Subtext Interpretation... What Do You See?

[Shadow Dweller]

Complacency?  I'm not sure I see it quite that way. Yes, Moriarty was bored and had learned enough about Sherlock to know that he got bored too. That Sherlock's mind needed stimulation. But it was Moriarty that got bored with the game first. He killed an innocent blind woman and almost a dozen other people for no reason. He woke the sleeping giant within Sherlock's psyche. Sherlock, for all his claims of being a sociopath loved the game for the game's sake. But start killing people for no reason?  Not so much. Hurt people and he would become the hunter and the dangerous man.

 

Precisely, Sherlock's boredom and taste for adrenalin is one of his buttons. The string of human-bombs is count as unavoidable collateral damage  in the way of 'damsels in distress'. 

 

 

I wonder... does Sherlock ever realize that Moriarty had been lulling him into complacency with the Carl Powers case, a string of human-bombs incident and the royal scandal? It seems that there is a method in 'Jim's madness' after all. 

 

Hmm -- so you think perhaps Moriarty was testing Sherlock's ability level, then making The Game slightly too easy for him, just to lull him into thinking that he had the upper hand?  That would be a good strategy, and might well have worked if Sherlock hadn't been pulling roughly the same thing on Moriarty.

 

Maybe Sherlock realized that, but I suspect that it didn't really matter to him, because he knew (or at least believed) that he was actually the one in control all along.  Hopefully he was right, and will not be blindsided by Moriarty in a future episode!

 

 

Testing and keeping him on the edge, wanting for more in hope to affect his (rational) thought process. 

 

But Moriarty's unpredictable. When he shot himself on the rooftop, Sherlock never saw it coming. Although Sherlock did prepare quite a few different plans to fake his own death, he didn't anticipate Moriarty's suicide.

 

Perhaps Moriarty knew Sherlock didn't know. Maybe he thought that if he faked his death, Sherlock would die for real. So one thought the other was dead dead, when in fact both of them may be still alive!

 

Nothing is truly unpredictable, that is what contingency planning for, to anticipate various turn of events and to maximise gain despite the odds. Moriarty is not a mere static element in the equation, he would not always be there to pull the strings directly but the scheme must go on, as proven that in death he still hold power upon Sherlock (kill yourself or your friends die). Good thing that the Holmes brothers finally decide to band together against Moriarty because so far, despite his penchant for stringing evidences from crime scene in order to form accurate deduction, Sherlock have blind spot in reading chain of events that is not directly connected with human being (that's Mycroft's forte). Forest for the trees.

[T.o.b.y]

Taking this here because I think that's the best place for it:

 

I just listen to what writers and actors have all said: there is no Johnlock in BBC Sherlock.

 

I know they have insisted on that over and over and over again. In universe (John's repeated "I am not gay!") and out.

 

I believe them. Insofar as I believe they don't seriously intend to make the two main characters end up in bed with each other.

 

But: Every time I hear them go on about that, I think "boys - when was the last time you read your own scripts or watched your own show?"

 

Because they certainly did not go out of their way to prevent that interpretation. I think they courted it and they continue to court it even after people's minds have so famously run away with the idea that they can't even avoid it in professional interviews and talk show hosts are shoving explicit fan art in their faces.

 

There were so many chances for them to make a final statement on the matter. Lets begin with Irene Adler. Okay, here's a woman for Sherlock, here's The Woman, and what happens? She declares that the boys are a couple and she makes the point that you can be in love with Sherlock Holmes no matter what your sexual orientation is. Meanwhile, we still don't know whether Sherlock was really attracted to her boobs or her mind (or both?), we don't know whether he really loved her, and we have no clue whether they had sex.

