Irene Adler on "Sherlock"

[Boton]

I loved Ffff---cough.  Cracks me up every time.  A lot of it is the delivery.  Sherlock is just deadpanning his part of it, much in the same tone that he used to say "piss off" in SiP, and then there's that perfect cut to John giving the exam.  I can just hear John delivering the line in its full glory.  

[SherlockedCAMPer]

My thought on showing Irene in SiB (not sure if I posted on here somewhere before) besides the top half like they did in TSOT is that they could have shown the leg(s) above the knees a ways and an open back side above the waist. It would have implied the nothing while still keeping it family friendly for those of us with older kids (obviously the show isn't meant for young kids).

[Tunguska]

I'm glad they did not do that, but I don't really see the problem with kids seeing a naked body. I would think violent murders, betrayal, lethal threat, suicide and mind games could be more disturbing to a child than Irene Adler's naked backside...

[Carol the Dabbler]

I like CAMPer's suggestion, because parents have a right to decide what their kids can watch, and many parents don't like their kids exposed to gratuitous nudity.  (Irene isn't just naked because she's taking a bath or whatever, she's naked in order to shock Sherlock -- and us.)  I myself am hesitant to recommend Sherlock to certain families I know for this very reason -- and I hate to see those kids deprived of seeing a show that they might really enjoy.

 

If Sherlock were actually "that kind of a show," it'd be different.  But other than this episode, it's not.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Of course, the same point could be made regarding the on-screen violence in "Last Vow" and "Study in Pink."  And I think that would also be a good point.

 

[sfmpco]

I like CAMPer's suggestion, because parents have a right to decide what their kids can watch, and many parents don't like their kids exposed to gratuitous nudity.  (Irene isn't just naked because she's taking a bath or whatever, she's naked in order to shock Sherlock -- and us.)  I myself am hesitant to recommend Sherlock to certain families I know for this very reason -- and I hate to see those kids deprived of seeing a show that they might really enjoy.

 

If Sherlock were actually "that kind of a show," it'd be different.  But other than this episode, it's not.

 

I was watching this episode of Sherlock in the airport on my Iphone via Netflix, and I came to the nude scene and shut it off.  Didn't want anyone to think I was watching porn!!

[T.o.b.y]

Oh-h-h-h-h-kay, Toby, take a deep breath. It's the "Irene naked bad" discussion again, and your degenerate European soul just doesn't get it, so don't, I implore you don't, go and write something rude and insensitive.

 

But. (No, shut up. Respect other people's opinions. Just shut up). But! (No!) But! (No!)

 

Oh what the heck. No offense, but why should children look away when Irene is sitting naked in her chair (very cleverly posed, by the way, so that no intimate details are visible), but apparently there's no need for that when people are beaten up and killed on screen? CAMPer, does your son have to close his eyes during the torture scene in The Empty Hearse? Or when Sherlock shoots Magnussen, or when John shoots the cabbie, or when Sherlock steps on the dying cabbie's shoulder and forces Moriarty's name out of him?

 

TV priorities are so weird. It's like the order of sins is

1.) smoking

2.) cursing

3.) sex and nudity

4.) violence

 

That's not exactly how I'd rate these things in real life...

 

Forgive me for being like this. I may be half American, but I grew up elsewhere, and our culture over here is just a bit different, I guess, so I'm bewildered. Come to think of it, though, the most nudity I was ever exposed to was among my American family, so probably I just come from a different culture altogether, period. And I see people naked all the time professionally (no, I am not in Irene's line of work, try again), maybe that is another reason for my attitude.

 

I like Irene. I don't think she's a nice person, let alone a good person, but she cracks me up, and she's interesting, and very alluring. I love her audacity, and I am often drawn to dark, twisted souls like her any way. Also, if she weren't so damn dangerous, horribly expensive and completely fictional, I'd love to date her. If I were free, that is. Which I'm not. Oh well. Good thing she's not real.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Apparently Germans and Americans really do have opposite views on such matters.  What was it Martina said?  Something like:

 

Americans think violence on TV is OK, but heaven forbid there should be any nudity or sex.

