CBS's "Elementary"

[aely]

Moved the two posts on BAMF BBC John and Greg Lestrade to What Would you like to see in Series 3 - more appropriate for them than an Elementary thread.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I've been thinking about a couple of things that happened in Thursday's episode (the one where Sherlock's former drug dealer's daughter is kidnapped). One is an in-universe observation, so I'll put that in a spoiler box. But first there's a real-world thing that's puzzling me.

 

Three times in this episode, someone (one character twice and another once) said "I believe in Sherlock Holmes." Can anyone tell me, was that sentence (or anything similar) ever used in the ACD stories or in a pre-Sherlock movie or tv show? If so, then I guess the Elementary people have a plausible excuse for using it. If not -- huh?

 

Regardless of the answer, they must surely have been aware that it's a common saying among Sherlock fans. Even if it started as a personal in-joke by the writer, or because someone saw it on a T-shirt and thought it was cute -- even then, someone would surely have spotted it as a specifically Sherlock fan thing by the time it was filmed.

 

So why did they use it? All that makes any kind of sense to me is that they're trying to suck up to the Sherlock fans -- like, "hey look, we're cool." If that's the case, it seems awfully ham-handed to me, so it seems likely that I'm overlooking a much more logical motive. But what?

 

OK, the spoiler:

 

 

We didn't hear Sherlock's phone conversation with his father, but it seems almost certain that it really did occur. I'm wondering whether Sherlock happened to mention Joan, in which case his father would presumably have expressed puzzlement that she was still around, leading Sherlock to discover that she lied to him a few weeks ago when she told him that his father had agreed to extend her contract. Does anyone have a different take on this? I suspect that we'll hear more about this next week.

 

[Undead Medic]

I have now merged the two "Elementary" threads as they were developing into parallel discussions on the series.

[chironsgirl]

I have now merged the two "Elementary" threads as they were developing into parallel discussions on the series.

 

You merging devil, you!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I cannot find a quote from the canon that comes close to Dr. John Watson writing "I Believe in Sherlock Holmes". I can all kinds of fanfiction references but that's all. Maybe someone will have better luck, if it's out there.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks for looking, Fox. I'm not real up on the canon, so for all I knew it was a famous quote. Since you didn't find it (and didn't remember it from your earlier reading), it's presumably not -- which is consistent with my suspicion that it's an original Sherlock fan saying. Curiouser and curiouser.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yeah, I felt a kind of winge when Sherlock's ex-drug dealer threw that out. I don't know. I think they are trying very hard to appeal to the BBC fans and for me, it's just not working very well. I watch it hoping to warm to it. So far, not so much.

[chironsgirl]

I read horrific amounts of fic. So I can tell you "I believe in Sherlock Holmes" is EXTREMELY playing up to fanfic people! The Elementary writers must be hyper aware of what's going on in the fan community. In fic, it's a grafitti campaign being carried out by Holmes's Homeless Network, in a retaliation for society's rejection of their freind. The campaign is supported by a legion of former clients , who were helped by Sherlock and watched him in action. It's what forces The Met to start really assessing the whole Brooks/Moriarty problem, and coming to the shocking conclusion that Moriarty was real, and so was Sherlock Holmes.

 

 

AS for his discussion with Dad. Sherlock will hang on to this little bit of info for a while. Something to be sprung out at Joan later in the series, as in " Haha! I knew you couldn't resist working with me! You love the challenge of the chase as much as I do!" sort of thing.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

But it was Dr. John H. Watson who first penned that sentiment in his blog following Sherlock's "Fall" from the roof of St. Bart's.

 

He was my best friend and I'll always believe in him

Fandom picked it up and ran with it, making it a street campaign and the slogans that came afterward, like "Moriarty was Real" and "Stand with John H. Watson".

 

It had to come from somewhere before fandom got hold of it and it was Watson.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yeah, I felt a kind of winge when Sherlock's ex-drug dealer threw that out. ... I think they are trying very hard to appeal to the BBC fans ....

I read horrific amounts of fic. So I can tell you "I believe in Sherlock Holmes" is EXTREMELY playing up to fanfic people!....

Right, trying to appeal to the Sherlock fans, including the Sherlock fanfic people. They were already appealing to quite a few of us simply by having a very watchable show with its own distinctive take on Holmes, and to my mind, that is the proper way to do it. This new borrowed-slogan campaign strikes me as dirty pool.

 

Of course it's not an official slogan -- it hasn't actually been used in Sherlock or in the advertising, it's "just" a fan slogan, so it's not lawsuit fodder. But still, it's not a generic Holmes thing either, it's a very specific reference to "The Reichenbach Fall" and its upcoming sequel.

 

As you've probably noticed, I've been a big supporter of giving Elementary a fair chance (and was, frankly, halfway of the opinion that Moffat was being paranoid), but this development sticks in my craw. If they really want to appeal to the Sherlock fanbase, I would advise them to drop the "I believe in Sherlock Holmes" thing RIGHT NOW, and let Elementary sink or swim on its own merits.

 

 

Agreed!

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

But it was Dr. John H. Watson who first penned that sentiment in his blog following Sherlock's "Fall" from the roof of St. Bart's. ... It had to come from somewhere before fandom got hold of it and it was Watson.

You posted that while I was working on the above. I had forgotten the exact wording of his final blog post, but you're absolutely right -- John Watson said it first, which makes the situation even more ridiculous.

 

This development might conceivably add weight to the BBC's legal position, assuming that John's blog would be considered an official BBC site, but that's really not my concern. What's been bugging me is the sheer gall of the Elementary staff, using a major Sherlock fan theme to promote their own competing show. Now, seeing that the theme actually originated, not within fandom itself, but on John's blog -- and yes, I realize that it's fictitious and so is he -- well, please amend that to sheer unmitigated gall!

