Sherlock's relationship with women

[Riddle]

T.o.b.y: I agree with you mostly, I may have come across as a bit harsh towards Molly, in truth I really like her a lot. I agree that she is more than a fangirl towards the end but I do think that her infatuation with Sherlock is still intact and that she'll have a hard time with other relationships because she sees him as the ideal.

 

When I say she wants Sherlock only nicer etc. I didn't mean she wants him to be someone he's not, she loves him as he is. But for a romantic relationship, she'd need the added extras. She may love him as he is but of course she wants him to feel the same way about her, which he clearly doesn't. This is all I meant by my comment, not that she wants him to be someone he's not, but that ideally, he would have different feelings towards her. And in a relationship I don't think she'd be too happy if she's treated with indifference or insensitivity, which is why this is would be a terrible match. I can't see Sherlock being the most attentive of boyfriends.

 

I love the way their friendship has developed and I agree with you about the 'What do you need?' scene. It's really shows her as a genuine friend to him and that she has more than just romantic feelings for him. I hope the writers keep to this line of their relationship because it's more interesting and beautiful than them getting off with each other.

 

Baker Street Irregular: Or that Tom was only a physical stand-in for Sherlock and not even close to what she really wants. He came across as a bit of an idiot, which Molly wouldn't enjoy for long. I still think she has a type and unfortunately, that type isn't really a relationship kinda guy. 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I still think she has a type and unfortunately, that type isn't really a relationship kinda guy. 

 

  I was kind of basing that observation on the scene in "The Empty Hearse" in which Molly is asking Sherlock what that whole day was about. At the end, when Sherlock turns away and is walking out the door, she says something "maybe I do have a type" or something along those lines, and she sounds rather disgusted. Maybe with herself and realizing that and that was part of the start of the end of her and Tom.

[shoot999]

I'll go with what Benedict says about a possible future Sherlock/Molly relationship. 'There's always a chance'. Don't think it will ever happen show wise because it would spoil the dynamics within the programme; and can't see it happening in Sherlock world, because he would never put Molly in that position. She would be in too much danger from his enemies.

I think the possibility that there's 'always a chance'; however remote, is what makes their scenes together so moving and electric.

[Caya]

Apparently Irene isn't quite out of the picture yet, either, at least according to Arwel at this weekend's con:

 

 

(source)

[shoot999]

Apparently Irene isn't quite out of the picture yet, either, at least according to Arwel at this weekend's con:

 

 

(source)

 

Think The Woman has got some competition (taken today)

 

http://t.co/SJxS80FCIp

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Arwel used references to existing fan theories on how Sherlock survived on Anderson's crime wall!

 

   Yup, they're listening for sure.

[Ruthyone]

                          V                                                                ?

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I want to hear more about that beyond-the-scenes book!

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

So don't I.

[Ruthyone]

Sherlock with women

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Actually, it's Sherlock with laptops and linked up with these women.

[Ruthyone]

Actually, it's Sherlock with laptops and linked up with these women.

 

Yes, very clever how they did it too!   The way he got to the correct girl. 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

A very clever man indeed is our Sherlock.

[Ruthyone]

                                       Steven Moffat Talks BBC Sherlock‘s “Female Perspective”

 

 

 

 

We had our own little open discussion thread the day after the Sherlock season three finale aired in the US, but I would like to formally invite all our readers to hash out their thoughts on Sherlock‘s most recent season here, too. Something tells me the subject of these quotes from Steven Moffat—the importance of the show’s “female perspective”—will inspire some strong opinions.

SPOILERS are behind the jump and in the comments. Also: I want to make completely clear that the article you’re about to read isn’t exactly favorable of Moffat. If you’re one of those people who doesn’t like to read negative opinions of him and writes comments like “Why does everyone on this site hate Moffat?! If you don’t like the show, don’t watch it!” (yes, there are a few), I invite you not to read further.