Germans think nudity and sex on TV is OK, but heaven forbid there should be any violence.

The rest of Europe just says, "Hey, we're tough -- so bring it all on!"

 

As with any such attitude, it's mostly a matter of how you were brought up, so (as you noted) there isn't much point in trying to convince anyone that they're wrong.

 

I personally don't mind nudity on TV or in movies as long as it's not the "in your face" type, and it's organic to the plot.  But I realize that a lot of the people I know are shocked and offended by it, so I hesitate to recommend Sherlock (and certain other shows & movies) to them.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, and as for cursing on American television, those regulations go back to the 40's or 50's, so what you can say on TV here is quite a pale imitation of how Americans really talk nowadays.  They apparently update the list of banned words every now and then -- I noticed a few (15?) years back that it had apparently become legal to say "crap" on TV, so every show we watched seemed to feel obligated to work that word into their dialog for a while.

 

[T.o.b.y]

For me, it just seems so simple. Sex - pleasant. Violence - unpleasant.

 

That said, however, I am the one around here who has zero problem with Sherlock shooting Magnussen, and who wants our hero to stay single for all eternity... Humans are odd.

 

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I'm kind of picky what my son gets to watch (a lot of that is based on how I was raised and certain negative personality traits that run in the family).  Yes I do allow violence, but it depends on the movie/show.  I like a good action film over a chick flick.  The Kill Bill series is out and anything that would be classified as a slasher flick.  Also what is the point of the violence.  Is it violence for the sake of violence or is there a purpose of good over evil (ie John taking out the cabbie & Sherlock taking out CAM). I'm not into violence for violence sake.  Anything with blatant sex/innuendos is out (doesn't matter the rating).  However, a film based on history that has skin (ie Schindler's List) is not off the list although it might wait till he's older depending on the amount of skin and if I think he can emotionally handle the content (waiting a couplle of years on Schindler's list because of how hard it is).  Our cable was recently updated and yesterday we went through the On Demand of the premium channels we now get.  I told my son which films were off limits because of ratings (many which are action flicks) and which he couldn't watch yet because I needed to check them out first.  Many R rated (TV-MA) films/shows are off limits.  There are exceptions, but only if I have seen them first (ie Shawshank Redemption) and many of those he can only watch with me.

[Carol the Dabbler]

It must be tough raising a kid nowadays.  There are so many choices in just about everything.  You want your kid to get a good start, but simultaneously you want them to learn to make their own decisions.  Just as glad I'm not dealing with that!

 

[Tunguska]

I'm sorry, I did not mean to heat up an old debate! Everyone's inevitably got their own preferences and no-go's in what to show their kids and whichever you choose, any parent raising their kids with Sherlock has to be a great one

[Schlauer Fuchs]

I completely understand why people wouldn't want their children (up to a certain age) to see nudity and especially sex on TV. However, I don't see the problem with Irene's scenes. They're so well made that you can't see any intimate details. So while I stopped watching the Game of Thrones series because of the explicit nudity and sex scenes, I don't regard Sherlock as offensive at all.

 

 

That said, however, I am the one around here who has zero problem with Sherlock shooting Magnussen, and who wants our hero to stay single for all eternity... Humans are odd.

 

I'm the second one, I totally agree in both matters!

[sfmpco]

I didn't have any problem with Irene's nudity.  It was so cleverly done.  Gratuitus, graphic violence is far more offensive to me, and crime shows today really seem to glorify that, so I don't watch them.  Well, I don't have a TV so I don't watch much at all anymore.  Mostly just movies and Sherlock. 

 

I won't look at graphic/slasher/terror/horror movies either.  Just can't stomach them.  Can't hardly stomach some suspense movies anymore either.  But that's just me.  I like things calm and peaceful... so I've really been struggling while writing this once chapter in my book that is the big action thingie with tons of suspense because I don't like to think about those things.

 

And let's be fair... we did get to see a tiny bit of butt crack from Sherlock in the very same episode.