 

Next, season three. John gets married and Sherlock has his first (?) girlfriend, besides there's a pretty broad hint that he's discovering too late what he could have had with Molly if he hadn't left her to be snatched up by a pathetic Sherlock Holmes lookalike named Tom. Now, that should have really done it, shouldn't it? But nope. The tone got more romantic than ever, an entire episode was devoted to showing how devastated Sherlock is that John is getting married and becoming a father, and every classic bride / groom moment is replaced with an analogous one between Sherlock and John until I was left wondering whose marriage to whom I was watching. The whole Janine thing turned out to be a fake, the script takes care to clarify that Sherlock did not in fact sleep with her, Molly is available again by the beginning of the third episode yet all that happens is her slapping Sherlock's face and at the end there's a scene that practically invites everybody (including John!) to suspect Sherlock stopped himself in the nick of time from making a declaration of love.

 

 

Look, I'm not actively seeking all this out. I don't want the boys to be a romantic couple, at least not in the sexual meaning of the word. I don't consider pairing them off a terrible idea, I just think it's a misunderstanding of something a lot more beautiful. I just see a discrepancy between what people making the show say about it and what they actually put on screen.

 

I expect that by series 4, they will be so fed up with part of the fandom that they will indeed kill the idea. If they don't, if the next episodes continue to tease the romance between the men the way series 3 did, then I will consider that as proof that it's deliberate and they want the subtext right where it is. Why is another question. Perhaps because market research showed that they get a bigger audience that way. Who knows. I don't even really care. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't excite me, it's just something I notice.

 

[J.P.]

IMO, the allusions are just fun and ironic, because Mofftiss knew the fandom would ship them sooner or later. It looks as if the guys themselves knew about their fandom outside of show's universe (and maybe an in-universe fandom that ships them too) ;) John's: "people will talk..."

 

To me it is a running gag and absolutely hilarious. 

[T.o.b.y]

It's funny because the joke is more on the audience than on the characters, I guess. At least I've never found it in any way offensive and I'm usually rather sensitive when it comes to putting "gay" and "joke" in the same sentence.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Mofftiss didn't have to look very far if they believed that any shipping at all was going to happen. It happened very early on when Doyle was still writing the stories, and in today's climate of homosexuality in both the public and political discussions, it was probably pretty much unavoidable whether they wanted it or not.

[Arcadia]

 

I just listen to what writers and actors have all said: there is no Johnlock in BBC Sherlock.

I know they have insisted on that over and over and over again. In universe (John's repeated "I am not gay!") and out.

 

I believe them. Insofar as I believe they don't seriously intend to make the two main characters end up in bed with each other.

 

But: Every time I hear them go on about that, I think "boys - when was the last time you read your own scripts or watched your own show?"

 

Because they certainly did not go out of their way to prevent that interpretation. I think they courted it and they continue to court it even after people's minds have so famously run away with the idea that they can't even avoid it in professional interviews and talk show hosts are shoving explicit fan art in their faces.

 

There were so many chances for them to make a final statement on the matter. Lets begin with Irene Adler. Okay, here's a woman for Sherlock, here's The Woman, and what happens? She declares that the boys are a couple and she makes the point that you can be in love with Sherlock Holmes no matter what your sexual orientation is. Meanwhile, we still don't know whether Sherlock was really attracted to her boobs or her mind (or both?), we don't know whether he really loved her, and we have no clue whether they had sex.

 

Next, season three. John gets married and Sherlock has his first (?) girlfriend, besides there's a pretty broad hint that he's discovering too late what he could have had with Molly if he hadn't left her to be snatched up by a pathetic Sherlock Holmes lookalike named Tom. Now, that should have really done it, shouldn't it? But nope. The tone got more romantic than ever, an entire episode was devoted to showing how devastated Sherlock is that John is getting married and becoming a father, and every classic bride / groom moment is replaced with an analogous one between Sherlock and John until I was left wondering whose marriage to whom I was watching. The whole Janine thing turned out to be a fake, the script takes care to clarify that Sherlock did not in fact sleep with her, Molly is available again by the beginning of the third episode yet all that happens is her slapping Sherlock's face and at the end there's a scene that practically invites everybody (including John!) to suspect Sherlock stopped himself in the nick of time from making a declaration of love.

 

Look, I'm not actively seeking all this out. I don't want the boys to be a romantic couple, at least not in the sexual meaning of the word. I don't consider pairing them off a terrible idea, I just think it's a misunderstanding of something a lot more beautiful. I just see a discrepancy between what people making the show say about it and what they actually put on screen.

