Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[T.o.b.y]

Also the whole Mary not shooting Magnussen thing. I think that was doing her character a favor. She was running from that past life, she wants to be a good mother & wife. So it was nice she didn't shoot him.

 

Um... so was it nicer for her to shoot Sherlock instead?

 

[jesskayding]

Mm no. Wasn't nicer, but they explained the reasoning. Didn't want to implicate her dear husband in the death of CAM.

[Slithytove]

I don't see why Mary shot Sherlock to avoid the implication that John was involved in murdering CAM. That's as unlikely as the "bullet as surgery" explanation. For a start, she doesn't murder CAM anyway. Maybe protecting John might be a motivation for sparing CAM's life but it isn't a coherent reason for shooting Sherlock. Even Sherlock's explanation that she did it to buy herself time to negotiate with him (Sherlock) makes slightly more sense, though it's pretty feeble - particularly as those negotiations seemed to consist of her looming over his hospital bed and saying, "Don't tell John.". For all she knew, his first words on recovering consciousness could have been, "Mary shot me!". If you want to make a deal with someone, it's best to keep them conscious and rational. If you want to protect your dear husband from becoming a murder suspect, don't commit the murder. And don't show your love for him by shooting his best friend.

 

On the other hand, if you want to silence someone, and stop them telling your dear husband the truth, killing them works pretty well.....That, in my opinion, is the most sensible reason why she shot him.

 

Sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly. Not thinking straight at the moment - eldest daughter and 4 of our grandkids moving to the USA on Friday. Trying to distract myself in various ways, including reading the discussions here and burying myself in Shetlock fanfic till I am too tired to think. Probably not the best strategy but it's the only one I've got.

[jesskayding]

Is that a good thing you're moving here? If so Welcome, come eat & get fat on indulgence. Welcome, welcome to America.

 

 

I agree about the shooting. I don't mind the writers explanation though.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Jess, I think you misread Slithytove's post -- it's her daughter and grandchildren who are moving over here (to Wisconsin, if I recall).  That's why she needs distracting.

 

Slithytove, I think you expressed your opinions very clearly, and I really cannot disagree with you (even though I prefer to think that Mary simply reacted in a rather knee-jerk fashion to Sherlock disregarding her warning).  The whole thing just makes me dizzy!

 

[jesskayding]

Oh. Sorry Slithytove... That's really sad.

[T.o.b.y]

I don't see why Mary shot Sherlock to avoid the implication that John was involved in murdering CAM. That's as unlikely as the "bullet as surgery" explanation. For a start, she doesn't murder CAM anyway. Maybe protecting John might be a motivation for sparing CAM's life but it isn't a coherent reason for shooting Sherlock. Even Sherlock's explanation that she did it to buy herself time to negotiate with him (Sherlock) makes slightly more sense, though it's pretty feeble - particularly as those negotiations seemed to consist of her looming over his hospital bed and saying, "Don't tell John.". For all she knew, his first words on recovering consciousness could have been, "Mary shot me!". If you want to make a deal with someone, it's best to keep them conscious and rational. If you want to protect your dear husband from becoming a murder suspect, don't commit the murder. And don't show your love for him by shooting his best friend.

 

On the other hand, if you want to silence someone, and stop them telling your dear husband the truth, killing them works pretty well.....That, in my opinion, is the most sensible reason why she shot him.

 

Sorry if I'm not expressing myself clearly. Not thinking straight at the moment - eldest daughter and 4 of our grandkids moving to the USA on Friday. Trying to distract myself in various ways, including reading the discussions here and burying myself in Shetlock fanfic till I am too tired to think. Probably not the best strategy but it's the only one I've got.

 

Oh dear. Carol is right, you are expressing yourself perfectly clearly, but it you weren't, I'd fully understand. Half my family is far, far away as well, and it isn't always easy... Must be worse for you, though, since you are used to having them near. Can't really think of anything clever or compassionate to say (not my forte). The only thing that comes to mind is the old Holmesism "be brave", and I am aware that can sound pretty callous in the wrong context...

 

 

Slithytove, I think you expressed your opinions very clearly, and I really cannot disagree with you (even though I prefer to think that Mary simply reacted in a rather knee-jerk fashion to Sherlock disregarding her warning).  The whole thing just makes me dizzy!

 

Well, lets think of this from Mary's point of view. What were her options?

