Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Arcadia]

Or maybe in the end Mofftis really don't care what we accept as a whole......

And most of us wouldn't admire the Camden Garroter either, nor would we be able to shrug off a devastating bullet wound, to ourselves or a loved one. I agree that Moftiss seem to expect us to swallow the bullet-as-surgery/determination-will-bring-you-back-to-life/Mary-is-okay/it's-wonderful-that-John-forgave-her scenario but their writing is obviously open to many interpretations. If not, we wouldn't be arguing about it nine months later!

 

To be honest, I don't worry too much about Moftiss's intentions. Even if they want us to accept the bullet-as-surgery idea, for example, that doesn't mean we can't question it. When something is in the public domain, it belongs legally to its creators but they don't own, and can't dictate, the audience's responses. For example, you might create a character whom you see as noble and restrained, but if some of your readers consider him prim and priggish, you can't say they are wrong. All you can say is that your writing wasn't meant to convey that particular response. Even if your work is as clear and precise as possible, people will read and interpret it according to their own values and their own experience.

Honestly, I think most of us are pretty much on the same page here; we're just having different internal responses to it. I attempted to make a similar point earlier that perhaps bears repeating? To whit, just because we understand something doesn't mean we have to accept it.

 

I don't know or care what Moftiss expect; but I personally feel that I enjoy their creations more if I try to understand their intent. I agree with Slithytove that their writing is open-ended enough to allow for a variety of interpretations. But I really don't believe their intent is to try to persuade us to a particular point of view; if I did, I wouldn't enjoy the show as much. I think it's more likely that they're looking for different colored lights to shine on their hero in order to reveal different aspects of him. We may not like a particular color, but we might understand more about him after seeing him in that light. (Pun intended!)

 

.... Maybe a different morality prevails in Sherlock's world, as some of you have suggested - though I think it is meant to reflect our own, otherwise it wouldn't be entertaining when he goes against our expectations.... ....but we are not obliged to find those things acceptable. We have our own value systems which the writers can't dictate.

I think it's meant to reflect our own world, too. A lot of times it's more flamboyant (Sherlock NEVER has trouble finding a cab!) but the value system is pretty much our own -- cruelty bad, kindness good. That's why we flinch when Sherlock insults Molly. I don't think the writers are trying to persuade us that it's okay to ride roughshod over someone's feelings; rather, they're utilizing our shared value system to illustrate that for a genuis, sometimes Sherlock Holmes can be awfully dense.

 

So when John and Sherlock accept Mary in spite of herself, I don't think we have to "accept" her too; but I do think there's a reasonable expectation that we will try to understand why John and Sherlock do. To respect their point of view, if you will. If we do, we will stay in the story longer, rather than observing it from the outside.

 

Whether we like what we find out is something else. I have, with the help of you all, developed some theories as to why HLV turned out the way it did, and I do have a more -- ah, developed -- view of the character of Sherlock as a result. Which I enjoy, because it gives me more to chew on, more to watch for the next time I see him. The other characters, even John? Not so much. I don't think that's what S3 was about; I don't think that was the writer's intent. If it were, I think it would be clearer what John, Mary, et al are thinking and feeling.

 

Anyway, those are the conclusions I've come to ... so far! They seem to evolve without my meaning them to. But I guess that's how evolution works....

[jesskayding]

 

 

 

 

 

"Is everyone I've ever met a psychopath?" Now, why would John consider Sherlock a psychopath?

 

Sorry, dear. Why would John consider Sherlock a psychopath, hmmm.... this is a man who claims to be his (best) friend, yet who has admittedly tried out chemicals on him, used him for a harrowing horror experiment involving a hitherto unknown and possibly lethal drug in an army research facility and finally jumped off a building in front of his very eyes, watched him cry at his grave, and then returned two years later expecting this last little feat to be treated as a hilarious prank. No, I really cannot fathom where John gets the idea...

I don't know what you're talking about.

 

Well, I did continue to talk about Sherlock's disappearance act, which was the point I was trying to make, clearly not very well. Yes, Sherlock is insane, but there's a huge difference between the absurd things Sherlock does in everyday life, and him pretending to be dead for two years. Equally, there's a long way to go from those everyday absurdities to Mary shooting Sherlock and hiding her past as an assasin. It's "psychopath" on a different level, or with a different meaning.

