Favorite Scenes -- open ended

[Arcadia]

Do you feel it, guys? Feel the hatred. Feel the jealousy.

This is exactly what I mean when I say series 3 courts a romantic interpretation. Sure, you can write this off as John already realizing that Sherlock is only manipulating Janine into letting them in, and that what we see in that picture is pure shock at his friend's callousness, but it is incredibly easy to reach a different conclusion. (Emphasis mine.)

Wow. I must need new glasses. While I agree with you in many of the S3 scenes, a romantic interpretation never occurred to me in the Janine scenes. Perplexity, astonishment, even some amusement, but jealousy or romantic feelings? Heck no. Do you think our reactions can be explained by our Myers-Briggs types?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Could be!

 

Apparently we INTPs see John as merely boggled by the idea of Sherlock with a girlfriend.

 

[T.o.b.y]

Wow. I must need new glasses. While I agree with you in many of the S3 scenes, a romantic interpretation never occurred to me in the Janine scenes. Perplexity, astonishment, even some amusement, but jealousy or romantic feelings? Heck no. Do you think our reactions can be explained by our Myers-Briggs types?

 

Maybe... Or maybe it's just personal experience. I have all my life been close to people who do not voice their emotions directly, so I've probably become oversensitive in picking up clues to potential feelings or inner conflicts, and I know I tend to ludicrously over-interpret poor defenseless fictional people, who are actually much simpler than real ones, but tell my brain that...

 

While I basically agree that what was intended in those scenes is probably just perplexity, astonishment and amusement (and later being horrified at how far Sherlock is willing to go to gain his end), look at it this way to understand other interpretations: If you wanted to imply that John was jealous, how would you write and direct those scenes? I wouldn't do them much differently.

 

Remember "what life, I've been away"? John's reaction to Janine and the missing chair reminds me of Sherlock's assumption that John will be right where he left him after his two year absence. John was not at all surprised to find Sherlock a mess in a drug den - angry, but not surprised. Sherlock was supposed to go into some kind of sulk after the wedding. That was expected. He was not, however, supposed to erase traces of John from the flat and find himself a vulgar chatty love affair who, of all people, claims to be the only who knows what Sherlock is really like.

 

Part of John is happy for Sherlock, though, I think. His rational side definitely applauds Sherlock Holmes getting a bit of a normal life. But it's just too normal to be true. Something is wrong - and it soon turns out John's instinct was right there.

[Arcadia]

Mmm, I don't know, if I wanted to imply John was jealous, I wouldn't have had him look anywhere but at them when Sherlock and Janine kissed, I would've had him glaring at the couple and making snarky remarks about Janine after she left. I wouldn't have John looking amused, but instead looking rather hurt and angry.

 

That's not to say you're not correct, however. I will be the first to admit that I am not good at picking up subtle clues, esp. where emotions are concerned. If it's not direct, I'm likely to miss it. But John's amusement seems fairly direct to me, and indicates what your last sentence says ... he knows something is off. But not jealousy. But that's not an emotion I'm overly familiar with (thank goodness, it's so corrosive), so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing some clues to it!

[jesskayding]

 

Do you feel it, guys? Feel the hatred. Feel the jealousy.

This is exactly what I mean when I say series 3 courts a romantic interpretation. Sure, you can write this off as John already realizing that Sherlock is only manipulating Janine into letting them in, and that what we see in that picture is pure shock at his friend's callousness, but it is incredibly easy to reach a different conclusion. (Emphasis mine.)

Wow. I must need new glasses. While I agree with you in many of the S3 scenes, a romantic interpretation never occurred to me in the Janine scenes. Perplexity, astonishment, even some amusement, but jealousy or romantic feelings? Heck no. Do you think our reactions can be explained by our Myers-Briggs types?

 

Yeah I agree with you Arcadia.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Could be!

 

Apparently we INTPs see John as merely boggled by the idea of Sherlock with a girlfriend.

 

Well, I'm an INFP. Maybe it's the whole F (feeling) part that makes the whole difference.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Mmm, I don't know, if I wanted to imply John was jealous, I wouldn't have had him look anywhere but at them when Sherlock and Janine kissed, I would've had him glaring at the couple and making snarky remarks about Janine after she left. I wouldn't have John looking amused, but instead looking rather hurt and angry.