 

- Shoot Magnussen fast before Sherlock has time to react. Problem: Sherlock will in all probability not let that go by. He's already interfered, making it clear that unlike his literary ancestor, he is not willing to silently bear witness to the murder of "a poisonous thing" and then keep mum about it. Sherlock might well call the police and / or his big brother. She would get arrested, and John would find out. Since John and Sherlock broke into the building that night, they could both be implicated in the killing, so John would not only find out, he might also be charged with being involved in the murder she committed. Of course she could have tried to negotiate with Sherlock after Magnussen was dead and point out to him how it would put both himself and John in a difficult position with the authorities if the whole thing came to light. But well, if Sherlock had taken that into consideration, he wouldn't have stepped in, probably, so she might have assumed he was willing to take that risk.

 

- Shoot neither and try to run. Problem: Either Sherlock or Magnussen's security staff would very likely catch her. Then she'd have accomplished nothing and again, John would find out and could get in trouble.

 

- Create a distraction by shooting Sherlock, incapacitating Magnussen, and calling an ambulance to the building. That means her chances of getting away unnoticed are much better, there is at least a slight chance John will not find out and will not be charged with anything serious, and having once demonstrated to the great detective how much in earnest she is, he might just be willing to negotiate future silence once he wakes up, and help her with Magnussen, whom he hates, anyway.

 

What I think is very interesting is how fundamentally they changed Holmes role from the original. While in the story, Holmes witnesses the murder and not only refuses to interfere himself, but also holds Watson back from doing so, in this version, he actively intercedes on Magnussen's behalf - only to find out that in the end, he has to kill him himself.

[Slithytove]

Thank you all for your comments. I'm finding everything very difficult at the moment. Tears every day, I'm afraid, and I'm dreading the end of the week.

 

Anyway.....

 

She could have knocked out CAM and held the gun on Sherlock whilst she negotiated/tried to escape. Yes, he took a step towards her but that doesn't mean he would risk wrestling her for the gun. She could have risked it - wouldn't an assassin be trained in martial arts?

 

The first two options you suggest could be done if she was prepared to give up her new life with John. She could have accepted that her criminal past had caught up with her and it was time to run if she wanted to stay out of jail. John would not have been implicated in murder if there was no murder, and Mycroft would have got them off the breaking and entering charge. Instead, she decided to hold on to John, keeping her husband in ignorance by killing his dearest friend.

 

In reality, of course, she would have killed CAM and Sherlock - and John too, no doubt, if he was a threat. Professional killers share with terrorists a distinct lack of sentiment. They can't afford emotions and I doubt that many try.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And since she does show sentiment, maybe she is not to be seen as the soul deep professional killer. Her full background has yet to be revealed. Amanda has stated that she is already aware of how Mary meets her death. I doubt we will see John and Sherlock will be drinking toasts in celebration. Rather Sherlock dragging John onto a case. Work as an antidote for the pain of loss.

 

 

Then perhaps she does not represent the soul deep professional killer. That she is capable of love and sentiment. She is a human being with all the foibles inherent to us all.

[Carol the Dabbler]

To be really precise, Ms. Abbington didn't actually say that she knew how Mary would die.  She said something to the effect that "we all know what happens to Mary" and "I know how it happens."  But yeah, I assume that's what she meant.  Unless she's been taking Moftiss lessons.

 

[jesskayding]

Oh, so they are gonna kill her off. They sure like making things complicated. Im sure they wouldn't make John a single father. Hmmm, wow... You think they'll just have John use solving crimes instead of dealing with loosing his family?

 

Real life is rarely so neat.

[sherlockandjohn]

Found this interesting little text jpg... which read:

 

Moffat:  We used Mary as the shooter, to not only convey that she was in trouble with Magnussen, but also to show that, in a way, John being married was going to kill Sherlock.

 

Gatiss:  And, if you didn't get it the first time, we showed her again, shooting him in the mind palace.  She was wearing her wedding dress.

 

Can anyone identify if these are real quotes and if so, from what?

 

No idea, but at least that would finally make sense of that part of the mind palace scene for me. I guess I figured they did that for dramatic effect, because Mary married John without John or Sherlock knowing what it would entail. Seeing Mary in her wedding gown, shooting Sherlock, is quite terrifying, and realistic in the sense that when she married John, Sherlock's fate was sealed (that is, he would get shot).

 

I think the idea that John being married would kill Sherlock (I assume we're talking figuratively) is at odds with the portrayal of Sherlock's behavior at the beginning of this episode. Sure, he was somewhat sad in TSoT, but he seemed to be doing fine in HLV, up until getting shot, of course

 

Not that I mind the idea in general. After all, that's what I fell in love with in the first place; this odd, eccentric man who lives by himself, happy to live for his work and his mind, until a fairly ordinary, but resourceful man steps into his life, puts up with his insults, admires his brilliance, and befriends him. And Sherlock becomes dependent on his friendship.