 

That pretty much sums up my feelings on this subject (except for the "analogous" bride/groom moments. Huh? There's the photo of John & Sherlock, but what else?) Of course it's all deliberate. I just don't believe it means what some people want it to mean.

 

I expect that by series 4, they will be so fed up with part of the fandom that they will indeed kill the idea. If they don't, if the next episodes continue to tease the romance between the men the way series 3 did, then I will consider that as proof that it's deliberate and they want the subtext right where it is. Why is another question. Perhaps because market research showed that they get a bigger audience that way. Who knows. I don't even really care. It doesn't bother me, it doesn't excite me, it's just something I notice.

 

Why? Because it's fun. Moftiss are a couple of big teasers who love to tease.

 

I've had the same thought -- they're tired of the smutty drawings and erotic fanfics, and are ready to shut it down. But then I think, even if they show Sherlock falling for a woman, marrying her and proceeding to raise six kids, there are always going to be people who believe the one he really wants is John. And there's going to be a whole other set of people who will turn their backs on the show because they think they've been deliberately misled and betrayed. It's just the way people are, and it's my guess that Moftiss have been around long enough to know that. So in the end, I'm willing to bet they'll just keep on going the way they have been, teasing everything that it is possible to tease, and keeping, as Toby says, the subtext right where it is.

 

I'm also willing to bet I'm completely wrong. :P

 

Mofftiss didn't have to look very far if they believed that any shipping at all was going to happen. It happened very early on when Doyle was still writing the stories, and in today's climate of homosexuality in both the public and political discussions, it was probably pretty much unavoidable whether they wanted it or not.

 

I wonder about that. After all, they did start the joke themselves. Would people have leapt to the same conclusions if Moftiss hadn't brought it up in the first place? A few, of course, but would it be at the level it is now? I just don't know.

[Shadow Dweller]

Fans will ship everyone to their heart's content. Never mind Sherlock & John who are thick as thieves together, just look how popular Mystrade and those two characters only exist together in a very unromantic scene for less than a minute :lol:

[Arcadia]

Yeah, I still don't get where that came from!

[Carol the Dabbler]

It probably comes from people who think both of them are sexy -- not that I'd argue!

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Heck, how long did it take for people to start shipping Spock and Kirk. There have been whole genre of comic book that have been in the underground for heaven only knows how long.  And talk about X rated?  Some of that stuff has so many X's in front of it it's astronomical.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Heck, how long did it take for people to start shipping Spock and Kirk.

 

It was about eight years from the premiere of Star Trek on NBC to the publication of the fan story generally acknowledged to be the first Kirk/Spock fiction.  Once the genre was established, however, it didn't take long for more to follow.

[Shadow Dweller]

"You are my superior officer. You are also my friend. I have been and always shall be yours." *sniffles* That's so beautiful & heart-wrenching. Kudos to the late Leonard Nimoy for superb performance.

[J.P.]

It's funny because the joke is more on the audience than on the characters, I guess. At least I've never found it in any way offensive and I'm usually rather sensitive when it comes to putting "gay" and "joke" in the same sentence.

 

Because IMO they are not gay jokes but making fun of people who see Sherlock and John as gay.

 

As for why Mofftiss put it in the show: well, they knew the shipping would happen, so why don't use it to make the rest of us laugh our heads off?

[Boton]

 

It's funny because the joke is more on the audience than on the characters, I guess. At least I've never found it in any way offensive and I'm usually rather sensitive when it comes to putting "gay" and "joke" in the same sentence.

 

Because IMO they are not gay jokes but making fun of people who see Sherlock and John as gay.

 

As for why Mofftiss put it in the show: well, they knew the shipping would happen, so why don't use it to make the rest of us laugh our heads off?

 

 

I think that Moftiss kind of got caught by their own fanboy-ness.  They've both spent their whole lives reading Conan Doyle and watching other interpretations and thinking about Holmes and Watson, and to them, the idea of these two particular characters being a romantic and/or sexual item is preposterous!  (Not the idea that two guys could be, but that these particular two guys are.)  It's so out of character in their minds that they leaped right into the jokes early on because they assumed that everyone would see the insinuations as funny.  But, instead, a lot of people who weren't as familiar with Holmes and Watson (let alone this new Sherlock and John) started taking humorous subtext as text.