 

That's not to say you're not correct, however. I will be the first to admit that I am not good at picking up subtle clues, esp. where emotions are concerned. If it's not direct, I'm likely to miss it. But John's amusement seems fairly direct to me, and indicates what your last sentence says ... he knows something is off. But not jealousy. But that's not an emotion I'm overly familiar with (thank goodness, it's so corrosive), so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing some clues to it!

 

I always thought of John's amused face (the second pic in my Jealous!John post, right?) to be too forced to be amused. It's the big eyes that convey deep jealousy. Like he's trying not to show that he's shocked, angry, jealous, etc by smiling.

[Arcadia]

Could be, I s'pose. I just don't see it, but trust me, that doesn't mean much coming from me.

 

*Corrected cuz it didn't make sense with that really lame typo.............*

[sfmpco]

I never saw any jealously in John's reactions to Janine... shock, yes, because Sherlock being involved with someone - ANYONE - is totally out of character of the man John knows...especially with the PDAs.  The priceless look on John's face when Janine kisses Sherlock is to me like, "I don't even know where to begin with WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!!!"  He tries desperately to wrap his brain around something that doesn't make any sense only a few moments later, but I don't see jealousy at all.  I see his brain on TILT!!!  Quite frankly, if Sherlock was genuinely involved with someone, I think John would be very happy for him.  John really would like nothing more than Sherlock's happiness.

 

I also don't see the jealous thing with Irene.  I barely even see the competition thing that Moffat and Gatiss spoke of in the commentary.  But I do see John sitting on the couch trying to worm his way into this very interesting scenario, trying to engage Irene in conversation, and I see Sherlock tripping over his words for a second... why?  Because John has moved into his territory and the two alpha males are now in competition for the alpha female?  I don't know.  To me it seemed like Sherlock was all business here although he did check her out physically enough to know her measurements.  

 

I just never see John as jealous.  In fact, I see John often as someone who is close to the brink of not being able to tolerate one more drop of Sherlock's personality/game playing/abuses.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

While I basically agree that what was intended in those scenes is probably just perplexity, astonishment and amusement (and later being horrified at how far Sherlock is willing to go to gain his end), look at it this way to understand other interpretations: If you wanted to imply that John was jealous, how would you write and direct those scenes? I wouldn't do them much differently.

 

Remember "what life, I've been away"? John's reaction to Janine and the missing chair reminds me of Sherlock's assumption that John will be right where he left him after his two year absence. John was not at all surprised to find Sherlock a mess in a drug den - angry, but not surprised. Sherlock was supposed to go into some kind of sulk after the wedding. That was expected. He was not, however, supposed to erase traces of John from the flat and find himself a vulgar chatty love affair who, of all people, claims to be the only who knows what Sherlock is really like.

OK, I can believe that John felt like his friendship with Sherlock might be in jeopardy -- hmm, wonder if Sherlock was not only getting cozy with Magnussen's PA, but also getting even with John? At any rate, it's not only lovers who can feel jealous, friends can too. 

 

I never saw any jealously in John's reactions to Janine... shock, yes, because Sherlock being involved with someone - ANYONE - is totally out of character of the man John knows...especially with the PDAs.  The priceless look on John's face when Janine kisses Sherlock is to me like, "I don't even know where to begin with WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!!!"  He tries desperately to wrap his brain around something that doesn't make any sense only a few moments later, but I don't see jealousy at all.  I see his brain on TILT!!!

Thanks for that description! Yes, that's exactly what I see.

 

I also don't see the jealous thing with Irene.  I barely even see the competition thing that Moffat and Gatiss spoke of in the commentary.  But I do see John sitting on the couch trying to worm his way into this very interesting scenario, trying to engage Irene in conversation, and I see Sherlock tripping over his words for a second... why?  Because John has moved into his territory and the two alpha males are now in competition for the alpha female?  I don't know.  To me it seemed like Sherlock was all business here although he did check her out physically enough to know her measurements.

I think what I'm seeing in that scene is 1) John reacts (in his usual way) to a pretty woman, 2) the woman flirts back, and 3) Sherlock tries to compete for her attention, but he's so accustomed to being the center of everyone's attention that he fumbles.

[Arcadia]

I think that describes my thoughts too. Possibly because I'm pretty sure I was making exactly the same faces John was making during the Janine scenes! But I see how it could be interpreted differently. Just one more gray area in HLV; heck, what else should we expect?

 

I never thought of John being competitive around Irene, either; but I thought Sherlock was. He always wants to be the most noticeable one in the room!

