Post Your Moriarty Theories (Spoilers)

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

You don't put a gun in your mouth, and pull the trigger, not even one loaded with blanks...because it can...and does...kill you. We have a lot of young actors just fooling around with what they knew were prop guns and died.....the end....kaput.

 

Of course the name of Andrew Scott and the fact that one of Sherlock's middle name is Scott is a merely chance separated by 160 years. No connection what so ever.

 

Caya has posted a screen shot of the dead Jim 'from IT' Moriarty that clearly shows brain matter in the blood. Fact.

 

Then we have the testimony of the star expert witness, Mr. Mark Gatiss. He has iterated that Jim Moriarty could not have survived the shot he took to the head. Suicide, clear and simple. Not a fake.

[Shocked]

I don't say they are gun with blanks, but a gun with nothing into, juste a bluetooth connection (or other) that will joined with a speaker hide on it or on the roof when he will pull the trigger.

For the name OK.

but for the brain matters is simple to create a false part !

And for Gatiss, he had say that in order that fan don't search theories in the serie 2 but for keep that for the serie 3 !

 

And how to explain that he have bump in his back in all scenes on the roof and not in the other scenes before ?

Is not an error, director would see in shooting !

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I don't believe Mr. Gatiss is lying simply for the fact that he has said it too many times, never changing his story, not once. He also said that while Moriarty was a good villain there were others out there just as challenging for Sherlock Holmes. You don't need the same one over and over again.

 

 Yes, I know. Many people would love to see this particular Moriarty to come back. But I'm afraid they are sadly mistaken.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I am intrigued by your theories, Shocked -- lots of interesting details there.  I have not noticed any bump in Moriarty's back, but as I've just said on another thread, I don't always notice details.

 

Now I'm trying to recall precisely what Mark Gatiss said.  If he said, for example, "Moriarty could not have survived a direct shot to the head" then he wouldn't have to be lying, just choosing his words very carefully.  I mean, if Moriarty did not actually take a direct shot to the head, if it was a fake such as Shocked is proposing, then Gatiss's words would tell us absolutely nothing about what did happen.  Does anyone have his exact quote handy?

 

I believe Fox is right about "Scott," though.  That middle name was apparently proposed for Sherlock Holmes many years before Andrew Scott was even born.

 

[Caya]

  

 

  

 

(source)

[Caya]

  

 

(same source, but the board doesn't like six gifs in one post, it seems)

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hmm -- yeah, but that was Moffat! 

[Shocked]

Yes Moffat said that but he is obliged because if he said the contrary it would be weird no ?

Is not because he say he is dead taht it's true... otherwise what is the interest ?

[Caya]

Hmm -- yeah, but that was Moffat! 

 

You're a damn hard woman to please, Carol . Here we go:

 

“He’s dead. He shot himself in the brain stem. Nothing can survive that. The human body can survive the loss of anything else but the brain stem.“

 

From Comic-Con, too, here's the source (no gif this time, sorry!).

 

Bonus Gatiss quote as to why we saw just tiny pieces of brain floating on the pool of blood:

 

[Ruthyone]

I think Moriarty      faked his own death but got injured so he hypnotised Mrs Hudson       and lived at Baker Street whilst he recovered. He was

 

behind CAM's      campaign and when Magnusson died, he waited till Sherlock        was deported then resumed control not knowing Sherlock was recalled.......

[leanne_maybe]

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I don't believe Mr. Gatiss is lying simply for the fact that he has said it too many times, never changing his story, not once. He also said that while Moriarty was a good villain there were others out there just as challenging for Sherlock Holmes. You don't need the same one over and over again.

 

Yes, I know. Many people would love to see this particular Moriarty to come back. But I'm afraid they are sadly mistaken.

'Mistaken' is a bit harsh - 'misled by the writers' more like! They have shown a picture of him saying 'did you miss me?' then the actual character saying the same thing - you can see how the mistake could happen!

[Zain]

Well, usually occam's razor works best.

We know Sherlock spent quite some time on that rooftop. John went to Baker Street, and he returned. That's the time span we're working with. Sure, Sherlock had to go up to the roof and they talked a bit. Even then it leaves a comfortable amount of time to notice that the person who shot himself in front of you is still breathing. And while Sherlock is spectacularly ignorant at times, this is not something he would have missed.

