What would you like to see in series 4?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Absolutely more Lestrade. He was sorely missed in Season Three. I would like to see him with Molly in Season Four. I think they would be good for each other. Though Molly seems to have grown a backbone since Season Two.

[Zain]

I've been watching some fan vids ( god, I really waste a lot of my time on this show. Ridiculous...)

And I finally understand the exact reason why I find the idea of Victor so compelling. Dunno if anybody cares but maybe somebody recognizes that feeling? Because I've read more than once that others feel similiar about the third season.

 

In the past three seasons, we've seen a lot of different characters. It's a narrow set in comparison to other TV shows but there have been plenty of faces. While the show is about Sherlock, positive interaction rarely happens in his presence. Yes, he has got Mrs. Hudson, and Lestrade, and Molly, but I don't think he ever really laughed around them. We never get to see him happy around somebody but John. He's content, yes. But he never appears happy. To me, the most memorable scene is when John and Sherlock return to 221b in ASiP after chasing the cab. I don't think Sherlock ever shares something like this with anybody else.

John, on the other hand, seems happier throughout the series. Then, in season 3, it becomes even more pronounced when he has got Mary.

It's like Sherlock needs John around to be happy, while John is capable of finding that elsewhere. He misses Sherlock, yes, and I am sure he values their friendship. But in this regard, their friendship is not on equal footing. John doesn't need Sherlock as much as Sherlock does need John. It's why John says "Goodbye" instead of "Take me with you because I can't let you go a second time." And that in itself is perfectly okay. It would be stupid to criticize that John is happy. But to me, season three makes a point of showing how Sherlock and John have not the same priorities. 

I suppose that's where the idea behind Victor Trevor gets in. I feel like Sherlock should have at least one true friend before John. Someone that made him laugh, someone that laughed with him. Since season 3, I feel like their friendship is very fragile. Not because Sherlock faked his death, but because it has become evident that John can do without Sherlock. He might not want to, but he could walk away if he wanted to. I don't think Sherlock could.

It makes me feel very sad for Sherlock. He reminds me of a raven looking for breadcrumbs. And the man who enjoyed feeding him has found another afternoon activity. The man might drop by sometimes, but he does no longer feel the inner need to be there every day at the same time. The raven, meanwhile, remains at the same spot. Hoping. Because maybe this day will be the day, the day when the man will drop in once again.

I feel uncomfortable with this. To me, their friendship was beautiful because it was equal, no matter how bossy Sherlock sometimes had been.

 

And I don't think you can repair this. Even if John lost everything else, Sherlock would now be just be "an option", not "the option." I have a hard time seeing how their relationship could be put on an equal footing once again. I feel like Sherlock needs another person that fascinates him, that draws Sherlock's eyes to them whenever there's nothing to focus on. Like the moment when you avert your eyes from the TV screen, just to make sure that the person next to you is alright. Just to check that they are still there. Because you couldn't do without them. I want somebody like this for Sherlock. Someone who looks at him, and someone Sherlock looks at.

 I believe that John and Sherlock's friendship can only get more equal when John realizes that it is inequal. When he sees it from the other side, when he's the third person, the one Sherlock is not looking at for confirmation. 

 

And I believe this has got to happen in season 4. I cannot imagine another season with their friendship in utter ruins. Something has got to make them approach each other once again. It'll never be the same, but I really hate this inequality. 

 

[Caya]

Oh dear that was beautifully put. Seconded, oh so much seconded.

[Arcadia]

Nice, Zain. I hadn't really looked at it that way.

 

I think - maybe - I'd like to see Sherlock realize that he has, and can have, more than one friend at a time. Only one best friend, maybe, but still, other, genuine friends, who can provide things that maybe his best friend can't.

 

On the other hand -- the critic in our local paper knocked this show because he didn't think this version nailed Sherlock's "essential loneliness" the way other versions have. If the "loneliness" is "canon" (I haven't read but one SH story, so I don't know - or frankly, care) then maybe his relationships are going the way they have to go. Certainly a lonely Sherlock would be more poignant. (But can my heart take it??? Why, why, why, am I so invested in this character!!!!!!!!)

