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So if John and Mary Morstan get married and she dies between "The Adventure of the Final Problem" and "The Adventure of the Empty House" when sherlock comes back does that mean we don't have to have her around for long in the show?

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Hello, Tove -- welcome to Sherlock Forum!

 

You've raised a very interesting question, but I'm afraid that I don't have any answer for you other than "who knows?" Moftiss have messed with ACD's chronology already (e.g., introducing Moriarty well before "Reichenbach"), so they may well mess with his chronology again. If they even introduce Mary at all.

 

P.S.: If you are perchance a slithy Tove, do take care to beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Cumberbatch -- er, Bandersnatch!

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pretty sure she died before that though didn't she

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I have one AU headcanon where Sherlock and Mary agree to share... with protests from Sherlock, naturally, as he doesn't see why he should share anything, least of all John but one thing that John and Mary have in common by the bucket load is tenacity.

 

 

If we do see Mary, I don't want to see her as yet another woman who is defined by her relationships to men. I'd like to see her as a strong woman in her own right, someone who would attract John because of who she was - not because of who she *wasn't* - and I'd like it to be *her* decision to walk away, for her to be the one who sees what Sherlock and John don't and to keep her dignity intact.

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I liked and didn't like mary in the books. For the likes. She lets John go with Sherlock. That's wonderful. She even lets him go when it's believed he's missing or dead. I didn't like the instant attraction. I understand it for John because he's lady's man or better known as a womanizer but for Mary to do the same baffles me. Though for that time era it does in a way make sense. John's a doctor, well known writer, probably has money to support a person, military background, educated, and famous to a certain degree. So I suppose I can see why she's attracted to him 'instantly' or rather in my mind took a safe bet knowing she'd be taken care of for the rest of her life.

Again she lets him go with Sherlock which is nice, and then she died. I got the nagging feeling when I read it during high school (been a long time now that I think about it) That ACD wrote her up so he wouldn't get bad critics as being gay was looked down upon at that time. Not that Sherlock and John were gay, but Sherlock was ambiguous and John didn't actually stay with a woman (if it's his fault or not it's never discussed really). For Irene Adler that at least gave in sight on Sherlock's character, and posed to be a female rival which would spark interest. So Irene's character made sense as far as writing goes. Mary did not. We didn't get to mourn her death, she didn't have children, she wasn't really needed. I guess that's what I just think though.

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This Mary sounds like an interesting woman, Tell me more.

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P.S.: If you are perchance a slithy Tove, do take care to beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Cumberbatch -- er, Bandersnatch!

 

Lewis Carol?

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Right, Tove. (Did you know he's my cousin?)

I apologize for neglecting to include a link, for anyone who's unfamiliar with Lewis Carroll's classic nonsense poem "Jabberwocky" --


'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!


[and so forth ....]


Wow -- you oughta see the spellcheck go crazy on that!

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This Mary sounds like an interesting woman, Tell me more.

 

NO! JOHN! I mean...you've been through how many women already? Sarah, the one with the nose, the one with the spots, ...Jeanette. There, yes. I remembered. Is that all or were there more along the way? And how long did those relationships last, John?
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Wow -- you oughta see the spellcheck go crazy on that!

 

:lol2: Firefox has enough trouble when I try to convince it to speak British English rather than American English.

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:lol2: Firefox has enough trouble when I try to convince it to speak British English rather than American English.

 

I have a lovely British English dictionary/spell checker as a firefox add on. Still gets confused with Vogon and Lewis Carroll though...

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so, maybe Mary will end up being a bad guy that would allow them to bring her in and kick her out in an episode? What female bad guy could be be?

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Hmm, Mary is such a sweet character in Conan Doyle's "The Sign of the Four" that it would definitely be an interesting twist for her to turn out to be a baddie. That's so utterly anti-canon that I doubt Moftiss would even consider it -- but what are your ideas?

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NO! JOHN! I mean...you've been through how many women already? Sarah, the one with the nose, the one with the spots, ...Jeanette. There, yes. I remembered. Is that all or were there more along the way? And how long did those relationships last, John?

 

Is that Sherlock talking? Well then, my dear cousin, you are most certainly right, but you must remember that not everyone has such stiff emotions as we do...John's sensitive, be nice to him.

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(ignores Alice) And why exactly was it those relationships ended in the first place, John? The main shortcoming in all of your relationships are attributed to only one thing: You. A. Your ridiculous choice in women, B. Your idiotic ideas of "dates" (if they can even be called that when it comes to you), and most importantly C. You attempting relationships in the first place and D. Being idiotic enough to think that any woman could possibly be interested in you. Do yourself a favor and wake up. It's time you realised the difference between a dream and reality. Now go and do something useful for a change. I have business to attend to. (goes to THE POOL. You know which one. Shuts himself off from the entire world so no one will see him cry. He knows what he's thinking.) :sherlock2:

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Oh cousin, I can see why women would be interested in him...

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I liked and didn't like mary in the books. ... I didn't like the instant attraction. I understand it for John because he's lady's man or better known as a womanizer but for Mary to do the same baffles me....