That's why I think it is unlikely the person who shot himself up on that rooftop survived. I am deliberately being unspecific.

 

 

The main question is rather who sent the message.

Depending on that the reason behind the return message changes. And the prospects for season 4.

 

1. Let's say it's another Moriarty relative... is it a challenge for Sherlock (revenge? Or maybe Jim's legacy that he left behind for one last game beyond the grave?), or advertisement that his ( or her?) business is once again taking on clients? If that was the case, the name Moriarty would be more like a brand name than a one-person business. 

 

2. Then it might be a new "villain" who is trying to take over Jim's business. The return message could be advertisement of his services.

 

3. And the last situation I can imagine: the return message also is rather nicely timed to keep Sherlock in England. Two reasons why someone would want just that: They need Sherlock for something (case, leverage on Mycroft, want to take revenge?) or they like him. The return message was rather public and either the perpetrator has got very good connections or is in a position of power.

I doubt Mycroft would have seen off Sherlock if he was behind it. It is a rather emotional statement. Mycroft hates those, especially with witnesses.

While Sherlock is good at faking emotions sometimes, the goodbye seemed rather genuine to me. Season three has somewhat shifted the POV from John to Sherlock. If he was behind it, I think they would have given us some smirk at the least.

 

These are the possibilities I see. Surely there are dozens more. 

 

 

I personally think there will be some twist with a sibling. Mycroft's comment seems somewhat foreshadowing. If they revealed both a Moriarty brother/sister and a Holmes brother/sister within one season, it would be a bit too cliché. Two "secret" siblings is a bit ... not clever. But that's my opinion.

On another note: Apparently the other "Holmes sibling" (if they exists in Sherlock canon) is a bit of a rotten apple. Or was mistaken for one and Mycroft didn't have any mercy with him/her. They more than likely are not on good terms with Mycroft. We had a ploy to get to Mycroft in season three, so it would be a bit repetitive. On the other hand, it was somewhat buffered and wasn't taken to the extreme. They could be playing with that element. Maybe the return message is the third sibling challenging Mycroft/Sherlock. 

 

For now, I find it hard to go with one possibility and dismiss the others. And those are only the ones I can think up that make somewhat sense... God, already looking forward to more information on season 4.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

They have shown a picture of him saying 'did you miss me?' then the actual character saying the same thing - you can see how the mistake could happen!

As I believe someone else has already said somewhere on this forum, the GIF-type picture was clearly part of the episode -- people were shown reacting to it, so it was something that really happened (in the Sherlock universe).  But that GIF could have been faked very easily. The later piece ran, as I recall, after the credits and was not worked into the story -- so maybe it was more of an advertisement or a pre-teaser (in our universe)?  Maybe it was basically Andrew Scott talking to us fans.

 

Well, usually occam's razor works best.

We know Sherlock spent quite some time on that rooftop ... a comfortable amount of time to notice that the person who shot himself in front of you is still breathing....

That's why I think it is unlikely the person who shot himself up on that rooftop survived.

I'm fond of Occam's razor myself, nice to meet a fellow fan! And I think you make a good point here.

 

... the name Moriarty would be more like a brand name than a one-person business.

 

... which reminds me again of this quote from "Study in Pink" (via Ariane DeVere's transcript) which I recently posted on another thread:

 

SHERLOCK: Who’d sponsor a serial killer?

JEFF: Who’d be a fan of Sherlock ’olmes? You’re not the only one to enjoy a good murder. There’s others out there just like you, except you’re just a man ... and they’re so much more than that.

SHERLOCK: What d’you mean, more than a man? An organisation? What?

JEFF: There’s a name no-one says, an’ I’m not gonna say it either. Now, enough chatter.

.

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

Hmm -- yeah, but that was Moffat! 

 

You're a damn hard woman to please, Carol . Here we go:

 

“He’s dead. He shot himself in the brain stem. Nothing can survive that. The human body can survive the loss of anything else but the brain stem.“

 

From Comic-Con, too, here's the source (no gif this time, sorry!).

 

 

Oh, good, I see from your source that that was Gatiss talking (who can be sneaky, but that's a pretty definite statement).  OK, that Moriarty is dead.