 

That wouldn't have stopped slash fiction, of course.  Everyone points out Kirk/Spock.  If fan fiction can take a guy who systematically beds every woman who stands still across the galaxy, and a guy who comes into heat every seven years but otherwise has only pursued women every time his inhibitions are down, and turns them into a same sex couple, then it is going to happen with every attractive pairing of men in fiction.  

[J.P.]

 

 But, instead, a lot of people who weren't as familiar with Holmes and Watson (let alone this new Sherlock and John) started taking humorous subtext as text.

Oh, well, there are enough people around complaining about Gatiss forcing a gay agende into the series.

[Arcadia]

Okay, live and learn! I had no idea this was a thing in other fandoms as well, or went as far back. I just assumed it was an internet phenom, for one thing. Huh. Oh, well, then, even less of a reason to make much of it, imo.  My gut instinct tells me Boton's on the right track anyway. So carry on, Moftiss! Lead and I follow.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Heck no. Nothing new what so ever. There were whole books written in the 50's and 60's about whether or not Holmes and Watson were gay. Some authors were very clear in that they believed the two were. Even here on the Forum members, one I remember clearly, said they started reading the Doyle SH stories when they were 14 years of age and thought Holmes and Watson were gay from the get go.

[Arcadia]

Wow. Well, to each his/her own.

[J.P.]

Heck no. Nothing knew what so ever. There were whole books written in the 50's and 60's about whether or not Holmes and Watson were gay. Some authors were very clear in that they believed the two were. Even here on the Forum members, one I remember clearly, said they started reading the Doyle SH stories when they were 14 years of age and thought Holmes and Watson were gay from the get go.

 

Now this gives the running gag an additional dimension. Now I like it even more. Didn't know it either, but I don't know much about the canon anyway.

[Boton]

Okay, live and learn! I had no idea this was a thing in other fandoms as well, or went as far back. I just assumed it was an internet phenom, for one thing. Huh. Oh, well, then, even less of a reason to make much of it, imo.  My gut instinct tells me Boton's on the right track anyway. So carry on, Moftiss! Lead and I follow.

 

I was reminded, with the recent death of Leonard Nimoy, of some of the canon back story of Star Trek.  Apparently, there's a Vulcan word, t'hy'la, which means "friend," "brother," or "lover."  Gene Roddenberry apparently said that Captain Kirk said that he hadn't heard of the multiple meanings, but he wouldn't be so foolish as to pick a sexual partner who only was interested every several years.  So, even back in the 1970s or so, we have an example of a creator baiting the fandom with subtext jokes about the relationship between the main characters and then having one of the characters vehemently deny it.   ;)

[T.o.b.y]

I think that Moftiss kind of got caught by their own fanboy-ness.  They've both spent their whole lives reading Conan Doyle and watching other interpretations and thinking about Holmes and Watson, and to them, the idea of these two particular characters being a romantic and/or sexual item is preposterous!  (Not the idea that two guys could be, but that these particular two guys are.)  It's so out of character in their minds that they leaped right into the jokes early on because they assumed that everyone would see the insinuations as funny.  But, instead, a lot of people who weren't as familiar with Holmes and Watson (let alone this new Sherlock and John) started taking humorous subtext as text.

 

I accept that for the first series. Maybe even the second, since it was probably written before the series had gained much noticeable reaction from fans. But by the time they made series 3, they must have been very much aware of what was happening and I can't really say I got the impression they were trying to stop it.

 

Which is just fine, really. Perfectly fine. It's just that... well, it seems odd to me that on the one hand they tease an idea as far as it will go without making it reality and on the other hand claiming that it is "absurd".

 

Of course people will ship whatever they want and there is absolutely nothing a writer could (or should?) do to prevent that. But in this particular case, I just feel as if they started it, and it's not quite reasonable for them to complain about it now or act as if they had no idea where some fans got their delusions from.

