CBS's "Elementary"

[Carol the Dabbler]

The Season 1 DVD set was released a few days ago, and Amazon has already lowered the price considerably, from something like $44 down to $28.  Alex and I ordered it as soon as we noticed that.  We weren't able to keep up with the story arc while we were in the UK, so we just stopped watching it in May, and this is our chance to see what happened -- before they hit us with Season 2.

 

[Selena]

They have finally started broadcasting Elementary in my country. Yay!

Now I can finally understand what people are talking about in the debates.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yes, and in this Season's Premiere, Sherlock and Joan head for London, England and even meet up with Lestrade....and I suppose we will meet Sherlock's father and Mycroft. Oh well. It was bound to happen sooner or later.

[Carol the Dabbler]

According to the CBS website, Elementary's season 2 US premiere will be on Thursday, September 26th -- still in the 10 pm (Eastern) "adult" time slot, so apparently we can all look forward to more blood and gore! 

 

This episode was filmed in London, and according to Huffington Post, features "Rhys Ifans as Sherlock Holmes' brother Mycroft, and Sean Pertwee as his former mentor, Gareth Lestrade."  (If the name Pertwee rings a bell with classic-Who fans, Sean is indeed the son of Jon Pertwee.)

 

Question for you canon experts -- did Conan Doyle ever give Inspector Lestrade a first name?  (I'm guessing that he did not, but that he did mention his first initial at some point!)  Also, we've noticed that in the Jeremy Brett series the inspector's surname is pronounced with a long A (LestrAYde), as opposed to Sherlock's broad A (LestrAHde).  Is there any evidence for either in Conan Doyle's stories?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

  Your memory served you well, Carol. Sir Arthur just gave Lestrade a first initial "G".

 

 I have never read anywhere, that I remember, of Sir Arthur giving a pronunciation guide to how to pronounce "Lestrade".

[Carol the Dabbler]

That wasn't my memory, Fox -- just a guess based on "Greg" and "Gareth" both starting with the same letter.

 

OK, if Conan Doyle didn't tell us how to pronounce Lestrade, what about the movies and other tv shows?  Does anyone have a feel for what the most common pronunciation might be?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

   Well, your memory is better then mine I have seen that trailer a couple of times and I didn't get that they said the first name of their version of Lestrade.

 

  According to a essay online written by a G. P. Jelliss, Lestrade has a Cockney pronunciation of Lest-raid.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't know as "Gareth" is in the trailer (which I have not been able to watch yet), I just read the name in that Huffington Post article that I linked to.

 

The pronunciation "lest-raid" is what's used by everyone in the Brett series.  I was a bit surprised by that, since I didn't remember it from when I watched the show on PBS.  I somehow had the idea that it was typically pronounced with an "ah" -- though I suppose it's possible that Sherlock simply made an immediate and indelible impression on me in that regard (as well as others)!

 

[wildwoodflower]

I'm actually looking forward to it. I like Elementary. I like the take on Sherlock JLM has chosen.

 

For me it's not a compettion between the two moderns because the more Sherlocks in the world the better the world is. It's all interpretation and with an iconic character like Sherlock it's wide open to interpretation as much as Hamlet or MacBeth or Lear right?  Part of the fun is seeing what different actors bring to the role. JLM has pulled out the more, um, humanitarian aspects of Holmes (for all that the character is still an asshole and finds people stupid and annoying). That aspect is there in the stories, his being so often on the side of the little guy, the downtrodden, the most vulnerable in society. JLM's Sherlock still likes a challenging puzzle but frets when he thinks his actions might cause a woman to be permanently separated from her child. He wants to be useful. I'm not a shipper, I'm not the kind of fan who can't handle change (I have loved every incarnation of the Doctor that has ever been and will love this new one just as much if not more).

 

But I love love LOVE BBC Sherlock and am jonesing for it to come back to me NOW, So...

 

Room for all. Room for all.

[Carol the Dabbler]

The Season 1 DVD set was released a few days ago, and Amazon has already lowered the price considerably, from something like $44 down to $28.  Alex and I ordered it as soon as we noticed that.  We weren't able to keep up with the story arc while we were in the UK, so we just stopped watching it in May, and this is our chance to see what happened -- before they hit us with Season 2.

