both John and Sherlock may be having suicidal thoughts and theres the whole big philosophical Q thing that - the only question worth asking is whether to kill yourself or not - but here Sherlock decides to continue but not for himself..it's implied to save John...so maybe the reason he - doesn't have to fear it - ( the pain of feeling one assumes) and the reason he has to continue living and feeling is because anothers pain and life is now more important than his own (which isn't as tragic as it seems because that also brings it own more joyful puzzle solving duality) and when you live for others...self becomes much less of a consideration...as we saw when he shot Magnussen. The wheel turns.. Sorry if you think I fell down a well there......

I think the most telling moment must be shooting Magnussen. We have the canon Holmes comment -that if he had ever loved he would have done the same- when describing a revenge murder and BBC Sherlocks -love is a much more viscious motivator-comment. Also amusingly - does anyone remember the unaired pilots comment on killers wanting to be caught ...." To us it's an arrest to them it's a coming out party"

I think Sherlocks wish to be a pirate is more about his wish to not be confined by rules , but make his own , and non confirming to a society of idiots..and to cause as much mischief@mayhem as possible for the people in charge.Which is also a bit of a rebellion against Mycroft who probably wanted to take over the world , thus making the rules. Sherlocks - always been so resentful - thats probably because Mycroft was -the clever one -and his -always being right -and no doubt pointing out Sherlocks mistakes.....-it was the sofa Sherlock-...would obviously become very annoying over time. I wonder how difficult it was for Mycroft to say ' I don't know ' about Sherlocks heart and how much Mycroft hates that , and if any of the things that have happened have been...Mycrofts experiments to find the answer. As for the comments at Sherlock being a romantic thats rather amusing and so true in the classical swashbuckling adventure style way he lives and look at his unrealistic but romantic -it'll be just like old times -expectations and his ' just the two of us against the world....' remarks to John on his return. Perhaps he should have popped out of a cake.

Something that seems a little odd to me about the eastern europe suicide mission , is that someone wanted to offer/send Sherlock on it before the Magnussen incident , which makes me wonder if that was some kind of attempt to have Sherlock offed/got out of the way from a head at MI6. Prob. Not lady Smallwood who seemed sympathetic and definitely not Mycroft...so the other guy? (Sir Edwin?) .He did come across as some kind of rival to Mycroft...but why might he want Sherlock killed and isn't he the guy Tim Mcinnerny is to replace in the Shsp and S04. Mycroft does seem suspect No1 for the MM message , but I think maybe Irene. She wasn't expected to last six months either and then SH saved her at the last minute, so she owes him one. Also it would be neatish in a..caring can be an advantage closing loop.Sherlock must think he sort of lost because of caring and Mycroft was as always right about the caring lark..but then in a good karmic kinda way...he gets saved because of a former good deed .

I think Sherlocks heart and the metamorphosis into the good man is kind of the main theme and the scientist philosopher brain is central to that. To me they are opposites in a way a bit like John being soldier - and a doctor. Philosophers ask questions..and scientists try to answer them..and when this is done symbiotically it works brilliantly deduction wise , but for Sherlocks emotional and more philosophical development the scientist seems to struggle for answers. Interesting that he describes love as a chemical defect and tests the truth of Irenes claims scientifically. Also his -on the loosing side -claim speaks to me of a past lesson that has been backed up by his own experiences in TGG , TRF and HLV where his emotions for John are used against him.Sherlock seemed to mature rapidly emotionally in series 3 and I think a lot of that was because he was having to deal with his and others emotions in a more philosophical way in order to regain his friendships.I think a lot of Sherlocks struggles are something of an attempt to emulate Mycrofts teaching but unlike Mycroft , Sherlock has been unable to remain detached from sentiment. There was still a lot of Mycrofts 'creature' about Sherlock, and something of 'Dr Frankenstien' about Mycroft until the very end of HLV when Sherlock sort of gives in to sentiment and shoots Magnussen and finally abandons Mycrofts - caring is not an advantage - adage . I think/ hope in S04 we will get the more accepting of sentiment mature Sherlock and a Mycroft that hasn't really abandoned Sherlock for his defect ..as I think they tired to make it look. It's interesting to speculate where they can take Sherlocks character development@heart now as it seemed completed at the end of HLV.Working the case he could be as ruthless as ever -Janine- and yet away from that we saw a lot of his heart and imo -he became the good man . It would be really good if we got the truly great @ astonishing Holmes of Doyles creation at last.