[T.o.b.y]

"Essential loneliness" - yes, that's Sherlock Holmes all right. I definitely think of him that way and I love it when they place Sherlock somewhat above and apart from other people. On their side but not one of them - I like that very much. Maybe that is why I am very content with the relationships the way they are in series 3. I wouldn't really want that to change too much - although I certainly wouldn't complain if they sent John back to Baker St. I certainly don't want any more people to befriend Sherlock. He's plenty humanized already.

[Arcadia]

I sort of agree, but oh, I so love to see him laugh.......

[Slithytove]

I think you've put your finger on the problem, Zain. There is a shift in the John/Sherlock relationship and the scenes which make some of us uncomfortable - particularly the John and Mary reconciliation and the airfield farewell - illustrate it. John is still Sherlock's leverage but Sherlock is no longer John's. Even if Mary was out of the picture, would their friendship ever regain the importance for John that it still holds for Sherlock? Not that it isn't still important to John, but is it so fundamental to his happiness?

 

I don't think any of this is canon. Watson always seemed, despite his job and his marriage, to retain the same deep, unquestioning commitment to Holmes. I don't really agree that Holmes was quintessentially lonely, either. If anything, I would say he was more emotionally contained - as a product of the late Victorian era - than modern Sherlock, and that Watson was such a reliable, unswerving source of friendship that he didn't really need anyone else.

 

Sherlock, on the other hand, seems lonely in S3. Maybe it is because we live in an era where emotions are more freely expressed and examined, or maybe we feel now that characters should noticeably evolve, but both men seem different in S3. Sherlock is more vulnerable, John less. Of course, a lot of this is down to the shift in POV from John to Sherlock. We get a glimpse behind Sherlock's armour, and we see a John who is less Sherlock-centred.

 

This isn't necessarily bad, even though it is a move away from ACD's Holmes and Watson relationship which, in my opinion, was at the heart of the original stories. I agree that it would be interesting to restore some of the balance by making John the third wheel in a relationship, for a change. Sherlock is clearly jealous of anyone who becomes involved with John, though he swallows his jealousy where Mary is concerned because he prioritises John's happiness. (He really is making progress, isn't he? ). But John also seems jealous when he thinks Sherlock has feelings for Irene or Janine.....

 

Yes, bring in Victor Trevor! Maybe it would restore some equality to the relationship. At the very least, it would give us a hint of Sherlock's past that wasn't just drugs, dead dogs and "we all hated him."

[Arcadia]

Nice discussion, folks. You've all put an angle on it I hadn't really considered before.

 

Loneliness has been one of the themes of the show all along, hasn't it? If you don't want to feel lonely, then don't care about people. (But does that really work?) If you decide to care about people ... well, loneliness comes with the package, doesn't it? Even those with the closest of relationships feel lonely at one time or another. It's one of the things that makes us human.

 

I don't have a clue who Victor Trevor is but now I really want to see him too! But I think Sherlock is doomed to always be somewhere on the outside .... as are Molly and Lestrade. Maybe that's why I'd like it if those three realized they were friends.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Victor Trevor was introduced in the story "The Gloria Scott". Trevor and Holmes are in University together and become good friends when Trevor's dog bites Holmes so badly he is laid up for ten days. Trevor feels so bad about it that he spends a lot of time with Holmes as he convalesces.

 

  I think Holmes is content with his experiments until he meets Watson and learns what a truly close friendship consists of. In the later stories in the canon, after his return, and Watson is now living away from Baker Street, Holmes does seem to hunt Watson out and drag him away from home, hearth, and practice at every opportunity. So yeah, this new lonely does seem to be canon and rightly placed.

[Arcadia]

Was the dog an Irish setter? :-)

 

So what do we think ... will Sherlock try to return to the contentment of isolation? Or continue to risk the perils of friendship? And why do I suddenly feel like I need a hug?

[T.o.b.y]

Nope, the dog was a bull terrier - whatever that is exactly.

