But if Mary isn't really 'Mary Morstan'...

[Boton]

 

 

 

The modern expectation of marriage is also that you try to respect your partner for who they truly are, and be honest with each other. Yet here Mary sold John a big lie about herself, and he still can't accept who she really is, and in a frankly pretty sexist macho way only wants her as Mrs Watson, the way she was "supposed to be", in his eyes. The modern expectation of friendship also does not include faking a sob-heavy suicide call and hurling yourself off a roof in front of your best friend, then showing up two years later acting as if it were all a hilarious joke.

 

The characters on Sherlock don't give a fig about what the world expects. They are all high-functioning something-messed-up. Nobody there behaves the way people "should". Look at how Sherlock treats Molly, yet the number of people who want them to be a romantic couple seems to be daily growing.

 

John might very well feel he can't go out risking his life if he has a little daughter at home, but he'll do so anyway, because he can't help himself. He was a doctor who went to war, he married an assassin on the run from her enemies, and his best friend is Sherlock Holmes. He'd like to adjust to civilian life and be normal, but he'll never fully succeed, and time and again, he'll find himself in some impossible situation with Sherlock and he'll curse him and his own self, but he'll still help him save the day, and feel great about it, and be able to go home and be a nice kind daddy for another few months, instead of becoming an alcoholic like his sister or doing drugs or becoming so depressed he's no use to his family any more at all.

 

Sherlock may even feel he can't drag John along if there's a baby Watson. But sooner or later, Sherlock will get in trouble. And Mycroft will text John. And if John doesn't go looking for him sooner, he will then. Cue adventure.

 

And even if the boys manage to behave like grown-ups and stay out of trouble, Mary's enemies will show up some day, and Miss Watson will be in danger from them. Cue adventure for both Watson parents and the man who vowed to be always there for them.

 

Somehow or other, Sherlock and John will always end up running around dark alleys and getting shot at.

 

As for John as a father, for some reason, even though I don't see him as a nice cuddly person at all in general, I have a hunch he'd be absolutely sweet with his little daughter, and I would like to see him with her once or twice. Just briefly. (Projecting my own life experiences here, of course. I've got a terrific father.)

 

 

 

I'll buy it.  At least that makes me feel a bit better about that potential direction for the show.

 

(I had a terrific father too, and I think he was very sweet with me.  No idea why I don't want to see that replayed in the media, specifically in Sherlock, but I just don't.)

[T.o.b.y]

Thank you for your considerate replies, I agree that Molly is not part of the ACD universe, nor the Reichenbach Fall itself, and as for His Last Vow, I reserve my right to comment, because it borders the aforementioned alternate universe: Sherlock a killer, indeed! My point is, would ANY of the fans of both the series heretofore and the original stories suspend belief so far as to accept Dr Watson as a family man with a wife who is clearly a Mrs Smith, albeit reformed.

 

Yes. I would, and I'm a fan of both, obviously. I don't even think it requires suspension of disbelief, I find it very believable. All sorts of people have kids. All sorts of people who really shouldn't have kids, compared to whom John and Mary would be model parents.

 

Again, I'm not saying this is what I desperately want. Part of me does wish they were headed back to "just the two of us against the rest of the world" and lived at Baker St and so on. If I wrote fan fiction, my happy ending would be the beginning of "The Norwood Builder". All I'm saying is that I find the idea of John staying married to Mary and having a family with her totally believable and not problematic for the concept of the show.

 

 

(I had a terrific father too, and I think he was very sweet with me.  No idea why I don't want to see that replayed in the media, specifically in Sherlock, but I just don't.)

 

It's just a matter of taste... I have a thing for older, tough and rough male characters whose kind side comes out in their role as a father. I don't know why, either. It just is that way.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

 

 

The problem is that they've let Mary get very pregnant, and, thank heavens, women don't die in childbirth like they did in the Victorian era.  So we don't have the readily-available "out" that ACD did.  At the same time, John can't become  a family man for very long because it will so dramatically alter the dynamic of the show, even more so if something happens to Mary but not the child.  

 

Perhaps the child will die from a birth defect, but Mary will still live on.

[sfmpco]

Thank you for your considerate replies, I agree that Molly is not part of the ACD universe, nor the Reichenbach Fall itself, and as for His Last Vow, I reserve my right to comment, because it borders the aforementioned alternate universe: Sherlock a killer, indeed! My point is, would ANY of the fans of both the series heretofore and the original stories suspend belief so far as to accept Dr Watson as a family man with a wife who is clearly a Mrs Smith, albeit reformed. Even Mr and Mrs Smith didn't have bothersome infants or toddlers around JUST because they needed to be able to embark on an adventure on the spur of the moment. Although I am already resigned to whatever the scriptwriters deign to create and I very much fear that there may be a baby, when Sherlock says at the end of HLV "there may be some new players now", still I retain some hope that the old players will be left unencumbered by such burdens to continue their adventures on screen to everybody's delight.

