Holmes Senior vs Holmes Junior

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

She's the reason the CIA agent gets dropped out a window a few times. 

[Shadow Dweller]

It seemed to be common knowledge. Even Mrs Hudson takes Mycroft to task about it before she is roughed up by them. 

 

 

She's the reason the CIA agent gets dropped out a window a few times. 

 

These two statements confused me. We get an impression that statement 2 is correct but unless stated so then there is a possibility that she is merely part of the reason. What about statement 1, what Mrs. Hudson said then?

[Carol the Dabbler]

It seemed to be common knowledge. Even Mrs Hudson takes Mycroft to task about it before she is roughed up by them. 

 

Is she? I must watch that episode again.

 

It's in the breakfast scene:

 

SHERLOCK: Did you know there were other people after her too, Mycroft, before you sent John and I in there? CIA-trained killers, at an excellent guess.

JOHN: Yeah, thanks for that, Mycroft.

MRS HUDSON (sternly): It’s a disgrace, sending your little brother into danger like that. Family is all we have in the end, Mycroft Holmes.

MYCROFT: Oh, shut up, Mrs Hudson.

SHERLOCK (furiously): MYCROFT!

JOHN (simultaneously and equally furiously): OI!

MYCROFT: Apologies.

MRS HUDSON: Thank you.

SHERLOCK: Though do, in fact, shut up.

[Arcadia]

I may have believed Mycroft about Irene.......but those CIA agents.....nope. He knew who they were. They were at the plane. Mycroft isn't that nieve. And I do believe that Mycroft knew Sherlock enough to know that the more you tell him not to do something the more he going to look into it. I still find that laptop very suspecious. Mycroft would not be "The British Government" by not knowing the devil in the detais.

He knew who they were, but I didn't think he knew they were planning to threaten Irene and Mrs. Hudson. What would be the point, from his perspective? But you're right about the laptop, it's completely suspicious, as is his dropping of the phrase "Bond Air" right in front of Sherlock. A master manipulator, Mycroft. He makes Sherlock look like an amateur in that regard!

 

 

It seemed to be common knowledge. Even Mrs Hudson takes Mycroft to task about it before she is roughed up by them.

She's the reason the CIA agent gets dropped out a window a few times.

These two statements confused me. We get an impression that statement 2 is correct but unless stated so then there is a possibility that she is merely part of the reason. What about statement 1, what Mrs. Hudson said then?

 

If I may ... Statement 1 was when Mrs. Hudson scolded Mycroft for sending John & Sherlock to Irene's, where they were almost killed by the CIA guys. But there's no reason, in my opinion, to assume she knew anything about the CIA guys until that morning. I personally think John & Sherlock told her about their adventures over breakfast.

 

Mycroft was working with the CIA, but again, I don't see any reason to assume he knew that they also went to Irene's, or that they would threaten to kill John, or that they would, months later, attack Mrs. Hudson. Although maybe he should have, since he's so smart.

 

And finally, yes, Sherlock threw the CIA man out the window because he hurt Mrs. Hudson.

 

Does that help?

[Arcadia]

Ooops, I see Carol was working on an answer too. I note, from reading that quote. that Mycroft neither confirms nor denies any knowledge of the CIA's activities. Typical bureaucrat. :p

[Shadow Dweller]

 

It seemed to be common knowledge. Even Mrs Hudson takes Mycroft to task about it before she is roughed up by them. 

 

Is she? I must watch that episode again.

 

It's in the breakfast scene:

 

SHERLOCK: Did you know there were other people after her too, Mycroft, before you sent John and I in there? CIA-trained killers, at an excellent guess.

JOHN: Yeah, thanks for that, Mycroft.

MRS HUDSON (sternly): It’s a disgrace, sending your little brother into danger like that. Family is all we have in the end, Mycroft Holmes.

MYCROFT: Oh, shut up, Mrs Hudson.

SHERLOCK (furiously): MYCROFT!

JOHN (simultaneously and equally furiously): OI!

MYCROFT: Apologies.

MRS HUDSON: Thank you.

SHERLOCK: Though do, in fact, shut up.

 

 

That's what Mrs. Hudson think, and of course there's possibility like Arcadia said below: 

 

Poor Mycroft, always get the blame every time there's cloak and dagger stuff around lol

 

 

 

He knew who they were, but I didn't think he knew they were planning to threaten Irene and Mrs. Hudson. What would be the point, from his perspective? But you're right about the laptop, it's completely suspicious, as is his dropping of the phrase "Bond Air" right in front of Sherlock. A master manipulator, Mycroft. He makes Sherlock look like an amateur in that regard!