 

I'd like to see pretty much what we've had, relationship wise, with a few ups and downs of course, to keep things interesting. I don't really think it would work to have somebody else take "John's place", and I don't think that is needed, either... Well, we'll see what they come up with.

 

What I really want to see is a ripping good case. A really brilliant one, with clever twists and turns and long deductions delivered at breathtaking speed. I can dream up "people things" on my own, but have absolutely no head for puzzles and cases, which is why I am always pleasantly fascinated by Sherlock at work.

 

 

[Zain]

 

 

I'd like to see pretty much what we've had, relationship wise, with a few ups and downs of course, to keep things interesting. I don't really think it would work to have somebody else take "John's place", and I don't think that is needed, either... Well, we'll see what they come up with.

 

What I really want to see is a ripping good case. A really brilliant one, with clever twists and turns and long deductions delivered at breathtaking speed. I can dream up "people things" on my own, but have absolutely no head for puzzles and cases, which is why I am always pleasantly fascinated by Sherlock at work.

 

 

 

Just to make sure because I am not certain: Do you completely abhor the idea that somebody could take John's place, even if it was just for one episode, or more in a "John can't be replaced in the long run" way?

Because I do not want Sherlock to have somebody more important than John, either. But right now, their friendship seems to me very inequal. John is constantly reaping the benefits of what Sherlock sows. And John is not giving Sherlock anything in return besides his continued friendship. Throughout the season, it's always Sherlock who makes concessions, and who gives (which in itself is ironic...). John's the one who takes and takes without any consideration. I don't think that is something he does consciously. But to me, it means that John has to recognize how inequal their friendship has become to return to something both emotionally profit from. To me, the idea behind Victor Trevor is that he could act as an intermediary. As a mirror for John to gain another perspective on the state of Sherlock's and his friendship. How will he ever notice how much they are not what they once have been if he has got no reminder of how they once were before?

It'll never be the same, yes. That's clear. But they are drifting apart so much...

 

I think Slithytove put it quite nicely. There's a shift in their friendship. Sure, most friendships are anything but selfless, but I really liked the series because it depicted this kind of friendship. The one that is very rare, and the one I value a lot. I can't imagine watching another season which shows so much affection between the two characters but which seems hollow when you take in how they act towards each other.

 

It might be canon that Sherlock is doomed to be lonely while John goes away to live a merry life, but it seems very inappropriate after giving us two seasons which show a completely different friendship. One of mutual need, understanding, and acceptance.

Everybody needs someone who puts them first no matter what. If John will never put Sherlock first again, then there are very tragic and unfair seasons to come. I don't think I can stand watching Sherlock put John first at every occasion, just to be forgotten for one month, then visited by John, then again forgotten until Sherlock goes begging for attention once again. Even if it's canon, it seems wrong to me. The times have changed, and the writers have shown different sides of the characters in their adaption. Sherlock is not Sherlock Holmes. He's an AU version of Doyle's Holmes. So why not have him live a different life? I wouldn't feel like they betrayed canon if they allowed both characters some more shared happiness. 

 

Btw (If you are still reading this. I really have to rein in my outbursts of, well, ranting...), I agree on something very strongly with you: We need a good, clever, brilliant case in S4.

[Slithytove]

I don't think anyone would ever take John's place. Sherlock loves him. (You don't have to be a Johnlock shipper to see that!). When Moriarty threatens the people he cares about, the first word out of Sherlock's mouth is "John!" When he returns from exile, he is preoccupied by thoughts of John. He runs into a fire to save him, and throws away his liberty to keep John's family safe. John is clearly the most important person in Sherlock's life.

 

But....maybe it wouldn't hurt if John was reminded of that, occasionally. If S4 had a case involving Victor, it would be interesting to see how the dynamic would shift between the two main characters, just as it altered with the introduction of Mary. Back in ASiP, it is John who seems to be drowning in loneliness, and the friendship with Sherlock rescues him. Now Sherlock is the lonely one. We don't know much about Sherlock's past - maybe Victor could enlighten us? - prior to meeting John, but maybe it was a case of "what you never have, you never miss.". Maybe he wasn't lonely until he had companionship and then lost it (by his own decision to leave, and then coming back to find his friend had moved on.)