 

Somehow they will resolve Mary's background in S4 although I don't think it will be in the Christmas Special.  

 

I am not one of the ones, however, who is anxious to see Mary leave.  Part of this reasoning is that she adds a nice emotional depth to the series.  Sherlock's rough edges have been somewhat rounded by her, and she's made him grow as a person albeit through a bullet.  Just before the bullet he has been almost lulled into a sense of complete  complacency with her in his life, that she has put herself in the boat with John and Sherlock.  After the bullet Sherlock realizes  he has to take control of that boat as the master and commander - which he clearly does just before he collapses at 2221B.  He was always the leader before she came along, and in S3 he had given her some of the reins, but he firmly took them back in HLV,  He let both John and Mary know who was in charge of their 3-way friendship and how he expected things to be done.  He expected them to sort it out quickly so that they could all get back to business as usual.  That sorting, however, took six months.  Nevertheless, Sherlock was still urging the reconciliation even at the Christmas scene just by having them at his parents' house.  He had a second motive for John, however, but a reconciliation between John and Mary did occur and was continuing to occur even as they saw him off on the airplane.  His last words to Mary?  "That's my girl."  He has long ago forgiven her for the shooting.  That forgiveness had actually started the night he forced her out into the open with John. 

 

John's friendship with Sherlock is so important to Sherlock that Sherlock cannot allow Mary's secret to come between them, and John trusts Sherlock enough to put himself in the position of having to listen to his wife confess a life of lies.  This could have potentially severed John and Sherlock's relationship, but John in complete trust and did exactly what Sherlock asked him to do at Leinster Gardens in preparation for Mary's undoing.  If she had tried to lie to Sherlock, Sherlock would have had nothing more to do with her.  If she had shot the "dummy" (John) - Sherlock likely would have killed her somehow.  Mary confessed, however, and I do think Sherlock understands how much she actually loves him.  Yes, I do believe she genuinely loves him.  I also believe she genuinely loves Sherlock (platonic).  

 

Whatever the ramifications of her past are, I think they will be thoroughly and completely and devastatingly dealt with in S4.  

[Arcadia]

Good discussion!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Good discussion!

 

I 2nd that.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... would ANY of the fans of both the series heretofore and the original stories suspend belief so far as to accept Dr Watson as a family man with a wife who is clearly a Mrs Smith, albeit reformed. Even Mr and Mrs Smith didn't have bothersome infants or toddlers around....

Sorry to intrude, but who are Mr. and Mrs. Smith? (I have a feeling that Google would be no help whatsoever on this!)

 

Perhaps the child will die from a birth defect, but Mary will still live on.

I would hope that they wouldn't establish a pregnancy, let it go right down to the ninth month, and then off the kid. In that case, why have Mary get pregnant in the first place? If they want some sort of a tragedy, surely they could come up with something more meaningful (and less heartless) than that.

 

Somehow they will resolve Mary's background in S4 although I don't think it will be in the Christmas Special.

I have the same expectations, and don't see how they could do it in the Special, since they've already said they'd explain the Moriarty mystery in that episode. (On the other hand, maybe Moriarty and Mary knew each other....?)

 

If she had shot the "dummy" (John) - Sherlock likely would have killed her somehow.

Or -- hopefully he'd thought ahead, and would have stopped her from actually killing John. (Doubt that the Watsons would ever have made up in that case, though!)

 

[Arcadia]

Sorry to intrude, but who are Mr. and Mrs. Smith? (I have a feeling that Google would be no help whatsoever on this!)

I don't know about Google, but Bing landed it on the first try: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0356910/

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh.  Guess I shoulda given Google a chance.  Thanks!

 

[sfmpco]

Ah yes, the Mr & Mrs Smith movie that broke up the marriage of Pitt/Anniston.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sounds like it could be pretty good -- or not.  Has anybody here seen it?

 

[Arcadia]

To be fair, I'd already heard of it.

 

The reviews weren't that kind, as I recall. Not exactly a thoughtful movie. :P

[Arcadia]

Is it grammatically correct to say I "googled" something if I actually use Bing? Or should I say that I "binged?" And are people going to think I'm a lush if I do? :P Things like this have been known to keep me awake at night ... NOT.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Is it grammatically correct to say I "googled" something if I actually use Bing? Or should I say that I "binged?" And are people going to think I'm a lush if I do? :P

 

That reminds me of Aely's comment in the Language Thread:

 

I hoover with my dyson because the place needs to be vacuumed...

[joanneta1]

Sounds like it could be pretty good -- or not. Has anybody here seen it?