 

Got it today!  Watched the pilot tonight.  Even though I remembered huge chunks of the plot from last September, it was still very enjoyable to watch the setup.  Now all we have to do is watch one of the 23 episodes every day, and we'll be all set for the Season 2 premiere on the 26th.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

We watched the entire Season 1 DVD just in time to be ready for the Season 2 premiere episode, but the Season 1 finale puzzled us so much that we're watching it again, and there's one point that we still don't understand.

 

The second time that Sherlock sees the birthmarks on Irene's back, he notices that one of them is missing, and immediately deduces that she is working with Moriarty.  I don't follow.  In what way is it damning to have a birthmark/mole removed?  (He even asks -- none too politely -- if it was precancerous, which seems like a perfectly reasonable reason.)

 

So what did I miss?

 

(By the way, I can see how Sherlock might be suspicious if he thought the now-missing birthmark had been a fake, but that possibility never seems to enter his mind.)

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

After some pondering, Alex thinks that Sherlock found the timeframe suspicious.  He had seen the "Auriga" birthmarks just shortly before Irene was "murdered."  If she was held captive during the entire intervening time, then when did she have the surgery?

 

While I see his point, that doesn't really seem conclusive to me.  Her captors had apparently bought her that expensive, hard-to-find yellow paint.  Why wouldn't they also have seen that she had medical care?

 

[Caya]

Sorry if this is a double post, I really can't remember where I got that YouTube link from.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks for posting that, Martina.  Could you give us a general idea of what it's about (without spoiling any surprises it may contain) -- so that we bandwidth-impaired people can decide whether it's worth downloading?  Thanks!

 

[Caya]

Well, it's a parody video (a well-made one, imho) by an internet comedy group about Sherlock trying to deduce what this show called Elementary is about ("It's House. but without the doctor stuff!").

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sounds cute!  Probably worth a download, then.

 

[Escribblings]

TBF, I couldn't start to compare the 2 as they follow differing ideals.

 

What I will say is I like both. They are both (to me at least) well written and directed.

 

Not sure I like Sherlock's parents in Sherlock, and am still undecided on Mycroft in Elementary (A chef I ask you).  Also wasn't overly keen on Lestrade in Elementary, but find Gregson really good.

 

Joan vs John - Clever twist, was worried it wouldn't work but it seems to.  Also a clever twist from Military Doctor to semi-disgraced surgeon.  And a clever intro as a "sober companion".

 

What I find incredibly hard to believe is the quality of Elementary in general.  As far as American police procedurals go, for me it is one of the best with its writing, acting and direction.  Yet with Sherlock we get 3 episodes a year (with a 2 year gap between series 2 and 3) and in that time CBS can pum out THIRTY-FIVE episodes of Elementary, all on a par with each other!

[Carol the Dabbler]

I must agree with you in general, Escribblings, though I haven't yet seen "The Empty Hearse," so cannot comment on that part.  It looks like your other posts so far are all on the "Empty Hearse" thread (which I am avoiding), so I will take this opportunity to say welcome to Sherlock Forum!    You have some interesting things to say -- glad you found us!

 

[genre]

As a new member of the forum, I am a bit late to this discussion as Elementary is probably half way through it's second season by now. I don't have much to say on this topic, I consider myself a lover of all things SH but I haven't been able to get into this show. I wasn't able to watch it when it first started because I had class that night and even though I was (and I think still am) recording the show, it took me a long time to start watching it. But after watching a handful of episodes I still was not into it and just not interested. 

 

I consider myself relatively flexible when it comes to different interpretations of SH. I LOVE the Ritchie films and I know they can be a bit divisive. But I just can't get behind the way this show is done. I KNOW that in the original canon, SH was a user. But I can't see him as an addict coming out of rehab. I just don't see Sherlock Holmes ever landing himself in rehab. I am not a shipper in any way. But I also have a hard time with Watson being a woman. I like that they have managed to make her a woman without making things romantic between them (so far). But I liked the bromance that was Holmes and Watson. And I do not mean that in that I want or think things were romantic between them because I do not think that's what it was and I do not dream about it being that way. NOT a shipper. I need to put that in my profile or something. LOL 

 

Maybe I'll give it another go someday. But so far, it's one version of SH that I'm not into. 

 

-g 

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah I think the problem with Watson as a woman is that they have to try to keep their relationship platonic, and because they're so conscious about avoiding the romantic angle, the bromance is gone.  Not that a man and woman can't have that kind of relationship, but the show seems to avoid it. 