 

Or maybe he was lonely before he knew John....We just don't know. If Victor turned up, we might learn a bit more about Sherlock's past, which could be interesting.

[Zain]

 

Or maybe he was lonely before he knew John....We just don't know. If Victor turned up, we might learn a bit more about Sherlock's past, which could be interesting.

 

 

Fully agree. And I am still hoping ( a bit more realistic, maybe?) for some Lestrade background. That could present us with delightful insights into Sherlock's past, too.

Was Sherlock already on drugs when they met for the first time?

How did they meet - did Lestrade take Sherlock to the station, did Sherlock stumble over a crime scene and solve it? Or did they simply run into each other at a street corner one sunny day in August? It's not a very important detail but... I'd love to see a flashback. Which is unlikely to happen because flashbacks can be a pain in the... well. Anyway.

Then there's the matter of how close Sherlock and Lestrade exactly are. We never got anything confirmed or denied. Lestrade hugged Sherlock when he returned. He lets him get away with a lot. He goes after him in Dartmoor. He was at the Christmas party. On the other hand, Sherlock didn't seem personally hurt when Lestrade arrested him in TRF. Lestrade also apparently didn't make a fuss after Sherlock died. He kept his position, so he can't have voiced a lot of criticism. Were they really close, for example did Lestrade help Sherlock with withdrawel? Or did he simply keep an eye on him without getting "his hands dirty"? Of course there are more or less educated guesses to be made but it would be nice to have something final.

[Arcadia]

For what it's worth ... one of my favorite little bits is in The Blind Banker, when Sebastion says "We all hated him," and BC chooses to react with this lovely, soulful, injured expression --- which said all I ever needed to know about Sherlock's time at school. Assuming that is a "genuine" reaction (I'm wary now about what is genuine and what ain't :-( ..... then I would say yeah, he was darned lonely.

[Zain]

Yes, that was good fan work fodder, wasn't it?

I've read some brilliant works that are based on that moment. It seems a bit crazy to state this after playing advocate for letting Sherlock have some happy moments in season 4: I love Sherlock!whump, and a lonely past sure is a major feature in those works.

It just seems like they've overdone it last season...

[Slithytove]

I can bear the idea of Sherlock having led a lonely existence - in fact, I quite like him as a solitary, misunderstood genius......What I don't like is the feeling that John, of all people, is letting him down. I did feel that way after watching HLV.

[Arcadia]

I have a feeling John will do something magnificent in return in the next series. Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, but he's growing as a person too.... and he's due a big moment, I thought he was a bit of a second fiddle in S3.

[parv]

I would like to see more epicness in everything. Plus More than just 3 episodes.... I know there will be 3 only....any way........still worth wait for years. In addition, i would like to see a another explanation of how sherlock survived...... I am sure they would have to do it in order to make moriaty alive...... but the best part is in its unpredictability.......   

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I too would like to see glimpses in the Lestrade/Sherlock relationship during the five years "before John Watson". They are certainly closer in-universe then in canon, though after "the Return" Lestrade can be found at 221b just hanging out and applauding Holmes on a case well done.

 

To me, Season 3 was better played then canon in that John Watson was far more upset and angry, hurt......Mary's assassin persona is a sticking point, but anyway, nothing new there. 

 

  But even though Holmes and Watson did leave each others company, at least in the sense of domicile, their friendship didn't seem to suffer. They were still very close, Holmes threatening at least on evil doer deadly bodily harm for causing Watson even the slight and Watson waxing poetic about how deep their love and respect was for each other.

 

 So, hopefully, we will see John and Sherlock's friendship right itself. Sherlock maturing, realizing that for all the pain he caused and as angry and unbalanced John was, they can still remain just as close if not becoming closer.

 

 But yeah, meeting Victor Trevor and the whole "Gloria Scott" thing might be a very workable updated 21st Century case.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Just to make sure because I am not certain: Do you completely abhor the idea that somebody could take John's place, even if it was just for one episode, or more in a "John can't be replaced in the long run" way?

