"Get Your Wife Under Control."

[Arcadia]

How do you mean? Do you mean the big smile? (How does he do that, anyway? He has the most amazing face....)

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Nono...in the blog it says that BC changed the reference to high functioning "sociopath"....with no reference to Aspergers until that thing between John and Lestrade in "The Hound".

[Carol the Dabbler]

....I thought he was just providing the answer to Lestrade's fishing for the appropriate word at the time.

 

Yeah, that too.  They did seem to be in general agreement.

 

Oh, wait, I see .... you thought I meant John was making the joke. Ummmmm ..... Carol's interpretation is probably better, in that case. Although I do think John (or really, Martin Freeman) was trying to be funny and serious at the same time. But what I really meant was that Moftiss was making a joke.

 

That is strange, because I've always taken that Greg and John conversation as sincere concern for their friend -- not worried about him exactly, just trying to understand him better.

 

I pretty much agree with Mr. Greenfield. That kind of joke can only go so far. I note there weren't any autism jokes in S3; now if they'd just drop the psychopath/sociopath lines, I could die happy. Preferably after S5 airs, however.

 

Other than the aforementioned Greg and John scene, what autism jokes have they had?  Am I just being dense here?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

That is strange, because I've always taken that Greg and John conversation as sincere concern for their friend -- not worried about him exactly, just trying to understand him better.

 

  That has always been my general take on that scene too.

[Carol the Dabbler]

...in the blog it says that BC changed the reference to high functioning "sociopath"....with no reference to Aspergers until that thing between John and Lestrade in "The Hound".

 

 

I take it you mean this part:

 

Mark Gatiss and Steven Moffat - writers of the BBC series 'Sherlock', a modern retelling of the Holmes stories - have turned this debate into a running joke. Holmes (as played by Benedict Cumberbatch) dismisses the idea by referring to himself, albeit sarcastically, as a high-functioning sociopath instead.

 

That's awkwardly worded, but I don't think the author meant to say Cumberbatch had changed the dialog -- more like Sherlock uses the term "sociopath" to deflect the other labels that people aim at him (like Anderson's "psychopath").

 

[Arcadia]

Yes, hence my confusion. Plus I forgot the Greenfield "article" was, in point of fact, a blog. Hey, it's short, it's in written form, to me it's an article!

 

I'm still not making myself clear, I'm afraid. Whether Lestrade or John were joking is beside the point ... the writers were making the joke. I'll try Mr. Greenfield's words: "there is a general perception - spurred on by modern adaptations, fan debates and charities - that Holmes is one of the most prominent autistic characters on television today." Preceded by: "Mark Gatiss and Steven Moffat ... have turned this debate into a running joke."

 

I actually can't think of any other "autism jokes" either, but I was certainly aware, even before finding this forum, that the autism theories were out there and Moftiss were having fun with it, just as they were having fun with the "Holmes was gay" theories. Probably from something I heard on the DVD extras, as I hadn't yet started obsessively combing the internets for tidbits of Sherlock trivia. (What has become of me!?!??!) Since Sherlock clearly does not have Asperger's, and because I and many other people burst out laughing when John said it: yeah, joke.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I know I have been aware of the label since the likes of Baring-Gould and other early Sherlockian scholars/early fandom seemed to find that a plausible explanation for at least some of Holmes's more eccentric and manic mannerisms and Brett played him that way recognizing some of his oun bi-polar traits in the canonical Holmes.

 

Not sure if I appreciate Mofftiss trying to make a running gag out of it, but to each his own and as long as it's not cruel and Sherlock himself can make light of such a label then it's all fine.

[Arcadia]

I think it's meant affectionately, but humor has a way of backfiring in even the most innocuous circumstances; especially when it's at someone else's expense. I had a couple of college friends (guys) who were making (mild) jokes about rape. For the life of them they couldn't understand why I didn't think they were funny. Go figure. 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yeah, I work with a room full of men...and the things they like to take about and think as funny.....I don't get either. Sometimes I hear John in my head telling them to shut up and grow up.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I used to work with a roomful of men myself, and was appalled by the things they'd say about their wives.  But in all fairness, I've heard women say things just as bad about their husbands -- though of course, what the women say tends to strike me as simple truth.  We all interface with the world through our own perceptions, and men have perceptions too, they're just different from women's.  Plus, people often joke about doing things that they'd never ever even consider really doing.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

As a teenager I soon learned that the guys didn't want "good girl's". If a girl didn't put out then it was soon spread about that she had....but if she did then she was a "Mary Magdalene" ....strange how even people who wouldn't step foot inside a church know all the stories from the Bible about the "fallen women" from Eve on down.

 

  The great irony in that is, Mary Madgalene" was not a prostitute. A fiction dreamed up by the church and there was more then one so called "prostitute" in the Christ's genealogy. If their good enough for God then hey.....it's not a bad thing.

[jesskayding]

From what I see, is maybe while a man is still maturing he may want the easy girl. However they marry good girls

.. In general. Now Mary apparently was a bad bad girl. Its what the Dr. ordered. So really it depends on what the guy likes. Just like it depends on what the woman wants. According to Steve Harvey women hold all the cards. We have to believe that & trust our intuition.

 

Somebody tells you I'm v the man " you do what I tell you, when I tell you, how I tell you" walk away, no matter how much of yourself you've given to him. That's in quotes because I dated a man who said those exact words to me. I left a pair of dress pants and my Aretha Franklin anthology CD'S behind, but I didn't look back. He stalked me for a little bit after.

 

So my point is we as women, control how we will be treated in a relationship. Just got to have high esteem. I prefer to be single all my life than to end up in miserable marriage or long-term partnership.