 

“One of the interesting things about Sherlock, as a show,” said Moffat in an interview with Collider, “is that we want to stick very close to the style and approach of the original stories, but the one big problem is that there are no women, and what women do turn up are not that great. They’re a bit boring. Not all of them, but most of them are not very interesting.” He goes on to single out Molly Hooper, who wasn’t in Arthur Conan Doyle‘s original stories at all, and landlady Mrs. Hudson, who “doesn’t really speak in the original.”

(I would like to take a moment to point out that another thing that’s changed since Victorian London is that it’s generally viewed as less acceptable now to, saaaaay, set a show in the very diverse city of London and give that show practically no diversity. Hell, even the bit players in Sherlock are overwhelmingly white. Just wanted to point that out, if Moffat’s going on about how progressive he’s made Sherlock. Moving on…)

“The thing that’s occurred to me recently,” continues (Grand) Moff (Tarkin):

So the purpose of the “female perspective” on this show, the reason it’s so “brilliant,” is that it gives us an entirely new group of people to appreciate Sherlock’s magnificence in a different way than the men on the show do. Because of course everything on Sherlock is about how great and wonderful Sherlock is, how even though he’s a complete asshole who does horrible things and whom you would slap if you knew in real life. Everyone still loves him because they “get” what a magnificent special snowflake he is. Characters are not there to be themselves. They are there to be Sherlock Holmes’ fan club.

“is that what is consistently true of all the women who meet Sherlock Holmes is that they see through him much faster. John [Watson] is still pretty much enthralled with the act. All the women he meets decode him so fast. Mrs. Hudson just thinks he’s a spoiled brat, who she quite likes. Irene [Adler] gets it totally. She can close him down with a smile, and she gets that. Molly, initially, was awestruck, but so quickly got what he is. So, bringing the female perspective onto Sherlock is brilliant, I think. It works so well. And Mary is such a good example of it.”

But hey, that’s the show. That’s why I didn’t watch the last two episodes of season three: After watching The Empty Hearse I’m going to need some time (a lot of time) to detox from the smugness. Perhaps the length of the whole hiatus, however long that ends up being. By the by, Amanda Abbington, who plays Mary Morstan, has confirmed that she will be on the other side of that hiatus: “I am coming back. We don’t know storylines yet. Well, we do know some things but aren’t allowed to say. What we do know is amazing.”

In the interview Moffat also had some things to say about Mary, John Watson’s wife-with-a-dark-past. “The reason you didn’t spot it is because you liked her,” he explains:

 

“We put the audience in the position of Sherlock Holmes.  All the evidence is absolutely under your nose.  It’s all there.  She’s far too calm under pressure.  No human being would be like that.  She immediately likes Sherlock Holmes, which is the sure sign of a maniac.  But all the audience is thinking is, “Well, thank god, she’s not a drag.  Thank god, she’s fun,” instead of thinking, “What sort of person is that?  That’s not a nurse.  She’s something other than a nurse.”  So, when she turns around and points a gun at Sherlock, it’s the two things you really want.  It’s a surprise, but you also think, “I should have seen that!  Of course!  She had to be!”

[T.o.b.y]

 

“We put the audience in the position of Sherlock Holmes.  All the evidence is absolutely under your nose.  It’s all there.  She’s far too calm under pressure.  No human being would be like that.  She immediately likes Sherlock Holmes, which is the sure sign of a maniac.  But all the audience is thinking is, “Well, thank god, she’s not a drag.  Thank god, she’s fun,” instead of thinking, “What sort of person is that?  That’s not a nurse.  She’s something other than a nurse.”  So, when she turns around and points a gun at Sherlock, it’s the two things you really want.  It’s a surprise, but you also think, “I should have seen that!  Of course!  She had to be!”

 

 

Okay. No. First of all, a nurse would be just the person to stay calm under pressure, at least if she had any kind of job experience. John wasn't kidding when he listed "Bart's bloody hospital" as one of the places he was a veteran of. So that argument can go right down the drain as far as I am concerned.

