Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[T.o.b.y]

What I find questionable is that he is drawn to dangerous people. Apart from Sherlock himself - and Mary, if you think it is possible to know subconsciously that someone is dangerous, even though they've never shown you any sign - apart from them, who else? He had a string of dull girlfriends and couldn't bear any of the dangerous people he met such as Irene, Jim or (according to Sherlock's comment in ASiP) Mycroft.

 

Mhm, good point actually. I do find it plausible that John sensed something dangerous about Mary subconsciously, something he could relate to, but shut his eyes to it because he was hoping to move on and adjust to a quiet life himself. But you are right, it is interesting that he seemed to have zero interest in Irene Adler, and that in a man who was chasing skirts quite desperately at the time she showed up, is a bit odd. Maybe she's just not his type.

 

As for the dull girlfriends, I'm afraid they rather prove Sherlock's point than otherwise, since John seemed to find them dull himself and never managed to hold on to one for long. I think he was always hoping to get a "normal life" back, but it never worked, because of his not being suited for that any more. So no wonder he was thrilled with Mary and deeply disappointed when it turned out she was "like that", after all.

 

One big difference between Sherlock and John seems to be that while Sherlock is quite happy to be "extraordinary" and has no yearnings for a normal existence, John would really like to be able to settle down and doesn't relish the idea that he is "Mr Psychopath" (as Magnussen put it) at all. John always has this hilarious reluctance about him when joining Sherlock in an adventure, I think; as if he's trying to figure out why the hell he's following this maniac around and why on earth he likes him, anyway.

 

[Zain]

I suppose the writers wanted to justify why John isn't as horrified by Mary's former profession and actions as a normal person would be. Let's assume ( bearing in mind that it is after all only Sherlock and Mary's opinion, and altero-characterization. We cannot take it as a hard fact!) John truly likes danger, and he feels drawn to whoever provides him with dangeorus situations. It also becomes more believable that he doesn't judge violence as harshly as one might think. So far, we've often seen John as a soldier with strong beliefs about right and wrong, or as Sherlock characterized him in ASiP: "He didn't fire until I was in immediate danger though so strong moral principle." 

In HLV, though, John loses this part of the characterization, and whatever remains of his characterization is also already described by Sherlock in ASiP: "His hands couldn't have shaken at all so clearly he's acclimatized to violence."

To me, it seems as if the writers were stressing how John is used to violence, and how he craves the adrenalin. It's a bit of a characterization re-write. And because the audience had been fed another image of John from the very beginning, they had to overly stress John's "cravings."

 

So I'd say it is a bit of venture into a more sinister version of John than the one they had originally in mind, back in season 1. 

[sherlockandjohn]

I don't see John as 'normal' either, by the way. However, compared to Sherlock he does come off as much more ordinary, and I think that's great. Their dynamic works perfectly that way. It is very amusing listening to their arguments

[Arcadia]

What I find questionable is that he is drawn to dangerous people. Apart from Sherlock himself - and Mary, if you think it is possible to know subconsciously that someone is dangerous, even though they've never shown you any sign - apart from them, who else? He had a string of dull girlfriends and couldn't bear any of the dangerous people he met such as Irene, Jim or (according to Sherlock's comment in ASiP) Mycroft.

Maybe it's not that he couldn't bear them because they were dangerous ... maybe he disliked them because they were nasty to him. All three were very dismissive of John. Sherlock, on the other hand, invited him to come out and play.

 

And maybe the reason John had a "string" of girlfriends is precisely because they were dull! Once he found the exciting one, he stuck with her.

[T.o.b.y]

I suppose the writers wanted to justify why John isn't as horrified by Mary's former profession and actions as a normal person would be. Let's assume ( bearing in mind that it is after all only Sherlock and Mary's opinion, and altero-characterization. We cannot take it as a hard fact!) John truly likes danger, and he feels drawn to whoever provides him with dangeorus situations. It also becomes more believable that he doesn't judge violence as harshly as one might think. So far, we've often seen John as a soldier with strong beliefs about right and wrong, or as Sherlock characterized him in ASiP: "He didn't fire until I was in immediate danger though so strong moral principle." 

In HLV, though, John loses this part of the characterization, and whatever remains of his characterization is also already described by Sherlock in ASiP: "His hands couldn't have shaken at all so clearly he's acclimatized to violence."

To me, it seems as if the writers were stressing how John is used to violence, and how he craves the adrenalin. It's a bit of a characterization re-write. And because the audience had been fed another image of John from the very beginning, they had to overly stress John's "cravings."

 

So I'd say it is a bit of venture into a more sinister version of John than the one they had originally in mind, back in season 1. 