[sfmpco]

Why would anyone want to slap Sherlock? (If you're not John, that is). I would much prefer to give him a hug. I feel like he needs one most times. And I don't even like hugs myself.

 

Except in general he's not really the touchy-feely type and sort of stiffens when hugged, especially if it's not his idea... because you know, the world revolves around HIM (in his mind!)

[T.o.b.y]

 

Why would anyone want to slap Sherlock? (If you're not John, that is). I would much prefer to give him a hug. I feel like he needs one most times. And I don't even like hugs myself.

 

Except in general he's not really the touchy-feely type and sort of stiffens when hugged, especially if it's not his idea... because you know, the world revolves around HIM (in his mind!)

 

 

I can't imagine hugging Sherlock either... I thought it was so funny in The Sign of Three when he continued talking the second John left him a bit of room to breathe, and John asked if he could at least wait until he'd sat down.

[PatB]

The lack of respect Sherlock showed Mary with that remark is just one example of his lack of respect for everyone. His remark about John 'moving on' with his life when Sherlock was supposedly dead  - "What life? I've been away" - was hardly more respectful. Or when he shouts at Mrs Hudson, "What is the point of you?". Or his advice to Molly: "I suggest you avoid all future attempts at a relationship, Molly". That's what Sherlock is like. We know that, and John knows that. John comes back for more, and so do we, in our millions. What can you do?

 

[jesskayding]

Yeah. I guess we're all hopelessly in love with him.

[T.o.b.y]

The lack of respect Sherlock showed Mary with that remark is just one example of his lack of respect for everyone. His remark about John 'moving on' with his life when Sherlock was supposedly dead  - "What life? I've been away" - was hardly more respectful. Or when he shouts at Mrs Hudson, "What is the point of you?". Or his advice to Molly: "I suggest you avoid all future attempts at a relationship, Molly". That's what Sherlock is like. We know that, and John knows that. John comes back for more, and so do we, in our millions. What can you do?

 

But the thing is, Sherlock doesn't really lack respect for other human beings. He only pretends he does. His "sociopath" persona is one big act that helps him function, not his true self. He knows perfectly well what the point is of Mrs Hudson, and he goes ballistic when she is hurt or insulted by anyone else. In his heart of hearts, he is glad for Molly when she finds a "nice" boyfriend, and he would (and does!) literally kill for John and Mary.

 

I wouldn't love him so well if he wasn't like that.

 

[besleybean]

He kills for John.  Period.

[T.o.b.y]

He kills for John.  Period.

 

You mean he wouldn't have shot Magnussen for Mary's sake alone? Maybe... I have no idea. It would be interesting to know how Sherlock would have felt about Mary if she was "just" any other client, and not connected to John. I think he'd still like her. And I also think he didn't just shoot the man for John's sake, but for everybody's. In the original story, Holmes is perfectly okay with Magnussen being shot, even though there is no personal connection whatsoever.

 

[jesskayding]

 

 

The lack of respect Sherlock showed Mary with that remark is just one example of his lack of respect for everyone. His remark about John 'moving on' with his life when Sherlock was supposedly dead - "What life? I've been away" - was hardly more respectful. Or when he shouts at Mrs Hudson, "What is the point of you?". Or his advice to Molly: "I suggest you avoid all future attempts at a relationship, Molly". That's what Sherlock is like. We know that, and John knows that. John comes back for more, and so do we, in our millions. What can you do?

But the thing is, Sherlock doesn't really lack respect for other human beings. He only pretends he does. His "sociopath" persona is one big act that helps him function, not his true self. He knows perfectly well what the point is of Mrs Hudson, and he goes ballistic when she is hurt or insulted by anyone else. In his heart of hearts, he is glad for Molly when she finds a "nice" boyfriend, and he would (and does!) literally kill for John and Mary.

 

I wouldn't love him so well if he wasn't like that.

 

I don't think he's pretending @ all. I think he is very passionate & means what he says. Just is without diplomacy and tact. What we see of Sherlock is what we get. He's a complex character, not easily summarized.

[Arcadia]

 

He kills for John.  Period.

 

You mean he wouldn't have shot Magnussen for Mary's sake alone? Maybe... I have no idea. It would be interesting to know how Sherlock would have felt about Mary if she was "just" any other client, and not connected to John. I think he'd still like her. And I also think he didn't just shoot the man for John's sake, but for everybody's. In the original story, Holmes is perfectly okay with Magnussen being shot, even though there is no personal connection whatsoever.

 

Hmmm, I wonder too. Maybe that's why they tried to establish that Sherlock hated CAM even before he knew there WAS a connection to Mary? Sherlock despised the man enough to shoot him for any client? Dunno. It's a very confusing episode if you try to parse anything but the emotional arc.

[jesskayding]

I thought Besley was saying that he shot to save John. If Mary's possible demise wouldn't have affected John, then CAM may still have been left alive.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

By the look on Sherlock's face when CAM started going on about how he did this to Janine and the little funny noises she made when he flicked her face, he didn't do it just for Mary. There was John, of course...and Mary....but Janine....Lady Smallwood and what CAM did to Lord Smallwood and others like him....and then there is  Mycroft.  There were a lot of reasons behind that bullet.

[jesskayding]

Honestly I think he had the same attitude as Mary.. "People like Magnussen must be stopped" "That's why there are people like me"

 

That may not be word for word. But you get the gist.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

No, not at first. By his reaction when CAM showed him and John how his own version of the mind palace worked, Sherlock believed that there were vaults with hard copy. Letters and files that could be exchanged. Bargained for. Shooting CAM was not foremost in Sherlock's mind. It was the very last ditch effort to save the people loved and cared about the most.