 

That's what I find interesting about John's statement - that he compares what he has now discovered about Mary to what he knows about Sherlock. I think he is more comparing Sherlock's behavior in connection with his fall and return to Mary's, rather than comparing them in general. But, of course, that's just my interpretation, and I perfectly understand that Sherlock is generally out of his mind, and John could be referring to anything. "Psychopath", though, is a strong word, and I suppose I connect it with someone very bad. Like Moriarty. He's a psychopath. A villain and out of his mind. Sherlock is just a man/hero and out of his mind.

Seriously. "He's nuts" (or rather "he's Sherlock") is probably the only excuse John can up with for Sherlock's behavior, because all other possible reasons would mean having to stop liking him entirely, I am afraid. (Note that "psychopath" in the Sherlock world doesn't mean the same thing as it does in ours, apparently. Sherlock calls himself one when speaking to Molly in The Empty Hearse about her love interests, remember?)

Sherlock calls himself a sociopath in that conversation with Molly, actually.

 

Of course John thinks Sherlock is crazy, but I'm differing again between "crazy" and "psychopath" - hence my above explanation.

 

 

 

Although the saying goes..." Birds of a feather flock together ". So John could be a psychopath himself. Maybe that'll be revealed in season 4.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Or just Sherlock's own unique world view which may be very sane from his own point of view. A lot of people are rational but seem very crazy to the rest of us. Maybe labels like "crazy" and "sociopath" are nothing more then that labels and really don't mean a whole lot. I'm kind of grey about "psychopath" because these people do scare me. But really, no body in Sherlock seem to be that extreme, especially just because CAM used it because believe me, if anyone was a psychopath in Season 3 it was him, hands down. No empathy, no compassion...nothing. When Sherlock used the term "It's the dead-eyed stare" he hit it. Magnussen may be a genius in his own way but soul-wise?  No body home, not even a porch light. Nada.

 

God that man scared me. He still does. I hear his music and I shudder.

[jesskayding]

The writers kept saying he wasn't really a villain. I'm like he has to be one of the creepiest villains of all time! He even beats out Disney villains, like Ursula & Scar!!

[Arcadia]

Although the saying goes..." Birds of a feather flock together ". So John could be a psychopath himself. Maybe that'll be revealed in season 4.

Well, that certainly seems to be what they were trying to tell us in this episode! Ugh. Not enough data yet.....

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I can kind of see why they would say he wasn't a villain....no...he is the ultimate boogie man. The monster under the bed. The strange noises in the closet.....uuuggghhh....goose bumps.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

Yes, it would be a logical assumption that John is afraid that whatever is on the memory stick will indeed make such a black mark on Mary that he cannot see her the same way. It may also be, as you say, why he doesn't really deal with her having shot Sherlock. This would make sense. Of course, there is also the possibility that he has decided that her past is her business, and that if Sherlock can forgive her shooting him, so can John.

 

I think it's simpler than that. I think we're meant to understand it's basically in John's nature to give people second chances. Look how much he's put up with from Sherlock. Up til now this may have seemed an admirable trait but, again, it's suddenly given a dark twist. Suddenly he's one of the "psychopaths."

 

 

There's logic in several interpretations of that forgiveness scene. My personal interpretation is that John is throwing away the memory stick, because he wants to leave her past behind them. He loves her and honestly believes that she is worthy of his love. At the same time, he knows it will hurt if he should find out horrible things about her. He'd rather not know. And he doesn't expect it to become a problem in their future, so...

 

 

[Arcadia]

And he doesn't expect it to become a problem in their future, so...

Oh, John. And I just said Sherlock can be dense... John, John, haven't you learned yet?

[sherlockandjohn]

What do you want to bet he will be represented as more morally complex (aka "dangerous" in Moftiss speak) in S4 than we thought he was? Actually, his very profession contains a paradox; army doctor. Which Moftiss have chosen to represent as "fighting soldier doctor." I'm pretty sure in real life, army doctors are expected to stay behind lines and take care of patients, not go out to the front and create new ones. Nope, I think they're going to try to show more (darker) facets to his character. Freeman has indicated (imo) that he would prefer that. Many actors do.