I agree that the instant attraction seemed odd. On the other hand, it's highly unlikely that Dr. Watson told us everything -- in Victorian times, "private" covered a far wider area than it does nowadays. Also, in the interest of sticking to the main plot, Watson may have condensed the romantic story considerably.

 

I know you're talking about ACD's books, but your comment about his Watson being a "lady's man" reminds me how puzzled I am by Moftiss describing "our" John with that phrase. Maybe it's another British vs. American language difference? Despite the dictionary definition ("a man fond of the company of women and attentive to them"), it's my impression that here in the US, the term "lady's man" is used most often to mean (as you say) the same thing as "womanizer" -- in other words, a "love 'em and leave 'em" type, a "girl in every port" kinda guy.

 

I don't see how that describes John. It's obvious that he likes women, of course. But he's a very honorable man. We've never seen him so much as date several women at once, or dump a woman because he met someone prettier. Even now that Sherlock isn't around to interfere with his romantic life, I really can't imagine John doing anything of that sort.

 

So how is the term commonly used in the UK?

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So how is the term [Lady's man] commonly used in the UK?

 

Most commonly it is synonymous with "Charmer" or "Smoothie" not necessarily implying a lack of monogamy, but not precluding it either. It doesn't tend to have quite as many negative connotations as "Womaniser" or "Cad" or "Rogue"

 

At least that's my understanding of it.

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Thanks, Tim. The only time I recall seeing John act much like that was talking with Dr. Louise Mortimer in "Hounds." He seems to be able to put on an act for a case (e.g., his "reporter" routine with Connie Prince's brother in "Great Game"). In his own actual romantic life, I think his charm lies mostly in a disarming awkwardness, except when he feels at ease with a woman (in which case he's not being "smooth," he's being genuine). Different opinion, anyone?

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Several of us have said (somewhere) that we'd like to see the next episode begin by alternating between scenes of John getting on with his life (and/or trying to clear Sherlock's name) and scenes of Sherlock offing the remaining snipers (and/or secretly helping John). We've already been told (more or less) that the episode will be based on "The Empty House." I believe I've come up with a way to incorporate all of that, plus "The Sign of the Four," introducing Mary Morstan. (The only problem I see with this is the potential confusion between Miss Morstan and Moran from "The Empty House" -- but then, I'm easily confused.)

 

OK, here goes: John is at 221B when Mary comes to hire a detective (either she's been out of the country and doesn't know that Sherlock is "dead," or else she assumes that the "agency" is still in business anyway). Even though John has had no thought of being a detective on his own, he's attracted to Mary and hates to disappoint her, so he promises to give it his best shot. The plot continues somewhat along the lines of "Sign of the Four," except that John is (apparently) working on his own. Fortunately, his methodical investigation keeps turning up miraculously helpful clues (planted in John's path by Sherlock, of course). Eventually, Sherlock admits to John that he's still alive, and we segue into "The Empty House" (which seems far too short to be an episode on its own).

 

Still not sure where the "rat" is, though.

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"rat" could be in the context of "ratting" on someone

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True.

 

Or, of course, it could be literally the animal.

 

Or one of those thingies that women used to hide under their hairdo in order to make their hair look fuller (which lead, in time, to the verb to "rat" one's hair by backcombing, to give a somewhat similar effect). Maybe Mary is into beehive hairdos?

 

Or a "rat-faced" person, like ACD described Lestrade (he obviously did NOT have Rupert Graves in mind!).

 

Or maybe the "rat" is Moftiss, for stringing all of us along!

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I disagree to an extent. He already did what he wanted to do by that time. Note his shoes. When he puts them up they have a red clay on them. He's asked for moments alone before as well. Such as when he tells everyone to get out to go to his mind palace. If anything he may have needed time alone to change his clothes.

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this comes to mind

 

The Boscome Valley Mystery - in it there's a girl with the same surname and Sebastian in the books it makes no difference at all what her name is though maybe it will tie into the empty house that'd be pretty neat. IN the story she just witneses part of the murder. A murder involving gangs robberies and blackmail.

 

as much as I like the sign of four I doubt it ties in correctly because if I remember right Mary dies before Moriarty 'dies'. There's another case I forget what it's called for some reason my brain is saying something to do with snakes but I doubt that. Either way. Sherlock proposes to a woman. I remember now I was thinking the noble bachelor. otHER CASES that it could be are. A case of Identity, the speckled band. The soilitary Cyclist. The illustrius client and Lady Frances Cartax. I'm personally hoping for a noble bacelor or the speckled band though I doubt it's the speckled band because there was already a haha funny when John named a case 'the speckled blonde' so my deduction leaves me hopefully with the noble bachelor. I HOPE.

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I disagree to an extent. He already did what he wanted to do by that time. Note his shoes. When he puts them up they have a red clay on them. He's asked for moments alone before as well. Such as when he tells everyone to get out to go to his mind palace. If anything he may have needed time alone to change his clothes.

 

Maybe I shouldn't try to post so late at night -- but which post are you disagreeing with? Sounds like you might be talking about "The Reichenbach Fall" (?).

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