Because I do not want Sherlock to have somebody more important than John, either. But right now, their friendship seems to me very inequal. John is constantly reaping the benefits of what Sherlock sows. And John is not giving Sherlock anything in return besides his continued friendship. Throughout the season, it's always Sherlock who makes concessions, and who gives (which in itself is ironic...). John's the one who takes and takes without any consideration. I don't think that is something he does consciously. But to me, it means that John has to recognize how inequal their friendship has become to return to something both emotionally profit from. To me, the idea behind Victor Trevor is that he could act as an intermediary. As a mirror for John to gain another perspective on the state of Sherlock's and his friendship. How will he ever notice how much they are not what they once have been if he has got no reminder of how they once were before?

It'll never be the same, yes. That's clear. But they are drifting apart so much...

 

I think Slithytove put it quite nicely. There's a shift in their friendship. Sure, most friendships are anything but selfless, but I really liked the series because it depicted this kind of friendship. The one that is very rare, and the one I value a lot. I can't imagine watching another season which shows so much affection between the two characters but which seems hollow when you take in how they act towards each other.

 

It might be canon that Sherlock is doomed to be lonely while John goes away to live a merry life, but it seems very inappropriate after giving us two seasons which show a completely different friendship. One of mutual need, understanding, and acceptance.

Everybody needs someone who puts them first no matter what. If John will never put Sherlock first again, then there are very tragic and unfair seasons to come. I don't think I can stand watching Sherlock put John first at every occasion, just to be forgotten for one month, then visited by John, then again forgotten until Sherlock goes begging for attention once again. Even if it's canon, it seems wrong to me. The times have changed, and the writers have shown different sides of the characters in their adaption. Sherlock is not Sherlock Holmes. He's an AU version of Doyle's Holmes. So why not have him live a different life? I wouldn't feel like they betrayed canon if they allowed both characters some more shared happiness. 

 

Btw (If you are still reading this. I really have to rein in my outbursts of, well, ranting...), I agree on something very strongly with you: We need a good, clever, brilliant case in S4.

 

 

Don't worry, I read it all - just took me some time to respond. And personally, I don't mind a good rant, I badly need those myself sometimes.

 

Yes, I completely dislike the idea of John being in any way replaced. What I can easily picture, though, is the story of Victor Trevor as a flashback from before the "Watson days", the way it was done in the original. Actually, I'd be quite keen on that, and I have my own little silly ideas on what might have happened to bring that friendship to an end. (One of my pet fancies is that when Holmes says Trevor was "heartbroken" after the death of his father, that was a Victorian euphemism for some psychiatric illness). There is so much potential for darkness in the "Gloria Scott" story... I love it. Like young Holmes leaving the Trevors' household because he felt he was making everybody uncomfortable there.

 

My impression of how the friendship between our two favorite "boys" has developed in series 3 is widely different. I don't see anything really wrong myself, but I do understand what you see. Hm, is that understandable at all?

 

 

[Zain]

 

 

 

Yes, I completely dislike the idea of John being in any way replaced. What I can easily picture, though, is the story of Victor Trevor as a flashback from before the "Watson days", the way it was done in the original. Actually, I'd be quite keen on that, and I have my own little silly ideas on what might have happened to bring that friendship to an end. (One of my pet fancies is that when Holmes says Trevor was "heartbroken" after the death of his father, that was a Victorian euphemism for some psychiatric illness). There is so much potential for darkness in the "Gloria Scott" story... I love it. Like young Holmes leaving the Trevors' household because he felt he was making everybody uncomfortable there.

 

My impression of how the friendship between our two favorite "boys" has developed in series 3 is widely different. I don't see anything really wrong myself, but I do understand what you see. Hm, is that understandable at all?

 

 

 

That's brilliant. Awesome.

 

I wouldn't mind such a dark flashback either. Maybe embedded in a "current case", which then is always interrupted with a new flashback snippet from the Case of the Gloria Scott. There's a lot of potential! Like... it's raining, and they are standing next to a corpse at a crime scene. And near the end, Sherlock suddenly gets quiet. John doesn't understand why Sherlock acts so strange. In the background, Victor walks past the crime scene. Their eyes meet and both recognize each other, but they suddenly avert their eyes. Sherlock then shakes his head and solves the case. He however never finishes his story. When John asks, he leaves the crime scene while shouting "Dull." And it is unclear whether Sherlock means the case or that what happened between him and Victor.