Secondly, if liking Sherlock is the sure sign of a maniac, then Mrs Hudson and Molly and Lestrade fit that description as well and we can "look forward" to similar "revelations" about them, I suppose. Plus I am obviously a maniac as well, because I immediately liked Sherlock too (and I swear I'd like him in real life as well - if he could exist the way he is, which he couldn't). I do not have a gun in my closet, though, nor does my private life have anything to do with riding crops and sedatives.

Thirdly, Mr M. can speak for himself, please. "All the audience" was quite obviously not thinking what he states there, because when you go through this forum alone, there are plenty who never liked Mary and plenty more who saw some sort of revelation coming way before series 3 ever aired. And the clues Sherlock missed were diligently picked up by a lot of viewers.

 

[Ruthyone]

It depends on the way in which Sherlock sees his 'women' - we see them as we want to see them but Sherlock sees them through his own eyes.

 

I like the thought of Mrs Hudson becoming manic at 221b Baker Street - could be pretty interesting!!!

 

 

[Arcadia]

I guess I'm either too dumb or too old, but I'm not offended by Moffat. He's a guy, with a big success and a big ego to match. Guys like that are all around me every day, I'm used to them. They love to bulls**t, they don't mean half of what they say. I don't take them seriously, and they respect me for that. In their own weird, dim-witted way.... :S

 

I would prefer if the whole show became more careful with the terms "psychopath," "maniac," "sociopath". I assume they're meant to be droll synonyms for "idiosyncratic," and there was a time (now known as childhood :-) when that was not objectionable. But with so many true psychopaths popping up and popping off in schoolyards these days, I can see why some people aren't laughing.

[T.o.b.y]

I would prefer if the whole show became more careful with the terms "psychopath," "maniac," "sociopath". I assume they're meant to be droll synonyms for "idiosyncratic," and there was a time (now known as childhood :-) when that was not objectionable. But with so many true psychopaths popping up and popping off in schoolyards these days, I can see why some people aren't laughing.

 

I assume the same. "Sherlock" has its own vocabulary, which is fine with me. I have no idea what a "true psychopath" would be, anyway - it's not an official diagnosis, as far as I know and I'm not sure whether there's any hard definition.

 

It just sounds so much cooler when Sherlock refers to himself as a "highly functioning sociopath" than if he would say "I am highly idiosyncratic". Carefulness with words does not often help fiction's entertainment value...

[Ruthyone]

I think there's 'psychopaths' and 'psychopaths' - and you, as said above, don't take it to heart,  just enjoy the show

[Arcadia]

 

I would prefer if the whole show became more careful with the terms "psychopath," "maniac," "sociopath". I assume they're meant to be droll synonyms for "idiosyncratic," and there was a time (now known as childhood :-) when that was not objectionable. But with so many true psychopaths popping up and popping off in schoolyards these days, I can see why some people aren't laughing.

 

I assume the same. "Sherlock" has its own vocabulary, which is fine with me. I have no idea what a "true psychopath" would be, anyway - it's not an official diagnosis, as far as I know and I'm not sure whether there's any hard definition.

 

It just sounds so much cooler when Sherlock refers to himself as a "highly functioning sociopath" than if he would say "I am highly idiosyncratic". Carefulness with words does not often help fiction's entertainment value...

 

 

"I'm quirky, and I have your number." You're right, that doesn't sound intimidating at all!

 

It's good to remember that it's a show about boys, written by boys. Sometimes I think the inspiration for Sherlock is not Arthur Conan Doyle but Steven Spielberg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5xjvls7vSo

 

[Ruthyone]

Steven Moffat writes for Doctor Who, so science fiction is in his blood. In a way, it's about 'action heroes and the bad guys getting caught' but 'Sherlock' has some sort of magic.

 

There's always strong women, both in Doctor Who and Sherlock, .........and the actresses used are so varied.