 

 

 

Hm, thanks for the warning. Yikes! I better prepare myself.

 

Honestly, this whole "Sherlock into darkness" theme is a bit depressing to me. At least when the story focuses on the sadness and drama. Darkness is easier to cope with in episodes like The Great Game and The Reichenbach Fall, where there's more of a balance between light and darkness. Hopefully, series 4 won't be too depressing. Fortunately, I can always go back and watch series 1 and 2 and get in a better mood.

 

 

[jesskayding]

 

Although the saying goes..." Birds of a feather flock together ". So John could be a psychopath himself. Maybe that'll be revealed in season 4.

Well, that certainly seems to be what they were trying to tell us in this episode! Ugh. Not enough data yet.....

I come up with this stuff on my own. I'm not always up to date with whatever Steve and Mark are saying about season 4. Hmmm maybe we're on the same page. Oh no! Maybe the last episode of season 4 will end with John pointing a gun @ Sherlock's head.

[jesskayding]

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it would be a logical assumption that John is afraid that whatever is on the memory stick will indeed make such a black mark on Mary that he cannot see her the same way. It may also be, as you say, why he doesn't really deal with her having shot Sherlock. This would make sense. Of course, there is also the possibility that he has decided that her past is her business, and that if Sherlock can forgive her shooting him, so can John.

 

I think it's simpler than that. I think we're meant to understand it's basically in John's nature to give people second chances. Look how much he's put up with from Sherlock. Up til now this may have seemed an admirable trait but, again, it's suddenly given a dark twist. Suddenly he's one of the "psychopaths."

 

There's logic in several interpretations of that forgiveness scene. My personal interpretation is that John is throwing away the memory stick, because he wants to leave her past behind them. He loves her and honestly believes that she is worthy of his love. At the same time, he knows it will hurt if he should find out horrible things about her. He'd rather not know. And he doesn't expect it to become a problem in their future, so...

 

 

Yeah, SJ, I got you.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

And he doesn't expect it to become a problem in their future, so...

Oh, John. And I just said Sherlock can be dense... John, John, haven't you learned yet?

 

 

Nope, I don't think he has. John can be dense. The coffee that Sherlock so graciously made in order to apologise for his behavior in the pub? Sherlock saying that he's too busy to visit Mrs. Hudson when they hear she's been shot? I thought those were pretty suspicious.

[Arcadia]

I come up with this stuff on my own. I'm not always up to date with whatever Steve and Mark are saying about season 4. Hmmm maybe we're on the same page. Oh no! Maybe the last episode of season 4 will end with John pointing a gun @ Sherlock's head.

 

As Carol might say: SSSSSHHHHHHHHH!!! The Moftisses might hear you!

[T.o.b.y]

Sticking with my penchant for trying to determine what the writer intends, rather than what I think I see, here's my take on some of this ...

 

I don't feel pity for Mary.

I don't pity her either, and I don't think we're meant to. I think we're meant to accept her, and I think we're supposed to admire Sherlock for being willing to sacrifice himself to save her. We don't have to agree with their actions, but I think we are supposed to understand their emotions -- initially hurt, anger, a sense of betrayal, eventually forgiveness and love wins out over all. I'm still amused that Moffat says we shouldn't romanticize Sherlock, then goes and writes the most romantic (in the classic sense) episode yet. By the end Sherlock is both a dragonslayer and a vengeful East Wind.

 

.... you'd have to be a bit of a saint to forgive someone who hurt you so badly.

Exactly. I think we are supposed to believe Sherlock is a bit of a saint; although maybe avenging angel would be a more apt description. Again, he is incredibly romanticized in this episode; fighting his way to life for John, forgiving Mary for John, sacrificing his future for John. But it's all with a dark twist, isn't it? It's all "psychopathic".

 

It's right up my street, whatever it is. I love this odd mixture of die-hard romance (yes, I am a romantic, I can't help it), dry humor, darkness, yet with a basic safety net of "this is fiction and it will all be okay in the end" feeling (unlike Game of Thrones, which is just dark, dark and more dark). And Sherlock isn't tear-jerky. I hate sob stories, and I think they handle the sadness in this series exceptionally well - the romance too. Everything. I might quibble with details, but the overall "feeling" of all episodes is perfect for me.