It is a funny take on American black ops, it has two young and sparkling stars and I particularly like the sequence in the department store, where they have to fight off their former employers. There is also a scene quite early on where Angelina Jolie (Mrs Smith) actually catches the falling wine bottle due to her conditioned reflexes and then deliberately lets it drop onto the carpet to maintain her cover as the suburban housewife. Reminds me of Mary and the skip code or Mary remembering Morstan's room number.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I keep trying to figure out why anyone would think it odd that Mary would recognize a skip code or remember a room number.  I knew about skip codes (though I couldn't have told you what they were called), and I assure you I've never been any sort of undercover agent or hired assassin.  Mary had been so involved in the wedding plans and John had made such a fuss over Major Sholto's invitation that it's no huge surprise she would have made special note of his room number -- perhaps making sure that he was assigned a particularly nice room.

 

Sherlock seems to think that she could do those things because of her training and experience, but maybe she became an agent in the first place in part because she was just naturally good at such things.  And I'm sure that a lot of people with similar natural talents never become secret agents.

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Right. I really hope Moftiss will stop BS'ing these sorts of things. Even though little bit of BS goes a long way, I mean, look at us -- we're still trying to figure out how Sherlock did it, and some of the theories sound like they were written by complete lunatics! :lol:

[sfmpco]

We know he fell.  We know something broke his fall.  Beyond that...

[Carol the Dabbler]

That's all we know on earth, and all we need to know.  ;)

[sfmpco]

We know he survived.  it is enough.

[Boton]

I keep trying to figure out why anyone would think it odd that Mary would recognize a skip code or remember a room number.  I knew about skip codes (though I couldn't have told you what they were called), and I assure you I've never been any sort of undercover agent or hired assassin.  Mary had been so involved in the wedding plans and John had made such a fuss over Major Sholto's invitation that it's no huge surprise she would have made special note of his room number -- perhaps making sure that he was assigned a particularly nice room.

 

Sherlock seems to think that she could do those things because of her training and experience, but maybe she became an agent in the first place in part because she was just naturally good at such things.  And I'm sure that a lot of people with similar natural talents never become secret agents.

 

I totally agree, especially about the room numbers.  Sholto was one of the key invitees, and it's possible, due to his injuries/personality, that there was a reason to either put him in an accessible room or a room at the end of the hall or something that would make him more comfortable.  He then becomes an "anchor" booking in the whole scheme.  For example, anyone involved with booking the rooms would have known where parents were staying, or important family members, or the like.  They would then remember everyone else in relation to those anchor bookings.  So, Mary had to either be intimately involved with the hotel bookings, or not at all.  If not at all, she would have known no one's room number; if she were intimately involved, all she had to do was remember the anchor bookings and then place everyone else in relation to those anchors in her mind.  Since she herself was probably an anchor booking (as a room in which to get ready, freshen up, etc.), she had every reason to know the rest of the anchors and the entire scheme.  No CIA training required.

 

Or is this just how my mind works?

[Boton]

We know he survived.  it is enough.

 

 

Indeed.  He fell.  He didn't hit the ground.  He lived.  Everything else is just detail.

[sfmpco]

 

We know he survived.  it is enough.

 

 

Indeed.  He fell.  He didn't hit the ground.  He lived.  Everything else is just detail.

 

 

Almost sounds like Sherlock's quote from the pilot:

 

"The brain's what counts.  Everything else is transport."

[Carol the Dabbler]

I keep trying to figure out why anyone would think it odd that Mary would recognize a skip code or remember a room number.  I knew about skip codes (though I couldn't have told you what they were called), and I assure you I've never been any sort of undercover agent or hired assassin.  Mary had been so involved in the wedding plans and John had made such a fuss over Major Sholto's invitation that it's no huge surprise she would have made special note of his room number -- perhaps making sure that he was assigned a particularly nice room.

 

Sherlock seems to think that she could do those things because of her training and experience, but maybe she became an agent in the first place in part because she was just naturally good at such things.  And I'm sure that a lot of people with similar natural talents never become secret agents.

 

I totally agree, especially about the room numbers.  Sholto was one of the key invitees, and it's possible, due to his injuries/personality, that there was a reason to either put him in an accessible room or a room at the end of the hall or something that would make him more comfortable.  He then becomes an "anchor" booking in the whole scheme.  For example, anyone involved with booking the rooms would have known where parents were staying, or important family members, or the like.  They would then remember everyone else in relation to those anchor bookings.  So, Mary had to either be intimately involved with the hotel bookings, or not at all.  If not at all, she would have known no one's room number; if she were intimately involved, all she had to do was remember the anchor bookings and then place everyone else in relation to those anchors in her mind.  Since she herself was probably an anchor booking (as a room in which to get ready, freshen up, etc.), she had every reason to know the rest of the anchors and the entire scheme.  No CIA training required.

 

Or is this just how my mind works?

 

That's just how your mind works.  But you and I got to the same conclusion by different routes, which presumably adds more weight to our mutual opinion than if we were simply parroting one another.

 

[Arcadia]

... I've never been any sort of undercover agent or hired assassin.....

Are you sure? :P