 

 

If I may ... Statement 1 was when Mrs. Hudson scolded Mycroft for sending John & Sherlock to Irene's, where they were almost killed by the CIA guys. But there's no reason, in my opinion, to assume she knew anything about the CIA guys until that morning. I personally think John & Sherlock told her about their adventures over breakfast.

 

Mycroft was working with the CIA, but again, I don't see any reason to assume he knew that they also went to Irene's, or that they would threaten to kill John, or that they would, months later, attack Mrs. Hudson. Although maybe he should have, since he's so smart.

 

And finally, yes, Sherlock threw the CIA man out the window because he hurt Mrs. Hudson.

 

Does that help?

 

 

Thanks for that. It is possible that those CIA agents did not coordinate their moves first with Mycroft for both Irene Adler and Mrs. Hudson's.

[Shadow Dweller]

Ooops, I see Carol was working on an answer too. I note, from reading that quote. that Mycroft neither confirms nor denies any knowledge of the CIA's activities. Typical bureaucrat. :P

 

There are three kinds of phenomenon made by major airborne particles in London: fog, smog and smokescreen 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And it would appear Mycroft Holmes is not above using and or manipulating any or all of it. 

[Shadow Dweller]

And it would appear Mycroft Holmes is not above using and or manipulating any or all of it. 

 

Good thing he's not squeamish about such thing  :lol:

 

Both Holmes brothers are manipulators, they take responsibility upon what came from their machinations but they were not so much burdened by guilt or both of them will break before long. Perhaps Sherlock will go down first, his armour is not as thick as Mycroft's.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think we have already seen how much Sherlock's armor has been compromised. He has begun to acknowledge the depth of friendship. And he has shown just how dangerous it is to threaten those he so favors.

 

But what I want to see is Sherlock to best his older brother at his own game. Sherlock is the best at what he does and it's about time that Mycroft comes to understand just what that is and means. But then, we have heard Mycroft say that England will always need Sherlock Holmes so maybe there is hope for Mycroft yet. 

[Arcadia]

 

But what I want to see is Sherlock to best his older brother at his own game.

Oh, yessssssssss!

[Shadow Dweller]

Empathy is the capacity to share or recognize emotions experienced by another sentient or fictional being. 

 

We mostly see things from Sherlock's side so it is clear that he has difficulty to empathize with other people's concern or consciously choose to disregard it as trivial. Whether it is by nature or by training (or lack of) is still left to individual interpretation. It is not the same with callous disregard to other people's feelings that Sherlock exhibited in season 1. The ability to recognize emotional clues in others and act in socially expected manner, genuine or simulated, is the difference between a successful career in the government and a life of a recluse of a Consulting Detective. I think that Sherlock is learning to function in that aspect of life, it begin with the bromance bond with John Watson. When Sherlock begin to enter the real, very messy landmines of feelings and emotions, Mycroft is still a mystery to us. He clearly have ability to simulate the necessary reactions but on the same time we did not get a clear view of his inner working, like why he choose corpses for the Bond Air project instead of the easier 'I am sorry but you have to die' approach. It is not a mark of conscience nor kindness, it could means many different things, at least it looks like that in my point of view. 

 

Matter of fact, it is Mycroft that seems prone to express feelings rather than Sherlock (although I cannot fathom of him being a Feeler :lol:). 

 

IMHO, capability to keep ourselves from getting emotionally involved in other people's concerns is not a flaw, it is an advantage that is vital in life. Caring is no a matter of a disadvantage or an advantage, it is just there and it never hold me back to do what is necessary according to my own inner compass. :P

[Van Buren Supernova]

I adore Sherlock but i want to be Mycroft.

 

Mycroft always have very wise saying, something along the line of:

Caring is disadvantage. Lives would end, hearts will be broken.

 

Loving and losing is too devastating. Always wonder why human is created this way, for having feelings.

Yet there are sickness and death. What for??? It's inhuman!

 

Heart is the only piece of organ that behaves illogically, way beyond what it is suppose to do.

Heart is behaving like an annoying smart ass i would say.

 

 

I think the wisest thing that John ever said about Sherlock is,"you are the wisest human"

Imho, Sherlock represents a very significant type of human, the one who tries desperately to detach his feeling to survive it, because of the emotional trauma he encountered with Redbeard. But as ordinary human, he fails again, can't help for having sentiment about John, Molly, Mrd.Hudson and Lestrade. And look at the price he has to pay.