 

If this is what romanticizing Sherlock Holmes looks like, carry on. (He was plenty romanticized by Doyle, too, anyway...)

 

 

....But John was supposed to be a decent, moral (in the standard sense) man.

What do you want to bet he will be represented as more morally complex (aka "dangerous" in Moftiss speak) in S4 than we thought he was? Actually, his very profession contains a paradox; army doctor. Which Moftiss have chosen to represent as "fighting soldier doctor." I'm pretty sure in real life, army doctors are expected to stay behind lines and take care of patients, not go out to the front and create new ones. Nope, I think they're going to try to show more (darker) facets to his character. Freeman has indicated (imo) that he would prefer that. Many actors do.

 

I never thought of John as the cuddly good guy. Right from the start, I understood him as pretty messed up in his own way. It's just in comparison to (series 1) Sherlock that John seems such a paragon.

 

John says himself that he killed people during the time he was in the army. I still maintain that there isn't so much difference between that kind of "professional" killing and Mary's, and yes, I know that there are good reasons to disagree with me here. But it might explain at least why John isn't as shocked as an "ordinary" person would be to learn that his wife once was an assassin. I think it's her hiding that from him rather than the fact itself that upset him.

 

 

I think it's simpler than that. I think we're meant to understand it's basically in John's nature to give people second chances. Look how much he's put up with from Sherlock. Up til now this may have seemed an admirable trait but, again, it's suddenly given a dark twist. Suddenly he's one of the "psychopaths."

 

Oh, I don't suppose anybody involved with writing this series had my convoluted amateur-psychology theory in mind when they mapped out John's behavior, But I tend to look at this show as if I was watching real people, and when I do so, I just see certain things which probably weren't meant to be there.

 

No, John isn't "one of the psychopaths" suddenly. In my eyes, he's always been that way. It was established as early as A Study in Pink. "Want to see some more?" "Oh god, yes". That is not exactly a "nice, normal" reaction to the prospect of witnessing injuries and violent deaths.

[jesskayding]

Hay what if detective Dimerick? Is behind bringing Sherlock back?

[Arcadia]

T.o.b.y, as always, you make so much sense!

 

Exactly. I think we are supposed to believe Sherlock is a bit of a saint; although maybe avenging angel would be a more apt description. Again, he is incredibly romanticized in this episode; fighting his way to life for John, forgiving Mary for John, sacrificing his future for John. But it's all with a dark twist, isn't it? It's all "psychopathic".

 

It's right up my street, whatever it is. I love this odd mixture of die-hard romance (yes, I am a romantic, I can't help it), dry humor, darkness, yet with a basic safety net of "this is fiction and it will all be okay in the end" feeling (unlike Game of Thrones, which is just dark, dark and more dark). And Sherlock isn't tear-jerky. I hate sob stories, and I think they handle the sadness in this series exceptionally well - the romance too. Everything. I might quibble with details, but the overall "feeling" of all episodes is perfect for me.

 

If this is what romanticizing Sherlock Holmes looks like, carry on. (He was plenty romanticized by Doyle, too, anyway...)

 

Absolutely, I'm with you all the way! Just -- not too dark, okay? Please Moftiss, leave a little of the sweetness for us to coo over, k? And return us to the light at the end, kk?

 

I never thought of John as the cuddly good guy. Right from the start, I understood him as pretty messed up in his own way. It's just in comparison to (series 1) Sherlock that John seems such a paragon.

 

John says himself that he killed people during the time he was in the army. I still maintain that there isn't so much difference between that kind of "professional" killing and Mary's, and yes, I know that there are good reasons to disagree with me here. But it might explain at least why John isn't as shocked as an "ordinary" person would be to learn that his wife once was an assassin. I think it's her hiding that from him rather than the fact itself that upset him.

I see what you mean, although it seemed to me by S2 that any "issues" he had were largely resolved - ? And his issues were more relatable, I'd say. More based in reality, perhaps? Whereas Sherlock is from cloud cuckoo land. By comparison.