Something like that. Preferably written more professionally.

 

I believe there are quite a lot of stories that have this "Sherlock leaves the household because he makes everybody uncomfortable there" theme. Sometimes even paired with an aggressive Victor who blames Sherlock, which then leads to a fight. I remember an especially dark one where Victor almost chokes Sherlock to death. I think Victor stopped and left with the words "Be glad I love you." I remember that it was a rather disturbing scene.

So yeah, I guess there's quite some potential for darkness. Just as much as there's the promise of another meaningful friendship, be it past or to come.

[T.o.b.y]

That's brilliant. Awesome.

 

Why thank you - it's none of it my own, however, just my admittedly rather dark interpretation of the original story "The Voyage of the Gloria Scott". Read it, if you haven't, it's pretty good! 

 

Here's an extract. What happened earlier is that Holmes made some accurate but damning deductions about Trevor's father that reveal he has a criminal past and later, a blackmailer showed up.

 

 

 

"...The whole incident left a most ugly impression upon my mind,

and I was not sorry next day to leave Donnithorpe behind me, for I felt that my presence must be a source of embarrassment to my friend.

All this occurred during the first month of the long vacation. I went up to my London rooms,

where I spent seven weeks working out a few experiments in organic chemistry. One day, however, when the autumn was far advanced and the vacation drawing to a close, I received a telegram from

my friend imploring me to return to Donnithorpe, and saying that he was in great need of my advice and assistance. Of course I dropped everything and set out for the North once more.

“He met me with the dog-cart at the station, and I saw at a glance that the last two months had been very trying ones for him. He had grown thin and careworn, and had lost the loud, cheery manner for which he had been remarkable."

 

 

 

 

 

[Zain]

I know the gist of it but I have to admit that's one of the stories I haven't read (yet). I am one of those people that groaned whenever there was a Sherlock Holmes adaption. Then I was one day bored, and I gave Sherlock a go (with the shallow reasoning that I wasn't expecting much but at least the main character was good-looking, and it was only 90 minutes...). And it hit me hard. I am still catching up. Have been reading some of the stories. I've wanted to give the Case of the Gloria Scott a go for quite some time. Maybe tomorrow. All this discussion has made me a bit wistful.

 

And I still think your dark interpretation is brilliant. Fueled my imagination. It is true that the setting is rather like a two-edged sword. Trevor is both: An introduction to Holmes' past and youth, someone who knows more about Holmes than even Watson. Then he's also this dark stain. Because had Trevor been an exception to Holmes' preference for solitude, just like Watson? Or had he been a milestone? Had the ugliness of the events made Holmes become more wary, and more closed off? And it was only Watson who managed to worm his way into Holmes' lives?

I wonder how John would deal with someone who knows Sherlock better than him. All the people he had felt jealous of, or at least uncomfortable with (Irene, Janine), they hadn't had more insight than him. I don't think we'll ever get details. Frankly, that'd destroy a lot of Sherlock's charm. We accept him because everybody imagines a different past, and we construct a past based on his actions. But some people must have those insights into his life. Some other people than Mycroft, Mummy, and Daddy (father?). I'd love to see the writers deal with that while NOT revealing too much. 

 

Besides, I want Sherlock to have a staring match with a dog. Maybe after it bit him. I bet that'd be hilarious. 

[Caya]

But Sherlock grew up with Redbeard, so he should know better than stare into the eyes of an angry dog, now should he?

 

Then again, Sherlock arguably grew up with humans as well and that never stopped him from aggravating them .

 

Sidenote: I knew that Diane Duane (whose Spock's World I devoured, and adored, many years ago) was a Sherlock fan, but I didn't realize until today that she felt (to quote) "flummoxed" by S3. You haven't lost your gift with words, Mrs. Duane .