 

Also, why would an asian woman be named Watson?  

 

The show is good though.  Nowhere near the brilliance of Sherlock, but considering how dull US network procedurals are, this one tends to be well above the norm.  Johnny Lee Miller is great.  

[aely]

Also, why would an asian woman be named Watson? 

 

Why shouldn't an Asian woman be named Watson?  Not everyone has names that reflect their ethnicity.

 

I went to school with quite a few Asian people (specifically those of Chinese origin) who had very mundane and boring English names, but then Liverpool has the oldest Chinese community outside of Asia so it probably wasn't that surprising.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Also, why would an asian woman be named Watson?

 

Joan's mother is Chinese, but her father is -- not.  (This was established in the very first episode when Sherlock sees a photo of her parents.)  So Joan is actually biracial.

[aely]

I forgot about that, Carol. Good point.

[Riddle]

I'm a latecomer to this discussion as I've only just started watching 'Elementary', it was recommended to me because I adore 'Sherlock' and I really have to question the sanity of the person who made that recommendation. Not that it's terrible or anything, for a run of the mill American crime show it's pretty good, but to liken it to 'Sherlock' and suggest that liking one means probably liking the other? No, there's no comparison at all. They are completely different animals. 

 

I'm half way through the first series which is pretty good going for me, normally with these crime shows I watch a couple of episodes then get bored, or maybe watch an occasional one when it happens to fall on my TV and I'm far to comfy to locate the remote control. I'm not sure if my persistence is due to any superior quality of the show compared to the multitude of these things that get pumped out, or because I hear that Rhys Ifans is going to crop up as Mycroft somewhere down the line and I absolutely adore Rhys Ifans (actually, scratch that, I am sure, it's the latter).

 

So, my take on it so far:

 

I could be watching any American crime drama, most likely 'The Mentalist' but with a less annoying lead actor, but really, it could be any: CSI, Numbers, Criminal Minds, Monk etc. Sure, some of these have a different set-up (Not all of them are a main guy and a sidekick) but essentially they are all the same. 'Elementary' is no different. The plots could be from any of these or numerous other shows. It kinda feels like a show that's already been done but is using the Holmes thing to make it seem more than it is.

 

I don't mind a female Watson but that's probably because when I'm watching it I'm not thinking of Holmes and Watson, I'm just watching the latest in a long line of formulaic crime dramas with 2 mis-matched main characters whose differences really compiment each other to get the job done. Now where have I seen that before, oh yeah... Everywhere!

 

Don't read the next bit unless you're well into series 2, I haven't seen it yet but I accidentally read something :/

 

 

I'm not sure if I like a female Moriarty yet as I haven't seen her. This is a spoiler for me as I saw Natalie Dormer listed as both Moriarty and Irene Adler. But I won't spoil it for you guys who also haven't seen it because I'm nice like that.

 

 

Johnny Lee Miller is pretty good, actually he's very good for this kind of thing, but maybe I'm a biased Brit.

 

Lucy Liu is Lucy Liu

 

Aiden Quinn is pretty good, I dunno, he just seems like a cop

 

The other cop is a bit of a non-character so far (which is probably why I can't even remember his name).

 

So all this sounds like I hate it. I actually don't hate it, I quite like a lot of American crime dramas, but only as filler TV. I'll watch them occasionally if I'm in the mood, but they're soon forgotten and I couldn't tell you the plot from the last one I saw. I'm enjoying 'Elementary' for what it is but never feel the need to hit 'pause' while I go make a cup of tea for fear of missing something important / interesting / funny, and I can't see myself watching an episode more than once.

 

So, to compare it to 'Sherlock' is to compare a pot noodle to a lovely Indian curry with pilau rice and naan bread (or insert favourite dinner of choice).

 

For those who keep whining about 'why only 3 episodes?' and 'hurry up with the next series'. I'll say this: This is what you get when you have a bunch of different writers churning out 20+ episodes a year to meet demand. Now you really wouldn't want that to happen with 'Sherlock' would you?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

This is what you get when you have a bunch of different writers churning out 20+ episodes a year to meet demand. Now you really wouldn't want that to happen with 'Sherlock' would you?

 

  Absolutely not and we're hoping that the BBC doesn't either, in the end.