 

I'm reasonably certain that Jim "from IT" / "from the swimming pool" / "from Bart's" Moriarty is Moftiss's equivalent of Professor Moriarty from "The Final Problem."  I say this because he's at least good enough with computers to fake his way around, and because he calls his business "Dynamic Asteroid," clearly a nod to one of Prof. Moriarty's writings, "Dynamics of an Asteroid."  (I will concede that the latter evidence comes from Sherlock: The Casebook rather than from the show itself, but presumably the Casebook ideas came from and/or were approved by Moftiss.)

 

The only other canon Moriarty I'm aware of is Colonel Moriarty, presumably more of a military man than a technological type, so presumably someone we have yet to meet.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

In the canon, there is a younger Moriarty...referred to as a "switchman".

 

If I appeared to be harsh in one of my earlier posts, it was never my intention and I do apologize.

[leanne_maybe]

I was only joking with the word 'harsh'- I just meant that the writers were leading people to the conclusion that Moriarty is still alive, so it's not surprising that some people think he is! I think the bit after the credits is quite annoying really - it's quite unnecessary to show if Andrew Scott has no further involvement in the show - it's a tease, but one that will lead nowhere if it isn't the actual Moriarty or a twin (and I don't think it's either)

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I know that Moffat and Gatiss love to tease us, unmercifully. But Sherlock has seen enough dead body parts in all stages to know what's what. And even if Moriarty would risk having decaying brain tissue in blood packets.....eeewww.....one good whiff once the things broke would alert anyone that something was rotten in the state of Denmank.

 

 Especially a forensic scientist like Sherlock.

 

 Plus if Mycroft had people in the area keeping tabs on John's shooter, they could probably keep watch of Moriarty. If Moriarty tried to move once Sherlock fell, they'd be all over him.

 

I would also think a piped in sound effect of a gun shot would sound different then a real one. And Sherlock has sure fired enough guns to know what one sounds like.

[Shocked]

It's sure that Sherlock can recognize a real sound, but when Moriarty shot, Sherlock is surprised and go back so maybe he did not think to "analyse" the sound.

Plus Sherlock don't checks if he's really dead...

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

But as it has been stated, it couldn't have been a fake. Especially the brain matter in the blood. Decaying flesh smells.....I mean....it stinks, to high heaven....no one could have missed that. And Mycroft had people in the area. They had to neutralize John's shooter, so they could see the roof, Moriarty and Sherlock, if Moriarty had tried to get up once Sherlock had jumped, they would have known it and been able to capture him.

[Carol the Dabbler]

In the canon, there is a younger Moriarty...referred to as a "switchman".

 

Do you recall which story he was in -- or was referred to in?

 

It's sure that Sherlock can recognize a real sound, but when Moriarty shot, Sherlock is surprised and go back so maybe he did not think to "analyse" the sound.

Plus Sherlock don't checks if he's really dead...

 

What you say about the sound taking him by surprise is plausible.  But we don't really know whether he checked Moriarty's body or not -- there's a break between that scene and John's arrival, so he could have checked.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

In the story, "The Valley of Fear" which chronologically happens before "The Final Problem" but was published after, Holmes tells Watson that Professor Moriarty has never married and has younger brother who is a station master.....not a switch man.....sorry about that...but anyway. If "The Valley of Fear" was written before "The Final Problem" then this younger brother could have just as easily joined the military and by the time Holmes and Moriarty disappear in Switzerland, could have risen through the ranks as a Colonel to write the letters defaming Holmes to protect the reputation of his elder brother, the Professor.

[Janie]

It's sure that Sherlock can recognize a real sound, but when Moriarty shot, Sherlock is surprised and go back so maybe he did not think to "analyse" the sound.

Plus Sherlock don't checks if he's really dead...

 

Sherlock would have known not only a real sound but also a real gun. He knew the cabbie had a fake gun in Study in Pink so I doubt he wouldn't have noticed one in Moriarty's hand. 

So in my opinion Moriarty is definitely dead.

[Shocked]

But it's maybe a real gun who are mofified !

I think we can never be of the same opinion

[Caya]

At least not until season 4 arrives, no - but it's okay to disagree and speculate .

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

but it's okay to disagree and speculate

 

  That it is. It would be pretty dull around here if we didn't disagree about something.