Interesting thread to read with some thoughtful comments. :-) Thinking this might be a pattern - Sherlock lies to John in order to protect him but John ends up hurt and in danger anyway. 'I'll get the milk' -sneak off to meet Moriarty-John gets kidnapped..etc 'It's my note....' - fake death to deal with Moriarty -Johns grief @vulnerable@meets Mary..etc '...undercover ..eastern Europe..you can trust Mary- Sherlock lied and Johns going to be hurt and in danger in S04. Or has Sherlock learnt his lieing to John is 'not good ' lesson.

This is the final problem debate now really. We don't live in an ideal world , evil exists ( Moriarty Magnussen Mary ) , and for evil to triumph all that is required is for good men ( Sherlock John ) to do nothing. So while the bad guys are out there , good people will have to do bad things to stop them. It's made very clear that Moriarty@ Magnussen etc are untouchable by the law so we need people like SH until the world becomes 'ideal' or god turns up. I don't see that happening anytime soon..... I think the writers are actually making a rather ironic joke , that by shooting Magnussen , Sherlock does something... and becomes not just the great man but also a good one. Altho it's rather sad that in managing to avoid a forced fall from grace/sin via Moriartys suicide plan , Magnussen managed to goad @ bully Sherlock into it. But it does make Sherlock more human..as one of the writers said. HLV is messed up one hopes it won't be the point people look back at and go...thats when Sherlock went down the pan. Ty for clarifying position ST. @YaY decent convo and beer! Cheers!

@STcooper. Your reply is contraty and confusing. Maybe rewatch the smoking convo@christmas .Mycroft - 'they' want to offer you another job -return you to ...'etc and the ending where he is forced to take the job-for MI6. Maybe Check wiki page and the theft act 1968 section21 on blackmail fraud and coercion. Even if he was bluffing...and fooled everyone...guilty. Mary was just the weakest link...had that way failed, likely he would find another , Lestrade , Hudders , Johns job.....whatever. He didn't necessarily need Mary to get at Sherlock. Sherlock was punished...he now has to do more boring jobs for MI6...one assumes.

I suppose it is a tribute to the writing of the show and to this fandom that people can have such differing and interesting opinions on the same show , and air them politely . :-) While I agree Smallwoods suicide does seem a bit wussy? I don't think you can say Magnussen acted lawfully and honestly. Threatening to print stories unless government officials rule the way you want them to on an official enquiry...as is blackmail in general..illegal. So is theatening to murder - telling bad guys where Mary is , who want to kill her.. So was having John drugged kidnapped and almost burnt to death... Several crimes there up to and including conspiracy to murder and those were just a few of the ones we saw happen. As to the stolen laptop issue , as mentioned , its possible and likely there wasn't even any important information on it . It was just the excuse for a search of Appledore where other incriminating evidence may be found . ( like the video of Johns kidnapping.) As mentioned here several times , Magnussen was stupid , even after Marys close attempt and seeing his men disarm John of various weapons , he failed to ensure J@S were unarmed . He wasn't smart at all he was just a bully. I think its likely that Sherlock as a MI6 agent had some kind of licence to kill...so While it is a murder..the legalities are more complex. Looks to me like his boss's at MI6 were prepared to punish him in some kind of...doing unpaid overtime...way...but Mycroft pushed for the E Europe job...which also suggests to me Mycroft had further plans brewing.

It seems obvious to me why a man like Magnussen should not be allowed to continue to gain power over the British government and maybe even worldwide.Can we really consider him harmless considering the havoc he sowed in the lives and deaths of the people we saw affected in HLV. More like Magnussen was temporarily Mycrofts pet shark..that was put down when it threatened to bite him on the ass. As to a moral and intellectual victory , it seems simplistic and medieval to seperate actions into good or bad only. The programme has a clear theme of Sherlock being - on the battlefield -choosing a side - walking with angels - and being a soldier in some kind of war with those that - are on the other side. How does a simplistic moral view of - murder bad - hold in regards to WW2 etc.. In the post Nietzsche -beyond good and evil - modern world , acts have to be judged through their motives and consequences. The writers give us Marys and Sherlocks -what could have been identical acts-as opposing parallels, motive and consequence wise , one unnecessary with small and short sighted selfish gains and one with larger more important and wider reaching selfless gains. Intellectually ( in my pov) Sherlock was aware of what he may have to do (bring the gun ) and prepared to accept the consequences and will almost certainly get away with it because he covered his six. More a draw than being outsmarted , or dead.