 

Anyway. It will be interesting to see what happens in series 4. I kind of expect a romantic arc for Sherlock and Molly. Don't ask me why, I just do. Not that I want one, mind you! I just have a gut feeling it's going to happen.

 

 

[Arcadia]

I don't get it ....

[T.o.b.y]

You don't get what? Why I have a hunch that next season will explore Sherlock and Molly in some odd kind of romance? I don't know... Hunches are weird things. I suppose it's what my funny old brain made of Molly being conveniently single again at the end of series 3, of Moriarty coming back to threaten her and the newly found need for showing how manly Sherlock is by hooking him up with at least one pretty woman per series. I just hope Molly won't have to suffer in any way. Actually, I hope I am wrong about this altogether.

[Boton]

You don't get what? Why I have a hunch that next season will explore Sherlock and Molly in some odd kind of romance? I don't know... Hunches are weird things. I suppose it's what my funny old brain made of Molly being conveniently single again at the end of series 3, of Moriarty coming back to threaten her and the newly found need for showing how manly Sherlock is by hooking him up with at least one pretty woman per series. I just hope Molly won't have to suffer in any way. Actually, I hope I am wrong about this altogether.

 

I hope you're wrong about it being Molly, but I do think you're on to something with the idea of hooking Sherlock up once a season.  I'm pretty OK with that, but just please, no Molly.

[Arcadia]

You don't get what? Why I have a hunch that next season will explore Sherlock and Molly in some odd kind of romance? I don't know... Hunches are weird things. I suppose it's what my funny old brain made of Molly being conveniently single again at the end of series 3, of Moriarty coming back to threaten her and the newly found need for showing how manly Sherlock is by hooking him up with at least one pretty woman per series. I just hope Molly won't have to suffer in any way. Actually, I hope I am wrong about this altogether.

That's what I get for being too lazy to use the "quote" feature. :lol: No, what I don't get is Boton's point about Star Trek. But somehow your post slipped in ahead of mine and I didn't notice.

 

I don't know what to think about Molly. It's time to do something with her besides showing her mooning after Sherlock, but I just can't see them together romantically. I wouldn't mind seeing Molly doing something plucky, though, like unexpectedly saving Sherlock's arse from ... something. And sassing him. I'd like to see her sass him into next week.

 

 

I think that Moftiss kind of got caught by their own fanboy-ness.  They've both spent their whole lives reading Conan Doyle and watching other interpretations and thinking about Holmes and Watson, and to them, the idea of these two particular characters being a romantic and/or sexual item is preposterous!  (Not the idea that two guys could be, but that these particular two guys are.)  It's so out of character in their minds that they leaped right into the jokes early on because they assumed that everyone would see the insinuations as funny.  But, instead, a lot of people who weren't as familiar with Holmes and Watson (let alone this new Sherlock and John) started taking humorous subtext as text.

 

I accept that for the first series. Maybe even the second, since it was probably written before the series had gained much noticeable reaction from fans. But by the time they made series 3, they must have been very much aware of what was happening and I can't really say I got the impression they were trying to stop it.

 

Which is just fine, really. Perfectly fine. It's just that... well, it seems odd to me that on the one hand they tease an idea as far as it will go without making it reality and on the other hand claiming that it is "absurd".

 

Of course people will ship whatever they want and there is absolutely nothing a writer could (or should?) do to prevent that. But in this particular case, I just feel as if they started it, and it's not quite reasonable for them to complain about it now or act as if they had no idea where some fans got their delusions from.

 

Oh, good point. Yes, I have to agree with that too. In fact, I've occasionally had to wrestle with myself to not get steamed about it. Nobody likes to be played for a fool, and sometimes I get the impression that's exactly what's going on. Ah well, whatever. When I get to thinking that way I know it's time to put on an episode of Sherlock and remind myself why I love the show.

 

To be fair, they don't just tease about John and Sherlock, they've got plenty in there to stir up the Sherlolly crew too. "What do you need?" "You." If that's not stoking the shipping engine, I don't know what is!