 

If i ever have a time with Sherlock, i will sit down with him talking about his 243 tobacco ash and fabric patterns, play Operation and Cluedo as many times as he wants to. I would even tolerate a human head in the fridge (and i normally can't stand anything related to dead body at all) just because he deserves for struggling to be strong with such a delicate heart.

It represents my long warm hug for him.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Can anyone imagine if Holmes brohers are not on the side of the angels?

 

Plus: stupidity will extinct.

 

Con: human will extinct. Maybe it's not so bad?

 

Imagine the gang of Holmes brothers and Moriarty plotting!!

[T.o.b.y]

I adore Sherlock but i want to be Mycroft.

 

Really? Mycroft is the last person I'd want to be. I don't think he's wise, either. Is it wise to tell your gifted little brother again and again that he's an idiot until the boy develops a complex and spends the rest of his life trying to prove himself?

 

Also, I doubt that Mycroft is very happy. He doesn't strike me as happy. And he seems to have plenty of worry and bother "being" the government, in spite of his "don't get involved" and "don't care" attitude. He has zero friends (that we know of). He looks down on his own parents, and has managed to alienate the little brother he loves (in a rather sick way, if you ask me, but it's still love). To me, Mycroft is a sad, lonely, middle-aged, pompous, power-hungry and totally unenviable individual with an disquieting sadistic streak.

 

He is amusing, though. They write great lines for him.

[Van Buren Supernova]

My own personal head canon is going to be that the "Vatican Cameos" line was specifically because of John's military career. It makes me smile!

 

One of the things that I find consistent (and lovely) about Mycroft, is that he does seem to genuinely worry about how things will affect Sherlock.

 

He was so concerned over having to lie about Irene's death (and probably worried Sherlock would see through it), that he was driven to smoke, which he doesn't do often.

 

He was worried that Sherlock would revert to drug use and wanted John to stay with him.

 

He wanted John and Sherlock to know that he was sorry for telling Moriarty about Sherlock's life.

 

He was regretful for putting Irene in Sherlock's path and setting him up for heartache.

 

This is a big reason why Mycroft is one of my favorite characters. And I absolutely love Gatiss' portrayal!

 

You convinced me that Mycroft is a very good big brother!

 

One of my favorite scene in Study in Pink is when John ask Mycroft,"So when you said that you are concern with Sherlock, you mean it?"

And Mycroft expression looking back at John,"Well yes of course."

Completely unaware of how he come across to 'normal' people, he must had been thinking, what kind of question this goldfish is asking?

[Van Buren Supernova]

 

 

I adore Sherlock but i want to be Mycroft.

Really? Mycroft is the last person I'd want to be. I don't think he's wise, either. Is it wise to tell your gifted little brother again and again that he's an idiot until the boy develops a complex and spends the rest of his life trying to prove himself?

 

Also, I doubt that Mycroft is very happy. He doesn't strike me as happy. And he7 seems to have plenty of worry and bother "being" the government, in spite of his "don't get involved" and "don't care" attitude. He has zero friends (that we know of). He looks down on his own parents, and has managed to alienate the little brother he loves (in a rather sick way, if you ask me, but it's still love). To me, Mycroft is a sad, lonely, middle-aged, pompous, power-hungry and totally unenviable individual with an disquieting sadistic streak.

 

He is amusing, though. They write great lines for him.

I alwaays think he unintentionally putting Sherlock in that situation. In fact, it's actually his way to express his love and trying to protect his little brother. He might had seen what Sherlock went through with Redbeard, and trying his best not to let him going through all that again. His way might be sadistic, but that is what he can do best. It's probably similar to how we advice our friend not to put upwith horrible spouse because we know he/she will be hurt again. What is the most effective but cruel way to get the message across but reminding them how much it hurt them in the past.

 

What i admire from Mycroft is his ability to detach all that (from what we had seen) because it makes sense. Being attached will result to devastated and hopeless feeling, hundred questions of why.

 

I would say being human is worth it, to love and loss, but his way of life really makes a lot of sense to me, although maybe no one can ever pull that of, not even Mycroft himself at the end of TLV. He was hurt to see what his brother gets into, it's Redbeard all over again.

 

Also, he might miscalculate a lot about how delicate is Sherlock feeling. He might not be aware that he actualy hurting his feeling, just like he said sorry that he didn't know whn he realised how much Irene Adler affects Sherlock.