[Caya]

 

OK, I can believe that John felt like his friendship with Sherlock might be in jeopardy -- hmm, wonder if Sherlock was not only getting cozy with Magnussen's PA, but also getting even with John? At any rate, it's not only lovers who can feel jealous, friends can too.

 

Definitely. Also, haven't we all been there, in a way? A dear friend has fallen in love, and even though we're sorry that this means we'll be seeing less of them in the near future, we're ready to cheer the new couple on - until we first meet the other half of the equation.

 

And then the brain goes - you're in love with this?!

 

Love isn't rational, and it's not always easy to understand a friend's decision/impulse to pair up with a particular person. And since Janine was Mary's bridesmaid, John must've known her and her basic personality. No wonder he was staring like that.

[T.o.b.y]

I never saw any jealously in John's reactions to Janine... shock, yes, because Sherlock being involved with someone - ANYONE - is totally out of character of the man John knows...especially with the PDAs.  The priceless look on John's face when Janine kisses Sherlock is to me like, "I don't even know where to begin with WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!!!"  He tries desperately to wrap his brain around something that doesn't make any sense only a few moments later, but I don't see jealousy at all.  I see his brain on TILT!!!  Quite frankly, if Sherlock was genuinely involved with someone, I think John would be very happy for him.

 

Mhm, yeah, I think so too. I can't imagine, for example, that the scene would have played out the way it did if Molly had emerged from Sherlock's bedroom, for example.

 

The reaction you describe above for John would certainly have been mine to a T if I had not known perfectly well where the Janine thing was headed due to my familiarity with the original story.

 

I mean, I basically agree with you, I'm just saying I can totally see where other interpretations come from, and I also maintain that by series 3, the show is deliberately allowing for those. It's as far as they'll go to satisfy popular demand, I think, but I am convinced that it's not accidental.

[sfmpco]

Interesting that Jonathan Aris was at the recent awards ceremony  where BC won best actor... makes me think Anderson is coming back for S4.  

[Arcadia]

I mean, I basically agree with you, I'm just saying I can totally see where other interpretations come from, and I also maintain that by series 3, the show is deliberately allowing for those. It's as far as they'll go to satisfy popular demand, I think, but I am convinced that it's not accidental.

I don't think it's accidental either; what confuses me is why they claim we're seeing something that isn't there. Of course it's there. (Although I still don't see it in this particular scene.) They practically dare you to miss it when Sherlock looks at John's empty chair, for instance. I'm just not sure why they're still playing this game if they're going to deny it exists. Very odd.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Interesting that Jonathan Aris was at the recent awards ceremony  where BC won best actor... makes me think Anderson is coming back for S4.  

 

 

Hey, I hope so!  Looks like he's keeping his beard at the ready.

 

[jesskayding]

I see no jealousy, just awkward surprise.

[T.o.b.y]

 

I mean, I basically agree with you, I'm just saying I can totally see where other interpretations come from, and I also maintain that by series 3, the show is deliberately allowing for those. It's as far as they'll go to satisfy popular demand, I think, but I am convinced that it's not accidental.

I don't think it's accidental either; what confuses me is why they claim we're seeing something that isn't there. Of course it's there. (Although I still don't see it in this particular scene.) They practically dare you to miss it when Sherlock looks at John's empty chair, for instance. I'm just not sure why they're still playing this game if they're going to deny it exists.

 

Because it sells! Seriously, that's my theory. They must know full well that there is a large portion of the audience who is pretty set on this particular love story, and while they don't want to make it real, they don't want to lose viewers, either. So they make the episodes as slashy as is possible within the confines of ambiguity and then deny everything when asked directly.

 

For some reason, I don't mind, though. After a lot of initial protesting and snorting and huffing, I've come to kind of like the game. And there are real friendships where "something more" lurks around the corner eternally, without ever being spoken or openly acknowledged in any way. I can relate to that kind of relationship.

[jesskayding]

I don't think the writers could care less about viewer ship. They have said over & over again that Sherlock is their hobby. They totally didn't expect this amount of fandom/viewer ship. So I think what they are doing, is genuinely for their satisfaction not ours. Our excitement, appreciation & even our criticisms are a bonus.

[Arcadia]

Okay, the P in me just jumped on and strangled the NT in me! (Translation: I still don't know what to think!!) Toby's post made perfect sense to me, and I thought, yeh, of course, and then I read Jesskay's, and it also makes perfect sense to me, and now my brain is crying feebly in a dark corner. Mofffftisssssss!!!!!!!!!!!! (insert head banging icon here.)