[aely]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, or throwing the cat among the pigeons...

 

There is also the possibility that the Elementary person responsible for "I believe in Sherlock Holmes" was not aware of the whole fandom "I believe in Sherlock Holmes" thing or BBC John Watson's blog. Potentially, they could be making a statement about their own version of Holmes - this episode was commissioned after they'd been give the go ahead for a whole season - and they are standing behind him so in effect it becomes the writers/producers saying "we believe in this version of Sherlock Holmes" if you like.

 

Personally, I think that's a bit of a reach, and I am more likely to believe in the unmitigated gall aspect, but it has to be stated as a possibility.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Still it does cause a shudder and face palm.

[Carol the Dabbler]

There is also the possibility that the Elementary person responsible for "I believe in Sherlock Holmes" was not aware of the whole fandom ... thing ... this episode was commissioned after they'd been give the go ahead for a whole season ... so in effect it becomes the writers/producers saying "we believe in this version of Sherlock Holmes"...

Thanks for presenting a possible other side, aely. I like both shows, and wish they would just ignore each other. Surely there's enough room on television for both.

 

As I said before, I can certainly believe that it started out innocently enough. Perhaps it was, as you suggest, a vote of confidence -- or the writer was pulling a prank, or someone had seen it on a T-shirt. What I find harder to believe is that their innocence persisted long enough for the episode to be filmed with those lines intact. It'll be interesting to see whether that was a one-time thing -- or not.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, nobody "believed" in him this week, thank goodness. And our spoiler guesses were pretty accurate (though Sherlock wasn't obnoxious). The last couple of plots have been pretty pedestrian, but they've been using the "extra" time to further the story arc and develop the characters, so that's OK. I would still like to see some razzle-dazzle plots, but not necessarily every week.

[Carol the Dabbler]

You can sign up now for Amazon (US) to notify you when Elementary's first season is available on DVD or on Blu-ray.

 

Likewise Amazon (UK), at least for the DVD.

[Alfie Ol' Chap]

I'm a Miller fan, so take me with a grain of salt, but it's enjoyable if you take it for 3 elements that are among the essential qualities of Sherlock Holmes: 1) the thrill of deduction/induction 2) fantasizing about the intellectual condescension Holmes delivers and 3) the bittersweet relationship of Holmes and Watson.

 

Translation: lower your expectations along with the heaping spoonful of sugar the show amounts to and you'll enjoy it.

[wildwoodflower]

I like Elementary more and more, and it's become something I look forward to rather than it just being a placeholder in my fannish heart until the "real" thing returns.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Likewise!

 

 

I'm a Miller fan....

Oh, good. Could you recommend something Miller's been in that might appeal to those who like Elementary, but wherein his character is sufficiently different from Sherlock as to demonstrate some of his range as an actor? (Please note that I could do without most of Elementary's blood & guts -- glad to see that they're not listed among your "essential qualities"!)

[Alfie Ol' Chap]

Blood and guts aren't an essential quality of a Holmes story for me, to be sure. Nor is it even an essential plot device in Elementary. My wife seems invested in the show Bones which has a high gore quality (at least for the evidence) and usually comes on during the dinner hour. Don't get me wrong, I'm not squeamish, but it's not really something I attribute to Holmes.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree -- [repeating myself] if blood and guts are integral to the story, fine, I can take a reasonable amount. But it's certainly not classic Holmes. Elementary often seems to be going more for sheer shock value than for integrity -- frequent pools of blood (and expensively-clad hookers). So far, I'm enjoying the show in spite of that (and I have the same reaction to the occasional sheer-shock-value scenes in Sherlock). [/repeating myself]

 

So -- were you already a Miller fan before Elementary?

[Alfie Ol' Chap]

Yes, absolutely. I've a been a fan since Hackers. He was great in Transpotting, The Escapist, and The Flying Scotman. He has a decent range, but his acting inflection is a bit extremist. I think a lot of actors do it for "punch" or clarity and it can be done well, but it can result in a loss of finesse. That being said, I think he is capable of subtle emoting in his best performances and that's when he shines. It's one of the reasons why I go back and forth on Elementary because it shines through once in awhile at the good moments, but it's not ever-present.

[aely]

I first noticed Jonny Lee Miller in Frankenstein with Benedict Cumberbatch - I've never seen Trainspotting, Hackers, the Escapist or The Flying Scotsman - but that (and Lucy Liu) was enough to make me look up Elementary. Apparently I have seen some of his work before - he was in a 1982 episode of Doctor Who and in Æon Flux - but I don't remember noticing him!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks! I'd never heard of Miller (other than just literally hearing about him in Frankenstein) before Elementary. But I'd seen Lucy Liu in a couple of things, and liked her very much, so that plus the buzz on this forum made me sufficiently curious to watch the pilot -- which was a very fine piece of plotting, I thought, and well executed.

 

I agree, sometimes Miller comes across with nuances so subtle that I'm never sure whether I might have imagined them. Other times, his performance seems pretty flat, so did I miss those nuances -- or did I merely imagine the others? I kind of like his inflections. Maybe Miller always does that, but since I've never seen him in anything else, to me it's just part of his Sherlockian exactitude.

[itslikelectiveamnesia]

Really, they are worried about "American sensitivities" ? I'm American and I much prefer British TV. Wonder what that says about my sensitivities.

 

hahaha im amercian also and prefer this version over the american. looks like both out sensitivities are off...