[T.o.b.y]

I'm kind of picky what my son gets to watch (a lot of that is based on how I was raised and certain negative personality traits that run in the family).  Yes I do allow violence, but it depends on the movie/show.  I like a good action film over a chick flick.  The Kill Bill series is out and anything that would be classified as a slasher flick.  Also what is the point of the violence.  Is it violence for the sake of violence or is there a purpose of good over evil (ie John taking out the cabbie & Sherlock taking out CAM). I'm not into violence for violence sake.  Anything with blatant sex/innuendos is out (doesn't matter the rating).  However, a film based on history that has skin (ie Schindler's List) is not off the list although it might wait till he's older depending on the amount of skin and if I think he can emotionally handle the content (waiting a couplle of years on Schindler's list because of how hard it is).  Our cable was recently updated and yesterday we went through the On Demand of the premium channels we now get.  I told my son which films were off limits because of ratings (many which are action flicks) and which he couldn't watch yet because I needed to check them out first.  Many R rated (TV-MA) films/shows are off limits.  There are exceptions, but only if I have seen them first (ie Shawshank Redemption) and many of those he can only watch with me.

 

Well, obviously you know your son best, and you'll know what is likely to upset him and what isn't. Some boys do object pretty strongly to sexy stuff while they think people killing each other is rather fun. My best friend's brother was like that when he was younger. We had to warn him about just kissing scenes, but severed heads - no problem. And I am and always was just the opposite. Know your kid, I guess.

 

I don't think I'd have enjoyed Sherlock at all when I still qualified as a child. Way too scary. Moriarty alone would have given me nightmares. I'd have loved Irene, though. I bet I would have wanted her to "win" in the end and been horribly disappointed and angry at how the plot of A Scandal in Belgravia played out. My feminism didn't become more refined until I was older...

 

God (or somebody, whoever they believe in, I have no clue) bless my wonderful parents. I don't remember anything being forbidden, but I do remember growing up very sheltered and protected. My father passed on his love of books, and he let me read anything he owned - eventually. His shelves were like a vision of my reading future. "This you should try now, and this when you're about twelve, and you won't like this until you're at least fifteen, and don't try that until you're much older..."

 

I guess it's kind of pointless to have more than very general ratings for films etc. Everybody is different. Hurray for any parent who still bothers to take a closer look and spend a few thoughts on what their individual child can stomach and what not.

 

I'm sorry, I did not mean to heat up an old debate! Everyone's inevitably got their own preferences and no-go's in what to show their kids and whichever you choose, any parent raising their kids with Sherlock has to be a great one

 

Oh, don't be! I love having old debates over again! I repeat myself constantly anyway - great excuse!

 

I completely understand why people wouldn't want their children (up to a certain age) to see nudity and especially sex on TV. However, I don't see the problem with Irene's scenes. They're so well made that you can't see any intimate details. So while I stopped watching the Game of Thrones series because of the explicit nudity and sex scenes, I don't regard Sherlock as offensive at all.

 

Lord no, Sherlock is really mild in comparison to a lot of other TV series, especially high-quality ones. Game of Thrones is a good example. It's really well done, but I couldn't stand it after a while, either. Not because of the sexy stuff (I can take a lot of that, I am afraid. Not that I watch porn, but I don't think it'd faze me much. I used to be active in a program that helped out with sex education in schools. Spend a few mornings talking to teenagers about these things and explaining stuff they've been too embarrassed to discuss with anybody else, and you will become pretty desensitized), but because of the obscene levels of violence and torture. I have no problem with blood or people's insides, but I cringe at pain and cruelty, and Game of Thrones is almost all cruelty. To an absolutely obscene degree, and it's getting worse and worse.

 

....

 

Whoa. How did I manage to babble about my own stupid self for ever and ever in a thread about Irene Adler, who is so much more interesting? So sorry.

 

Back to lovely Irene. Isn't it cool how they made her look like a female Sherlock? Similar body type, similar face and hair and style... They look like a matching set together. Beautiful. No wonder I think she's attractive. "Just my type", I guess.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Like how you brought it back to Irene.