[Caya]

 

Because it sells! Seriously, that's my theory. They must know full well that there is a large portion of the audience who is pretty set on this particular love story, and while they don't want to make it real, they don't want to lose viewers, either. So they make the episodes as slashy as is possible within the confines of ambiguity and then deny everything when asked directly.

 

For some reason, I don't mind, though. After a lot of initial protesting and snorting and huffing, I've come to kind of like the game. And there are real friendships where "something more" lurks around the corner eternally, without ever being spoken or openly acknowledged in any way. I can relate to that kind of relationship.

 

That kind of subtext interaction between Sherlock and John has been going on since Series 1, though, and they didn't know about their audience then yet, or even if there was going to be much of one.

 

Seriously, fun experiment: find a person who hasn't heard about this show yet, without any idea about it (our British board members are excused from this exercise, because I understand this might be difficult ). Then show them some Series 1 gifs, say:

 

 

 

 

and let them guess what this show is about. You're probably going to get some interesting answers .

 

Note: that's not saying that Johnlock is the only valid interpretation. It's like taking a twentysomething who wasn't yet born in the Eighties and letting them guess what Miami Vice was about:

 

 

Yeah, cop show, obvious isn't it? Some stuff you just have to know the context of. But still, the subtext is strong in Sherlock and has been from day 1.

[Arcadia]

Miami Vice!

[jesskayding]

 

 

 

Because it sells! Seriously, that's my theory. They must know full well that there is a large portion of the audience who is pretty set on this particular love story, and while they don't want to make it real, they don't want to lose viewers, either. So they make the episodes as slashy as is possible within the confines of ambiguity and then deny everything when asked directly.

 

For some reason, I don't mind, though. After a lot of initial protesting and snorting and huffing, I've come to kind of like the game. And there are real friendships where "something more" lurks around the corner eternally, without ever being spoken or openly acknowledged in any way. I can relate to that kind of relationship.

That kind of subtext interaction between Sherlock and John has been going on since Series 1, though, and they didn't know about their audience then yet, or even if there was going to be much of one.

 

Seriously, fun experiment: find a person who hasn't heard about this show yet, without any idea about it (our British board members are excused from this exercise, because I understand this might be difficult ). Then show them some Series 1 gifs, say:

 

 

 

 

and let them guess what this show is about. You're probably going to get some interesting answers .

 

Note: that's not saying that Johnlock is the only valid interpretation. It's like taking a twentysomething who wasn't yet born in the Eighties and letting them guess what Miami Vice was about:

 

 

Yeah, cop show, obvious isn't it? Some stuff you just have to know the context of. But still, the subtext is strong in Sherlock and has been from day 1.

 

 

Caya, thank so much for posting Miami Vice. The man to our right takes me down memory lane. He was called "Sticks" in a movie called 'Sparkle', back in the late 70's.

 

Awesome Romantic Drama:

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't think the writers could care less about viewer ship. They have said over & over again that Sherlock is their hobby. They totally didn't expect this amount of fandom/viewer ship. So I think what they are doing, is genuinely for their satisfaction not ours. Our excitement, appreciation & even our criticisms are a bonus.

 

Although I think you're probably right that the writers don't actually "borrow" (much) from fan fiction or Tumblr posts, I do believe that they like to tease us -- and to do that so successfully, they would have to be at least generally aware of what's out there.  So no, I don't think they pay attention to specific fan works, just to what themes are popular.

[jesskayding]

 

 

I don't think the writers could care less about viewer ship. They have said over & over again that Sherlock is their hobby. They totally didn't expect this amount of fandom/viewer ship. So I think what they are doing, is genuinely for their satisfaction not ours. Our excitement, appreciation & even our criticisms are a bonus.

Although I think you're probably right that the writers don't actually "borrow" (much) from fan fiction or Tumblr posts, I do believe that they like to tease us -- and to do that so successfully, they would have to be at least generally aware of what's out there. So no, I don't think they pay attention to specific fan works, just to what themes are popular.

 

 

I agree with you. But even all of that is strictly for their enjoyment. If we gain happiness from their use of tweets & fandom, great! We get to be apart of their hobby/Sherlock project. We are along for the ride. We get to "virtually" join them on their Sherlock & Dr. Who train ride discussions & ideas. Then we get to participate in the finalization of those ideas.