Sherlock's relationship with women

[sherlockandjohn]

If CAM had been a woman? Yes, I'm guessing he still would have shot her if it meant protecting John and Mary.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, there is an untrodden path for Moftiss to consider -- an actual female villain.  So far, all they've come up with are female characters who aren't as two-dimensionally nice as they were in canon, but are still basically beholden to men.  'Twould be really interesting to see a truly independent female villain on the show.

 

Come to think of it, 'twould be really interesting to see a truly independent female character.

 

[T.o.b.y]

A female villain... You know, I can't remember a single one from canon. Can anybody here? There are so many stories, I'm sure there must have been at least one...

 

I have no problem with the show's treatment of its female characters with the big exception of Mary. And since Mary's story is far from over yet, I do still have a little hope for her left.

 

As for independent, show me a truly independent person on that show. John and Lestrade rely on Sherlock, Sherlock relies on Mycroft, Mycroft is bound by the restraints of the government he represents. Okay, Moriarty was independent, I guess. But his power all seemed to rest on the network of dependents he had built up. Nobody is truly independent of other people, if you ask me, on "Sherlock" or elsewhere.

[Pamela]

How about Mrs. Hudson?

[Meyers]

A female villain... You know, I can't remember a single one from canon. Can anybody here? There are so many stories, I'm sure there must have been at least one...

 

 

This is interesting. We all know Irene was an adversary, but a villain?

 

There are several women in the Canon who are not helpful or are obstructing Holmes from reaching his goal. For example think of the housekeeper in "The Copper Beeches" or even the housekeeper (justified in the end) in "The Hound of the Baskervilles".

 

Good question!

 

 

Meyers

[T.o.b.y]

I really can't think of a single serious female villain in the Doyle stories. There are very few female criminals, I think there's one story where a maid murders her mistress, but they aren't terribly evil. Speaking of evil, though, I just noticed that every "big" villain in the original has a name that begins with "M": Moriarty, Moran, Milverton. Even Holmes remarks on this: "My collection of M’s is a fine one". There is an exception, though: Culverton Smith. I still think they should so something with him on "Sherlock". He has a lot of potential.

 

Oh, speaking of women on "Sherlock": I wondered all the time why they didn't make more of the Moran business, but it just occurred to me that they did: Mary takes the part of the person who tries to assassinate Sherlock! And he even fools her with (what she thinks is) a dummy, like the original with his model made of wax.

[Caya]

In an empty house, yeah.

[T.o.b.y]

Exactly! In an Empty House! You are clever. The script is clever. Really, as an adaptation, it never ceases to amaze me.

[Ruthyone]

Sherlock is dealing with strong women but in Jeremy Brett's 'Sherlock' he is kinder to the 'meeker' type of woman who came to him for help. It was a different era but I think Benedict's 'Sherlock' is more colder towards any women and possibly sees them as equal to men.

[Carol the Dabbler]

How about Mrs. Hudson?

 

Interesting question.  Mrs. Hudson really is kinda sui generis, isn't she?  Seems like a fairly typical sweet little old lady, but --

 

I'm not sure whether to hope they show more of her backstory next time, or hope that they don't!

 

[Ruthyone]

Mrs Hudson owes a lot to Sherlock but I think she can look after herself!

[Carol the Dabbler]

He rescued her from the CIA guys -- but on the other hand, if it hadn't been for Sherlock, they'd never have come to her house in the first place.  Lucky that she's fond of him, otherwise him living upstairs would be a mixed blessing at best!

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Lucky that she's fond of him, otherwise him living upstairs would be a mixed blessing at best!

 

   In the canon it was. At least Dr. John Watson was to write mention something like that in the "Dying Detective" the quote is below.

 

                                "Mrs. Hudson, the landlady of Sherlock Holmes, was a long- suffering woman. Not only was her first-floor flat invaded at all hours by throngs of singular and often undesirable characters but her remarkable lodger showed an eccentricity and irregularity in his life which must have sorely tried her patience. His incredible untidiness, his addiction to music at strange hours, his occasional revolver practice within doors, his weird and often malodorous scientific experiments, and the atmosphere of violence and danger which hung around him made him the very worst tenant in London. On the other hand, his payments were princely. I have no doubt that the house might have been purchased at the price which Holmes paid for his rooms during the years that I was with him."

[T.o.b.y]

Mrs Hudson is great. And what an improvement compared to the original character!

 

In general, I think if you just describe the female roles in "Sherlock" in a few words, they sound horribly cliché and a bit sexist: the motherly landlady, the love-lorn wallflower, the femme fatale, the pregnant wife with a colorful past, the promiscuous secretary - but when you meet them on screen, they are very believable, individual people and somehow seem a lot more real than many carefully constructed paragons of feminist values to me.

[Carol the Dabbler]

True.  They seem organic rather than (as you say) constructed.

 

Sorry for spacing out here, but who is the promiscuous secretary?  Do you perhaps mean Janine?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

but when you meet them on screen, they are very believable, individual people and somehow seem a lot more real than many carefully constructed paragons of feminist values to me.