 

But back to the episode. I've stated how I don't feel that it works well from a certain perspective - that everything is sort of swept under the rug, and no one faces the consequences of their actions. There is, however, also the perspective that Sherlock loves John and wants him happy, and he honestly believes that Mary can be trusted, so for John's sake he wants them to reconcile. Then, he wants Mary to be safe, and he goes to Magnussen's place to retrieve any incriminating documentation. He does not imagine having to kill Magnussen in order to achieve his goal, nor does he defend her right to have killed people in the first place. Sherlock simply wants to protect her from a horrible person who exploits people. From that point of view, there's no right or wrong answer - or at least no black-or-white scenario; not on Sherlock's side. On Mary's side, however, it seems that had she not concealed her past from John and Sherlock - had she done as Sherlock suggested and "come to him in the first place" - she could have saved everyone a lot of pain. Yet we don't see her realise that, not really.

 

Still, I love the episode. It's both so interesting and so gripping.

[Arcadia]

I'm sorry Slithytove. My sis and I live on opposite coasts and we hardly ever see each other, it's really hard sometimes. Maybe you'll get to visit your daughter? Then you two can gyre and gimble in the Wisconsin wabe.

 

If we are to assume Sherlock's deductions are correct, then Mary did indeed fail to kill him due to sentiment. (So she opted to seriously injure him instead? Not a sound decision in my book!) So by extension she is not quite the cold-blooded killer we might otherwise be led to believe. If we ever get any of her background, I suspect that will be at least one reason why she tried to give up her former life.

[sherlockandjohn]

What I find interesting is that, unlike John, Sherlock seems to come to terms with the "real" Mary much faster, or rather he comes to terms with that side of her at all. The fact that she nearly killed him and he had to reconsider everything he thought he knew about her doesn't stop him at all from trying to understand her and offering her his help. Just another thing to love him for.

 

:'( Just have to wipe off a few tears now, excuse me. It really is moving what Sherlock does.

 

And yes, it's just one of the many interesting parts of this episode, one of the things that make me reconsider what I thought I knew, not about Mary, but about Sherlock (the show, not the man - although it's certainly an astonishing character for him, but then again, we all knew he had a big heart). I never imagined having to delve so deeply into psychology in order to appreciate any Sherlock episode

[Carol the Dabbler]

Found this interesting little text jpg... which read:

 

Moffat:  We used Mary as the shooter, to not only convey that she was in trouble with Magnussen, but also to show that, in a way, John being married was going to kill Sherlock.

 

Gatiss:  And, if you didn't get it the first time, we showed her again, shooting him in the mind palace.  She was wearing her wedding dress.

 

Can anyone identify if these are real quotes and if so, from what?

 

No idea, but at least that would finally make sense of that part of the mind palace scene for me.

 

I think T.o.b.y has pretty conclusively established that those "quotes" were fake:

 

Because I am nuts, and think way too much about this series, I actually typed various parts of the above mentioned statements into the google search box as quotes, and I got zero hits. So if this is part of a real interview, at least it's not online somewhere - or at least not anywhere where an ignorant person like me can find it.

 

... however that most certainly does not invalidate the internal logic of those statements, nor of your comments in response to them.

 

[jesskayding]

Forgiveness is very powerful. It can motivate change & besides giving your life, there's no other act that shows true love. Withholding forgiveness is the best form of revenge. The unforgiven carries a constant weight that can only be lifted by forgiveness.

 

So cudos to Sherlock.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

Slithytove, I think you expressed your opinions very clearly, and I really cannot disagree with you (even though I prefer to think that Mary simply reacted in a rather knee-jerk fashion to Sherlock disregarding her warning).  The whole thing just makes me dizzy!

 

Well, lets think of this from Mary's point of view. What were her options?

 

- Shoot Magnussen fast before Sherlock has time to react. Problem: Sherlock will in all probability not let that go by. He's already interfered, making it clear that unlike his literary ancestor, he is not willing to silently bear witness to the murder of "a poisonous thing" and then keep mum about it. Sherlock might well call the police and / or his big brother. She would get arrested, and John would find out. Since John and Sherlock broke into the building that night, they could both be implicated in the killing, so John would not only find out, he might also be charged with being involved in the murder she committed. Of course she could have tried to negotiate with Sherlock after Magnussen was dead and point out to him how it would put both himself and John in a difficult position with the authorities if the whole thing came to light. But well, if Sherlock had taken that into consideration, he wouldn't have stepped in, probably, so she might have assumed he was willing to take that risk.