Yes. Magnussen wished to make puppets of the British government through gaining information ,further he had already claimed earlier that if it worked here , he would try it in other countries. So obviously Mycroft would be in the urgent business of stopping him by whatever means necessary? Looks to me like Mycroft didn't want Sherlock involved to begin with , but made use of him once his involvement in stopping Magnussen became unavoidable, @If dead isn't defeated idk what is. It's the same kind of rhetoric we get in TRF . The corporations and the media have too much influence and power which is dangerous and thus they become corrupt bullies etc and sometimes we have to fight dirty or make use of a patriotic style ' blunt instrument'.The same can @ probably will be said about Mycroft/government at some point. It's very canon for Sherlock to be very disdainful of the society he lives in and disregard the inadequate rules for his own version of justice. I don't think the Mycroft was ignorant and stupid and Sherlock was uncontrolled and sentimental version fits the characters we have been shown in the previous eight episodes.

@STcooper. Were you in a house with Sherlock and Billy Wiggins and you thought there was something in the punch.....would you drink it? Further the ' secrets ' Magnussen wanted could never have been published in any newspaper , they never are - consider Snowden and Assange and the recently jailed American and others that have attempted to break official secrets acts. Magnussen would have gone directly to jail and lost his newspaper licence. Therefore his motivations in obtaining government secrets were more nefarious and dangerous than mere newspaper fodder and more of a serious threat to Mycroft and the country. Magnussen himself said Mycroft had been ' after him for some time'. Alternatively of course thats too realistic a view for a nonsensical tv drama.

Magnussen didn't really need any evidence in regard to Mary anyway , the threat was to tell people who hated and wanted to kill Mary where she was. Publishing a story in the papers about Mary was never on the cards because Magnussen didn't care at all about Mary the whole thing was about Mycroft and his attempted takeover of the uk government people. It's difficult to believe post SH shooting that Sherlock and Mycroft didn't have plans to cover all contingencies at Appledore as they did for Moriarty on the roof...and all those possible scenarios. I think the smoking convo SH@MH had at christmas was about framing Magnussen or alternatively killing him and playing the get out jail free , here be dragons , Moriarty alive card. Of course it doesn't look like that on the surface , Mycroft cannot be seen or heard colluding in Magnussens murder - no matter how necessary. Just another magic trick where people take their eye off the magician. Either by collusion or coincidence Sherlock and Mycroft have got what they wanted , and as in TRF , they will claim victory.

Billy.- after Sherlock but he won't like it .X Alt. Bea. (Abby Phoebe)

To add to the Mary is Moran theory I have a rather off the wall , amusing , crazy thought. We know the original Holmes occasionally quoted Goethe.We know the writers have used Goethe quotes and themes before in Dr Who etc and we know BBC Sherlock has a bust of Goethe in his bedroom. In Goethes book Elective Affinities two clever people devise a scientific experiment upon the chemistry of love/emotions to see if they can be proved real. In short , fake their deaths and wait to see if their respective partners are drawn together by some kind of chemical attraction/affinity. Sound familiar?

This is very interesting. I also feel Mary - ex assassin in hiding from people who want her dead- marrying John Watson is far too coincidental. Sort of a stupid decision from Mary as a person lieing low as John was ' internet famous' and was likely to become even more so with the inquest / enquiry into Sherlocks death going on. I have a similar idea to the OP , that Mary perhaps worked for Moriarty long ago , and he was one of the people she was hiding from. When she heard he was dead , she wanted to be absolutely sure and so she sought out John Watson thinking he would know for sure and we know John confirmed Moriartys death to her from the airport scene. Thus she allowed herself to become so involved with John..thinking she was safe now. There are also many things linking Magnussen and Moriarty , this may be how Magnussen gained his information on Mary. She does seem rather panicked at the airport by the idea that Moriarty may be alive and the Miss Me message may also be aimed at Mary ..MM.

Mary @baby Watson must and will go as they said at the con....... ’Its not a ‘gang’ show, it’s the Sherlock and John show. It’s about developing their characters and their relationship, and the characters drawn into their orbit.“ —Steven Moffat answering a question about minor characters. Think maybe you misread @ forgot the quote , prob @my bad punctuation.