[T.o.b.y]

Absolutely, I'm with you all the way! Just -- not too dark, okay? Please Moftiss, leave a little of the sweetness for us to coo over, k? And return us to the light at the end, kk?

 

They always have done so in the past, haven't they. It's always been okay in the end. Sherlock didn't have to blow everybody up at the pool. He survived The Fall, and he came back, and John forgave him, at least enough to make him best man at his wedding. Magnussen died, and the last we knew of Sherlock, his plane had been turned around because England realized she needs him. It's always okay. Sherlock is actually a pretty positive show.

 

Sherlock is from cloud cuckoo land.

 

Yes, he is! No wonder I love him so...

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

John can be dense. The coffee that Sherlock so graciously made in order to apologise for his behavior in the pub? Sherlock saying that he's too busy to visit Mrs. Hudson when they hear she's been shot? I thought those were pretty suspicious.

 

I prefer to think of John as trusting.      Probably a bit too trusting for his own good sometimes, but hardly dense.  Just not paranoid.  Though paranoia could be a useful survival trait, considering the crowd he runs with.

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Hay what if detective Dimerick? Is behind bringing Sherlock back?

 

Dimmock, you mean? The guy from TBB who didn't like Sherlock? I highly doubt that.

[jesskayding]

Yeah. They just brought him out of nowhere in TBB ( really, Lestrade wasn't available ), maybe they'll bring him out of nowhere again, for no apparent reason @ all. I'm just trying to think what would be shocking. I mean he was missing super obvious things in TBB, maybe he was really working for Moriarty after all.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

John can be dense. The coffee that Sherlock so graciously made in order to apologise for his behavior in the pub? Sherlock saying that he's too busy to visit Mrs. Hudson when they hear she's been shot? I thought those were pretty suspicious.

 

I prefer to think of John as trusting.      Probably a bit too trusting for his own good sometimes, but hardly dense.  Just not paranoid.  Though paranoia could be a useful survival trait, considering the crowd he runs with.

 

 

Aw But it isn't trusting when he gets angry because Sherlock won't go to Mrs. Hudson with him... Okay, maybe it's trusting in the sense that he had expected Sherlock to come along.

 

Seriously, though, I'm every bit as dense/naive/trusting as John, so I get it. The 'bomb on the train' scene? I fell for it. Can you believe that?

 

I just thought of something. John rushes home when he hears that Mrs. Hudson has been shot. Why home? She would have been taken to a hospital... Shouldn't he have gotten suspicious already then? But then again, I've watched the episode, what, 16-17 times, and I've only just thought of that...

[Carol the Dabbler]

Maybe the "EMT" (the person who phoned John and said that Mrs. Hudson was dying) also said that she was too badly hurt to be moved, because that'd kill her immediately.  At any rate, we don't know exactly what John was told -- so for all we know they said she'd be at Baker Street at least long enough for him to get there.

 

Maybe they specifically wanted him to go to Baker Street, because they had someone posted there who could let them know when he left, so they'd have a better idea how soon he might be back to Bart's.

 

[Arcadia]

I prefer to think of John as trusting.      Probably a bit too trusting for his own good sometimes, but hardly dense.  Just not paranoid.  Though paranoia could be a useful survival trait, considering the crowd he runs with.

I like that, but then I remember his therapist said he had "trust issues." Although to be honest I am not sure what she is referring to. He mistrusts Mycroft from the moment he sees him, but who doesn't?

[Arcadia]

I just thought of something. John rushes home when he hears that Mrs. Hudson has been shot. Why home? She would have been taken to a hospital... Shouldn't he have gotten suspicious already then? But then again, I've watched the episode, what, 16-17 times, and I've only just thought of that...

I thought of that too, and all I can figure is that John knew he was close by enough to reach her before the EMT's took her away. Once they arrive at a scene it can take them quite awhile to process you. At least 20 minutes, I'd guess.

 

Anyone know how close Bart's is to Baker Street?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

If John caught a cab right away it's a thirteen minute ride. By tube, about twenty minutes. If he had to walk most of the way it could take close to an hour and a half. Google is a marvelous thing!