[T.o.b.y]

My pleasure!

 

 

Ahhh, just look at her. This shot is like a painting. A Scandal in Belgravia really has a lot of aesthetic value.

[Boton]

For me, it just seems so simple. Sex - pleasant. Violence - unpleasant.

 

That said, however, I am the one around here who has zero problem with Sherlock shooting Magnussen, and who wants our hero to stay single for all eternity... Humans are odd.

 

No, I'm with you.  I'm the one that thinks Sherlock should have shot Magnussen about 45 minutes earlier in the episode, and then we would have had a lot of filler to use up time.  Zero problems with violence like that.  

 

I do respect that some people may feel uncomfortable with the Irene scene or not want to have to broach that conversation with their kids just because they wanted to watch a TV show.  For me, I thought the scene was very tasteful, and we saw less of Irene's naked body than we would have seen had she been filmed in a bikini on the beach.  No problem for me there.

 

I don't like too many swear words on TV, not because I'm shocked or upset by them, but because they kind of sink into my subconscious and then I say them at inopportune moments.  I have no problem with smoking on camera; most of the time, I don't even notice it.

 

But, to each his own.  That's why its good to have a range of opinion.

[T.o.b.y]

For no reason at all I was just thinking that if anything intimate happened between Irene Adler and Sherlock after Karachi, I fervently hope it was incredibly romantic and that none of it ended up on Irene's phone (if she's alive, she'll have a new one. She must. I mean, she was texting the very second before they were going to cut her head off). I hope she liked it. I really, really hope she had one truly lovely night or hour or whatever brief moment with another person where she could love as she wanted and not as she was being paid to do or needed to do to gain an end. I so hope they had something real and tender, whatever it was, something they'll never, ever talk about because their "sociopathic" sides would be ashamed to admit it and that absolutely nobody else, including the audience, will ever know about.

[Boton]

For no reason at all I was just thinking that if anything intimate happened between Irene Adler and Sherlock after Karachi, I fervently hope it was incredibly romantic and that none of it ended up on Irene's phone (if she's alive, she'll have a new one. She must. I mean, she was texting the very second before they were going to cut her head off). I hope she liked it. I really, really hope she had one truly lovely night or hour or whatever brief moment with another person where she could love as she wanted and not as she was being paid to do or needed to do to gain an end. I so hope they had something real and tender, whatever it was, something they'll never, ever talk about because their "sociopathic" sides would be ashamed to admit it and that absolutely nobody else, including the audience, will ever know about.

 

Yes, please.  Exactly that, for both of them.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh heck, I never had a problem with Magnussen being shot either. I just wish they had stuck closer to canon and had Mary or Lady Smallwood do it. But I do understand why they had Sherlock do it.....in canon he's the one who emptied out Milverton's vault and burn all his blackmail material. The bullet had that same effect.

 

 I hope Sherlock and Irene had a little more then just the meeting of the intellectual mind as well.

 

I don't like a whole of blood and guts and gore if that is all the plot is hinged on. It makes for very boring and dull viewing.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm sorry, I did not mean to heat up an old debate!

Hey, that's what Sherlock fans DO! 

 

And let's be fair... we did get to see a tiny bit of butt crack from Sherlock in the very same episode.

I was going to say -- Huh?      Did I miss something? But you're talking about when Mycroft steps on Sherlock's sheet, right?

 

... I do understand why they had Sherlock do it.....in canon he's the one who emptied out Milverton's vault and burn all his blackmail material. The bullet had that same effect.

 

Thank you for that analogy!  Even if Moftiss didn't make the change for that reason, it makes perfect sense.

 

[sittything]

Eh, I'm OK with imagining nothing happened between Irene and Sherlock.  

 

I also am OK with Sherlock being the one to shoot Magnussen, but then I have no background as far as canon goes.  But if it hadn't been him we wouldn't have gotten this moment... 

 

 

I kinda like Sherlock when he's acting and looking a little unhinged.  lol

 

 

[Redbeard]

Holy crap unhinged is right!  He looks like the freakin' Joker in that shot wow.