[Meyers]

What does Doyle say:

 

"To Sherlock Holmes she is always THE woman. I have seldom heard him mention her under any other name. In his eyes she eclipses and predominates the whole of her sex. It was not that he felt any emotion akin to love for Irene Adler. All emotions, and that one particularly, were abhorrent to his cold, precise but admirably balanced mind. He was, I take it, the most perfect reasoning and observing machine that the world has seen, but as a lover he would have placed himself in a false position. He never spoke of the softer passions, save with a gibe and a sneer. They were admirable things for the observer--excellent for drawing the veil from men's motives and actions. But for the trained teasoner to admit such intrusions into his own delicate and finely adjusted temperament was to introduce a distracting factor which might throw a doubt upon all his mental results. Grit in a sensitive instrument, or a crack in one of his own high-power lenses, would not be more disturbing than a strong emotion in a nature such as his. And yet there was but one woman to him, and that woman was the late Irene Adler, of dubious and questionable memory."

 

 

Meyers

[Ruthyone]

I think in 'Doyle's world' men had to keep a stiff upper lip where women were concerned and not be emotional.

 

http://io9.com/5972417/why-cant-any-recent-sherlock-holmes-adaptation-get-irene-adler-right

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

That may be true, but I certainly like "Sherlock" interpretation of Irene then "Elementary".....I mean really....Irene Adler as Moriarty?  Some people probably liked it, I didn't much.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

...

 

His attraction to Irene is interesting and in character, but it could never go beyond that playful intrigue and be believable, for either of them. They both understand love, romance, sexual chemistry etc. and can use this understanding to get what they want. But this understanding and knowledge of the other's understanding wouldn't make for a very healthy relationship. It would be a constant battle and power games or they'd get bored very quickly. Some people just aren't made for romantic relationships and I don't think either of these two are.

 

... Molly is a sweet girl, she wants a nice relationship where they'll do 'normal' things like watch telly and go to the pub. She's an intelligent person and is attracted to Sherlock's mind which I really like about her, but she could never be comfortable in a relationship with someone like that, she's a tad too needy and gives too much. She wants Sherlock but nicer, Sherlock but infatuated with her they way she is with him...

 

I like how Sherlock has come to have real affection for Molly and see her as more than just the girl with the crush on him. But I see this affection as the same he has for John, Lestrade, Mrs Hudson and Mary. No romantic feelings, just respect and affection that they deserve because they're decent people who show him the same (yes, I do think Mary deserves it, sorry). This is what is so wonderful about his character, his love for people is based on what they really are and not affected by some romantic infatuation or any other nonsense that clouds the judgement.

 

You raise some very interesting points here.

 

I'm excited about your take on the Sherlock-Irene relationship. I think you're completely right; it would be a power struggle between them, games and manipulation and desire (if Sherlock should ever give in to such a thing).

 

Molly - I agree that she loves Sherlock the way he is, but if they were to be in a romantic relationship, it is unlikely that she would be happy with his lack of sensitivity. And, of course, it is unlikely in the first place that he would fall for her. She doesn't come across as challenging enough to stir any romantic or sexual feeling in Sherlock; she's too sweet for him.

 

Mary... oh dear... I understand why you feel she deserves Sherlock's affection. I even to some extent agree. She definitely likes him, respects him... However, her character in HLV just doesn't appeal to me. She comes across to me as (very) arrogant and somewhat self-serving. She defends her own actions, even says "People like Magnussen should be killed; that's why there are people like me." That seems a bold statement, and I personally cannot agree that she has the right to take any life... even of one as vile as Magnussen. I can't help it, but when she hugs Sherlock at the airport in HLV, I cringe. I really want to like her (mostly for my own sake, as I think she's staying in the show for some time yet), but I can't entirely. I know, I know; Sherlock is arrogant too - but he also has amazing qualities. Hopefully, in series 4 we will see that Mary does as well.

 

Finally, I also think you are right about Sherlock seeing people for who they really are, without romantic notions. He does not romanticise people, which makes his feelings toward others seem very real and deep.