 

   I think we think of them as being cliche because most literature and tv programs have made them seem that way. But women have always been savvy and smart and in our own way, more then just a little dangerous. Woman have been warriors since the beginning of time. Maybe not all fought on the front lines, thought many did,  but you hear of the spies who used their sexuality to befuddle the enemy and steal state and military secrets.

 

  I think some of the problem is that  a lot of what society would have us think as " feminist values" are by large artificial constructs. It's the way men would like to see all women to be but rarely are nor want to be. I know that there are some women who want nothing more then to sit at home and mind the house and children and tend out to their husbands. But a vast number find it boring, confining and degrading in some ways. They have brains, talents, passions and they want to be able to express them. If they can't find an outlet or support for that in the home, they will go elsewhere.

[Ruthyone]

We have the values of today where women are (in the Western world) allowed to choose their own destinies. In Conan Doyle's day, most women didn't have the choice. You have to combine Doyle's attitude and modern day 'Sherlock' and whether or not, Sherlock has modernised his views.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 Sherlock doesn't seem to have any trouble at all with it. He accepts Mrs. Hudson as she is and loves her despite her being a exotic dancer and a typist for a drug cartel. Once he learns about Mary's past, even after being shot by her, doesn't seem to phase him to much.  Even Doyle, having to labor under England's views "of female social norms" is more progressive then most males of his era. Yes, a lot of his clients governesses, but even some of them show some spunk before coming to Sherlock or even in coming to Baker Street in the first place.

[T.o.b.y]

True.  They seem organic rather than (as you say) constructed.

 

Sorry for spacing out here, but who is the promiscuous secretary?  Do you perhaps mean Janine?

 

Yup, I do. Maybe I'm doing her an injustice, but I am pretty sure that Sherlock was neither the first nor the last man she went to bed with (or, in his case, the bathtub) after a fairly short acquaintance. And her job, attractive PA to a disgusting slime ball, isn't exactly what you hold up as an ideal to your daughters nowadays, is it? Especially since the way she dressed for work does not suggest she was merely hired for her filing skills.

 

I do think, though, that in her own way Janine is one of coolest women on the show. Instead of crying her eyes out for Sherlock, she took her life into her own hands and lost no time to sell her affair with him to the tabloids, make a ton of money and buy real estate. She's even cool enough not to hold a big grudge against him. I love their last scene together. When we were introduced to Janine in The Sign of Three, I took a violent dislike to her, but after I saw out how her story ends in His Last Vow, I just had to respect her. Now there's a girl who is completely her own woman, hm? No wonder Sherlock likes her; she might not be terribly well bred or educated, but she's just the kind of person he wouldn't have to worry about all the time. And she is funny. That's always a big plus.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

If this were real life, I'd say yes, you're doing her an injustice, judging her by how she dresses and assuming that if she's hot for Sherlock then she's obviously a loose woman.  Considering the Moffat connection, however, I suspect you may be right -- in which case she's not a "bad" woman, she's just written that way.

 

Edited to add the quote marks -- I didn't mean to imply disapproval of Janine, I was merely paraphrasing Jessica Rabbit.  Sorry for any confusion!

 

I really like her, though, and did from the start.  As you say, she's funny, and she's definitely got her own style and attitude.

 

[Caya]

Er, even if Janine would be the kind of woman that, as tv tropes puts it, really gets around, how would that make her a bad woman? I think it'd fit her fun-loving personality. She was certainly very open in her body language with Sherlock and she didn't seem to have much of a problem interacting with John dressed only in that shirt either. You go, girl, I'd say .

 

Just to clarify, and if her demeanor's all just show and she was simply putting on a bit of bravado at the hospital when it was clear it was over between them, good on her, too. To quote John, it's all fine. She's become my second favourite female after Molly, actually (I'm a bit weirded out by all the stuff they've been adding to Mrs. Hudson lately). Fun-loving, witty and unafraid.

[T.o.b.y]

Er, even if Janine would be the kind of woman that, as tv tropes puts it, really gets around, how would that make her a bad woman? I think it'd fit her fun-loving personality. She was certainly very open in her body language with Sherlock and she didn't seem to have much of a problem interacting with John dressed only in that shirt either. You go, girl, I'd say .

 

Yeah, me too, definitely! I don't think it would make her bad at all, but it's another classic female stereotype, that's all I was trying to say. I was talking about how the women on "Sherlock", when described briefly, sound terribly cliché but when you meet them in action are more like real people than some where the author seems to have tried a lot harder.

 

[Pawse]

I don't know that man's ever fallen unloved, but That Woman certainly got right under his skin...

 

My own thought, though unfounded, was always that That Woman was his unrequited love, or that she broke his heart, that he never got over her, and that's why he seemed to have a picture of her.

[Rosiejulia]

I think Molly is good enough for sherlock but I dont think they will ever get together, and anyway Sherlock would'nt be right if he had a girlfreind.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think a lot of people agree with you, Rosiejulia. Nope, it wouldn't be the same Sherlock Holmes we all know and love if he was given any kind of love interest.