 

Well, Mycroft already said he misses the war, too. And while his well-meaning therapist got nowhere with his limp, it was magically cured by a good chase after a serial killer. There was some groundwork for the adrenaline-junkie concept. As for the strong moral principles, I'm afraid the way they tried to make those show in His Last Vow simply didn't work too well on us. I think John taking Mary back was supposed to be one of those moments where he has a little halo over his head and I'm almost sure whoever wrote that did not foresee that it would be interpreted as a morally wrong action by some and as an insult to the lady by others (well, me, I don't know who else, but I'm just assuming there are some).

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I think John taking Mary back was supposed to be one of those moments where he has a little halo over his head and I'm almost sure whoever wrote that did not foresee that it would be interpreted as a morally wrong action by some and as an insult to the lady by others

 

  I'm sure it's really no surprise to them how it was seen by some viewers and they've made it pretty clear that as far as they are concerned they did it right. And there are any number of fans who agree with them. As T.o.b.y posted above, it's all up to the interpretation and view point of each individual viewer.

[T.o.b.y]

...At the moment, it appears that the writers want us to swallow a large chunk of unbelievable plot...

 

It does, doesn't it... But that's nothing new. Remember The Blind Banker. I never noticed exactly how little sense that plot made until it was kindly pointed out to me around here. Luckily, I am very willing to suspend any amount of disbelief for the sake of what I consider a good story, so I'm not too bothered by that. And when all is said and done, I do consider His Last Vow a very good story. I've thought about this damned episode so much now it's sneaking its way into a favorites corner in my heart right next to The Sign of Three. And A Study in Pink. And The Reichenbach Fall and... damn. Well, nothing will ever top The Great Game for me. Nothing. I think. Lets see what series 4 brings.

 

It's been said here a few times that Mary must have really wanted to kill Sherlock because after it didn't work the first time, she went to find him carrying a gun. I doubt that is any kind of proof she meant to shoot him again, though. If she wanted him dead, she would have fired right away once she (thought she) saw him. She wouldn't even have shown herself to him or spoken with him first. My guess is she brought the gun to threaten him into silence, thinking that once she had proven "or I will shoot you" is not a vain threat with her, he would be cooperative. Okay, maybe she considered killing him as a very last resort if all else failed. I still quiver at the thought that if she had tried, she would have shot John. I get goose bumps when I watch that scene now, knowing it's him she looks at with that weapon in her hand. Oh my god, what if she had decided to pull the trigger. What a nightmare for all three of them. Sherlock at least must have been very sure she wouldn't try to kill him again, or else he would never have made John sit there, would he?

 

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

What a nightmare for all three of them. Sherlock at least must have been very sure she wouldn't try to kill him again, or else he would never have made John sit there, would he?

 

  I think he and or Mycroft must have been digging into her background after she shot him. He had learned a lot about her between the time he took the runner from the hospital and the confrontation in the "Empty House".  He knew by that time of the real still born Mary Morstan. So someone was had been very busy and very fast.

[Arcadia]

Re: "dangerous people" -- I would also note that Moftiss are fond of using words that sound more dramatic than what they actually seem to mean. "Psychopath" is used as if it means "unpleasant". "Dangerous" is used as if it means "exciting." "Asperger's" is used as if it means "odd." "Idiot" is used as if it means "unobservant." (Well, we all do that! :-) It's all for dramatic (or more frequently, humorous) effect, and I rather enjoy it. But it does mean you have to take everything everyone says with a little grain of salt. Or better still, just get into the spirit of the thing.

[T.o.b.y]

I'd rather get into the spirit of the thing... Or rather, am afraid I already have. But Mary truly is a little dangerous, isn't she? So is Sherlock.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Absolutely. The spirit is the heart of the thing and better to be even a little dangerous then angelic, boring and dull.

[Arcadia]

I'd say John is a little dangerous too. He knows how to sprain people.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yup, knowing how to sprain and not break can come in very handy and certainly makes one dangerous.

[Arcadia]

A skill I would very much like to possess sometimes, if truth be known.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Especially when disarming someone.

[Slithytove]

HLV is an odd one, really. I do agree that it's an exciting episode, brilliantly done - the Mind Palace scenes are some of my favourites of the entire three series. Even though I find the writing rather manipulative, I still enjoy watching it. (Daren't tell my family how many times I've really seen it!)

 

But it does seem that they are trying to re-write John's character somewhat, to make it fit the plot. Throughout the series, he has thrown himself into risky situations, but there's been no mention of his liking dangerous people. (I don't agree that he ditched the dull girlfriends because he was waiting for a dangerous - in my opinion, psychopathic - woman to turn up. He chose to go out with these women. He didn't have to pick boring girlfriends. Something about them attracted him. And Mary seemed pleasant and fairly ordinary to start with - even Sherlock believed it - so maybe he just broke up with the dull women because he wasn't ready for a long-term relationship then. Or maybe, as previous episodes suggested, Sherlock's jealousy and selfishness broke them up.). He has to be drawn to risky people, just as he had to ditch his strong moral principles, to make the plot work - to explain his forgiveness of Mary.