[Arcadia]

I think the worst thing about believing "caring is not an advantage" and things like that is ... Mycroft must be terribly lonely, in spite of what he says. Maybe he thinks being lonely is better than being bored or surrounded by idiots, or maybe he doesn't recognize lonliness for what it is ... but he's still missing out on a very fundamental aspect of being human. It makes him less of a person, in the long run; he never has to risk being hurt.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I think the worst thing about believing "caring is not an advantage" and things like that is ... Mycroft must be terribly lonely, in spite of what he says. Maybe he thinks being lonely is better than being bored or surrounded by idiots, or maybe he doesn't recognize lonliness for what it is ... but he's still missing out on a very fundamental aspect of being human. It makes him less of a person, in the long run; he never has to risk being hurt.

Agree. Maybe he also thinks being lonely is better than being hurt.

[Arcadia]

That could be, that's not an unusual point of view, is it? Ahh, now I'm feeling a bit sorry for Mycroft ... what could have happened to make him think that way?

[SherlockedCAMPer]

That could be, that's not an unusual point of view, is it? Ahh, now I'm feeling a bit sorry for Mycroft ... what could have happened to make him think that way?

Maybe it has something to do with "The Other One" that was alluded to in HLV.

[Shadow Dweller]

I see Mycroft's many 'heartless' lines as matter of fact statements. They are true, especially when you are involved in the kind of world Mycroft's is. Those statements are rational, although not comfortable for some people. The Holmes brothers are like night and day, neither should mold themselves according to the other's life choice. It is very difficult to go against your own nature in the long run and the cost always would be your physical and mental health.

 

:p Besides, why bother copying other people? Each of us is unique, don't throw away that just to become a cheap copycat. Develop coping strategy to deal with pesky events and people and make sure it is something inline with your true self.

[Arcadia]

I see Mycroft's many 'heartless' lines as matter of fact statements. They are true, especially when you are involved in the kind of world Mycroft's is. Those statements are rational, although not comfortable for some people. The Holmes brothers are like night and day, neither should mold themselves according to the other's life choice. It is very difficult to go against your own nature in the long run and the cost always would be your physical and mental health.

 

Good point! Although I can't help but wonder if the world would be a better place if people with power, like Mycroft, DID care. And I think some of the them do, actually. But you're right, one can't feel too deeply about everything, it would be too much to take. You have to protect yourself, too. Still, I think Mycroft takes it too far. (Or tries too. After all, Sherlock certainly has gotten past his defences, he just tries not to show it.) But mostly, I think you're right; it's in his nature to distance himself from "sentiment."

 

:P Besides, why bother copying other people? Each of us is unique, don't throw away that just to become a cheap copycat. Develop coping strategy to deal with pesky events and people and make sure it is something inline with your true self.

Absolutely! Study and listen to others to learn what you can from them, but no need to outright copy other people. Where's the fun in that! That's what I see happening to Sherlock; he's learning from John and others that some things -- courtesy, for example -- can actually make his job easier and more fun, but he doesn't have to become exactly like John to get along in the world.

[T.o.b.y]

I wonder whether Mycroft really has that many feelings to suppress. The way he failed to foresee how Sherlock would act both in the case of Irene Adler and Magnussen makes me suspect he hardly understands emotions at all. When it comes to what makes Sherlock special, "extraordinary", Mycroft probably understands him like nobody else, but where Sherlock's "human" side is concerned, Mycroft appears to be utterly clueless.

 

He does seem to really love his little brother, but apart from that, Mycroft seems like a pretty cold fish to me. And even his brotherly affection is a diseased, warped, perverted thing. He stalks him, bullies him and enjoys watching him being tortured - that's pretty sick, if you ask me.

[sittything]

I think Mycroft is naturally, personality-wise, a less emotional person.  So I think it comes easier to him than Sherlock, or I guess you could say that he has fewer emotions to suppress.  I feel like Sherlock's emotions are like a volcano.  Like he's managed, with Mycroft's tutelage, to bury them to a point until he just kinda pops... like a cork.  I wonder if Mycroft has a hard time understanding why Sherlock can't always "keep it together" like he does?

 

One reason I'd be really, really curious to see some more background on the brothers, is because I feel like Mycroft's constantly keeping tabs on his little brother has got to be related to either Sherlock's drug use, or something else that went down in the past.  I just feel like there has to be something in the past that created this dynamic between them.

 

I'll have to agree to disagree with Toby that I think Mycroft enjoyed watching Sherlock being tortured.      I still think that was a necessity so that he didn't blow his cover, which he needed to get them outta there.