 

- Shoot neither and try to run. Problem: Either Sherlock or Magnussen's security staff would very likely catch her. Then she'd have accomplished nothing and again, John would find out and could get in trouble.

 

- Create a distraction by shooting Sherlock, incapacitating Magnussen, and calling an ambulance to the building. That means her chances of getting away unnoticed are much better, there is at least a slight chance John will not find out and will not be charged with anything serious, and having once demonstrated to the great detective how much in earnest she is, he might just be willing to negotiate future silence once he wakes up, and help her with Magnussen, whom he hates, anyway.

 

What I think is very interesting is how fundamentally they changed Holmes role from the original. While in the story, Holmes witnesses the murder and not only refuses to interfere himself, but also holds Watson back from doing so, in this version, he actively intercedes on Magnussen's behalf - only to find out that in the end, he has to kill him himself.

 

 

Ah, this is so interesting! Okay, so you don't believe Sherlock would have covered for Mary, if she had shot Magnussen? But she had lots of killings on her conscience, and Sherlock proved to be willing to cover up for those. I'm not convinced that he wouldn't have done the same, if she'd shot Magnussen right then and there, but I kind of like the thought (of him not covering up for her - not the thought of her shooting Magnussen, although that's not a bad idea either). If Sherlock is willing to cover up her past but not her present, perhaps he is counting on her not taking up her old "job" again.

 

[sherlockandjohn]

Forgiveness is very powerful. It can motivate change & besides giving your life, there's no other act that shows true love. Withholding forgiveness is the best form of revenge. The unforgiven carries a constant weight that can only be lifted by forgiveness.

 

So cudos to Sherlock.

 

Why isn't there a "love" button when you need it?

[jesskayding]

Thanks SJ. That's sweet.

 

Actually that's a good idea to include a love button. I just end up tying it in a reply to something I love.

[sherlockandjohn]

To be really precise, Ms. Abbington didn't actually say that she knew how Mary would die.  She said something to the effect that "we all know what happens to Mary" and "I know how it happens."  But yeah, I assume that's what she meant.  Unless she's been taking Moftiss lessons.

 

Maybe all the cast has... and the crew. They're all in on Mofftiss' little games.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

On Mary's side, however, it seems that had she not concealed her past from John and Sherlock - had she done as Sherlock suggested and "come to him in the first place" - she could have saved everyone a lot of pain. Yet we don't see her realise that, not really.

 

Maybe she doesn't realize that because she's still not sure that would have been a safe thing for her to do. At least, I can see why she mightn't.  From her pre-shooting perspective, why would she trust Sherlock to keep her secret?  Why should she think that he would side with her, against his best friend?  Even if he was willing to help her, his idea of "help" might not coincide with hers.  And as it turned out, her mistrust was justified.  We saw what Sherlock did when he did learn Mary's secret -- he made absolutely certain that John would find out from her own lips!

 

... so you don't believe Sherlock would have covered for Mary, if she had shot Magnussen? But she had lots of killings on her conscience, and Sherlock proved to be willing to cover up for those. I'm not convinced that he wouldn't have done the same, if she'd shot Magnussen right then and there, but I kind of like the thought (of him not covering up for her - not the thought of her shooting Magnussen, although that's not a bad idea either). If Sherlock is willing to cover up her past but not her present, perhaps he is counting on her not taking up her old "job" again.

 

Yes, he proved willing to maintain that part of her secret, but that proof came after the fact.  Again, why would she assume at the time that he'd be willing to do so?  In her previous existence, Mary has had to live very much by her wits.  She must have learned -- possibly the hard way -- not to trust anyone very far.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Hmmm, wow... You think they'll just have John use solving crimes instead of dealing with loosing his family?

 

  Absolutely not! The crime solving is not to used as a substitute but only a type of hands on therapy. Like John writing journals to help him get over his psychosomatic limp and such. It's to used as a focus so he doesn't fall into a deep despair that he can't crawl out of. Yes, he should....has...to go through the mourning process. But I have personally seen people continue to go to work or in some ways find something to do so that they have something to focus on besides their loss 24/7. They still cry....sigh their deep heavy sighs....it can't be helped. It's something they have to do but neither do they give up on life.

[jesskayding]

I appreciate that it was smart for him to exposed her to John. I feel that it was smart, per his BFF now knows his wife ( well sort of) & he keeps Mary from being able to kill him without anyone suspecting her. That would be a case gone cold.

 

Who killed Sherlock? Don't worry Lestrade & Donavon are on the case!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Fox -- could you try to get into the chat room?  Tim is there now, testing.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

On my way.