 

I don't think Mary necessarily meant to kill Sherlock when she went after him with a gun, but I think she was fully prepared to do so. If she was convinced he would keep his mouth shut, maybe she would have let him live. I doubt it, because no assassin in their right mind would leave a witness ( a highly intelligent, well-connected witness with a fantastic memory and a good reason to hate her!) at large, but it is possible. But she makes it extremely clear that she would do anything to prevent John learning the truth. It was an obvious threat that, if he intended to tell John, she would kill him first.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Sherlock had to be pretty confident that she wouldn't or in no way would he have put John Watson in that chair in the half light. Neither man is stupid, even though they may come off looking pretty naive to some in this episode. But to be fair to Sherlock and John, a dummy in the chair would have made much more sense, as in the canon, "Adventure of the Empty House" if Sherlock believed there was any chance that Mary came ready and determined to shoot him.

 

  He learned something about her that gave him that confidence.

[T.o.b.y]

He must have. But you know (?) how a mind can run with something it sees and I can't entirely keep mine from picturing what it had been like if Mary had fired at John, even though I don't even want to. When I see that episode, I'm relieved over and over again that she doesn't.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh, I do understand. Like Sherlock told Lestrade: You can't kill an idea once it's in made it's home in the mind.

[Zain]

Mh, somehow I really don't see how we can "guess" what's going to happen with "the problem with Mary." But I suppose the writers can't just ignore it, even if they had originally intended to (which I, now, doubt. I've watched the episode more times than I feel comfortable to admit... especially because it doesn't become more endearing to me, no matter how often I look at particular scenes). This is no matter of "paying attention to the fans." Even those in support of Mary's decisions seem to expect some sort of "final say." I cannot imagine the fan response if they skip forward and show Mary with a baby, and then John runs off with Sherlock for an adventure. 90 minutes later, we get a final look at how John comes home, and that's it. I can't see that leading to any good. At this point, and I agree with slithytove's comment from page god-knows-which: Probably the fandom has developed into a direction they didn't anticipate. It's not just the theories "all over the place" like back with TRF. This is... huge. I am not keeping a close eye on a lot of pages, but wherever I stumble across Sherlock fandom discussions, it's the same debate. I really do not think they can let this go. Whether they intended to use Mary for a surprising revelation in season 4 or not.

 

Btw: Anybody interested in having a go at predicting what season 4 will include in detail? I think that'd be fun. Even if it's really embarassing when season 4 gets aired, and ever carefully constructed scenario is proven to be dead wrong.

[Arcadia]

I think it's safe to say, however, that no matter what the revelation is, someone will be disappointed by it ....

[Zain]

All too true.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

How much attention does Moffat and Gatiss really pay to their audience realistically?  I have heard some people make comments that there was a movement in the "Doctor Who" fandom that was focused in getting Moffat removed from the production crew. Really?  And how is that working out for them? Moffat is still writing and working on "Doctor Who" and after 50 years it's still going strong.

 

 Yes, Sherlock is still pretty much in it's infancy. And I have heard that Moffat and Gatiss are pretty savvy in keeping track of what seem to their fandom plot holes and loose threads and pulling it all together at a later date. So Like Arcadia posted, they will give us a solution....like it or not.

[Zain]

As far as I know, they stated multiple times that they write for themselves, and not for the fandom. Which is not arrogant, imo. It's a good approach to keep control of what you are doing, otherwise it's easy to lose yourself in the process of writing. 

On the other hand, I believe they do have a pretty good idea what's going on. TEH contained so many fandom references, it made me grin when later I watched an interview and Moffat denied once more that they keep track of the fandom. I think they probably keep a general overview. Meta, the main discussions. But I suppose fanart/writing is not that high on their list of priorities.

[T.o.b.y]

As far as I know, they stated multiple times that they write for themselves, and not for the fandom.

 

Which, if true, is probably the most reassuring news I've heard since "Moriarty is really dead" (and we saw what that was worth). An author trying to suck up to his audience very rarely produces work I enjoy. I'd much rather they just went ahead with whatever they really like (and, preferably, the rest of the team as well) and had a blast. If the result is anything like series 3, I'll be happy to argue with and about it for time without end. And if it means Moriarty has to be alive, Irene has to come back, Mary and John live happily ever after and are the perfect couple of the neighborhood, Mycroft is behind everything and Sherlock finds a girl-friend, then I'll just have to grit my teeth.

 

As for trying to predict what happens in series 4, lets go do that in the "what would you like to see in series 4 thread", even if what we think will happen and what we want to happen might not be the same. I'll be very happy to play, since nothing can be more embarrassingly wrong than my Reichenbach theories, any way... See ya there!