How would you fix "His Last Vow"?

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

If you're willing to amend that to "disregard for his emotional and physical well-being," then I will agree with you. Even though Sherlock doesn't actively intend to harm John, the poor fellow could have ended up in bad shape on several occasions, due to Sherlock's cavalier attitude. I guess this is one situation where the Golden Rule is simply not adequate -- Sherlock really does do unto John as he does unto himself! (And yes, I realize I'm misquoting the Rule a bit there, though not misinterpreting the spirit of it, I think.)

 

 

 

 

 

Yes you got the spirit of the Bible verse as it states Do unto others as you would have them do unto you (or in Sherlock's case do unto others as you would do unto yourself).

[T.o.b.y]

I love that -- I love that Sherlock and Mary have increasingly been two peas in a pod, starting with them conferring about how much weight John has gained (a nice little lift from ACD canon).  

 

Hm. I don't love that, to be honest. The idea that Sherlock and Mary are supposed to be instant friends and love each other very much is one of the very few on the show that doesn't quite work for me.

 

To begin with, I don't find it entirely believable. Then, I think the way the characters act and the dialogue they have is more ambiguous than simply friendly. To each others faces, Sherlock and Mary are certainly pretty nice to each other - freakishly nice in Sherlock's case. Has there been anyone, anyone else who is this exempt from his usual acerbity? John, Molly, Mrs Hudson, Lestrade - we know he loves them all dearly, but he's insulted them time and time again, and worse. Now, when I am really polite and friendly towards somebody all the time, it usually does not mean I feel terribly close to them. It just doesn't come across to me as being comfortable with each other. Then, look at how Mary appears in Sherlock's mind palace. There's one shot where he walks around her ("who are you"), where she looks downright menacing. There's another where she shoots him again, wearing her wedding dress. And then there's Moriarty, who inside the mind palace is just one of Sherlock's inner voices, referring to her not very affectionately as "that wife".

 

Also, the way Mary teases John about Sherlock comes across as faintly annoyed to me. Maybe a teeny little bit jealous, too.

 

Now, I know perfectly well that the writers didn't intend that at all. They have said, repeatedly as far as I am aware, that they think of Sherlock as being "charmed" by Mary, and that the two of them instantly bond and get along really well. Apparently there was an idea for Sherlock and Mary to be shown playing the violin together and hanging out. (I am glad they got rid of that, I really am).

That's what I mean by "it doesn't work for me". I know what I'm supposed to see, and I just don't see it. Or rather, I do see it, but it doesn't seem that simple and straightforward to me.

 

My mistake here is that I see these characters as real people, and before I can help myself, I think about them that way. And in real life, it happens very rarely that your best friend gets married / finds a boy- or girlfriend, and you are simply unequivocally happy about that and fond of the new partner (especially if you are single yourself). Sure, you want to be. You have to be, or else your friendship will fall apart. But that's not the same as making a new friend organically and out of your own free will just because you like that person. And being happy for your friend does not always mean being entirely happy for yourself.

 

Sherlock and Mary's friendship seems forced to me. I know it's actually the people who created the characters who are doing the forcing, but since I tend to ignore them when I think about their work, I end up thinking the characters are forcing themselves.

 

 

Whew - what a long ramble! I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Some good points Toby and rambling is OK.  It is coherent rambling not incoherent so you are OK.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I think the way the characters act and the dialogue they have is more ambiguous than simply friendly. To each others faces, Sherlock and Mary are certainly pretty nice to each other - freakishly nice in Sherlock's case. Has there been anyone, anyone else who is this exempt from his usual acerbity?

Could it be that Sherlock figures the easiest way to keep an eye on Mary is to be her friend?

 

Now, I know perfectly well that the writers didn't intend that at all. They have said, repeatedly as far as I am aware, that they think of Sherlock as being "charmed" by Mary, and that the two of them instantly bond and get along really well.

... and considering the utter frankness with which Moftiss have always treated the fans, I see absolutely no reason to doubt them now.

[sfmpco]

 

 

 It's not exactly something I'm looking forward to either, but I am kind of curious how they will make the child fit in. My best guess is that we won't see much of it and that they'll use it as an excuse for why bad-ass-assassin-bored-out-of-her-wits-at-home Mary does not routinely come along on the above mentioned adventures, now that she has nothing to hide from the boys any more as far as her skills are concerned. "She gave it all up for children", remember? Then there can be a nice controversy around whether the series is sexist (again).

 

 

 

I was thinking about that "gave it all up for children" line this weekend.  Leave it to Sherlock to try to fix John and Mary's marital problems partly by showing them that his mum gave up mathematics to raise a family, so surely Mary could just take a pass on the whole assassain thing now that she's expecting. 

 

I'm a vote for little or no baby in the upcoming series.  Not that it wouldn't be cute and all, but I don't want to see Sherlock Holmes fumbling around with a baby in great confusion, nor do I want to see him be a natural like he was with wedding planning.  I basically don't want to see him touch the baby at all.  Maybe one shot of the child in John's arms when Sherlock texts him or something.

 

I'm really nervous, though, about that child's life expectancy, since it isn't canon.  Moftiss are going to have to tread very carefully if they want to keep that baby alive but in the background, and it will change the John Watson character in ways I don't know how they'll handle.  I'm kind of hoping the baby is Moriarty's by artificial insemination or something.

 

 

Okay, sorry, but this is going to sound really icky.... but I got to thinking last night about what if Mary and CAM had had some sort of relationship?  Because at some point I hope they explain her connection to him.  Maybe she was somehow working with/for CAM and he knew about her past (because he has a way of finding out things, period)... and he asked her to get close to Watson so that CAM could start to get close to Sherlock... but then Mary actually DID fall in love with John and wanted out of CAM's grasp...

 

Like I said, some day they have to explain it.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

 

 

 

Okay, sorry, but this is going to sound really icky.... but I got to thinking last night about what if Mary and CAM had had some sort of relationship?  Because at some point I hope they explain her connection to him.  Maybe she was somehow working with/for CAM and he knew about her past (because he has a way of finding out things, period)... and he asked her to get close to Watson so that CAM could start to get close to Sherlock... but then Mary actually DID fall in love with John and wanted out of CAM's grasp...

 

Like I said, some day they have to explain it.

 

 

 

That is a most interesting theory and (to a degree) ups CAM's creepiness. I hope it does come out how CAM & Mary are tied together other than he is an annoying bully that has already been established.

[T.o.b.y]

Yeah, I actually agree with you.  But the addition of a family for John is just so problematic, I kind of keep wishing it away. 

 

Why is it problematic? The fact that he has a kid won't keep John from going on adventures. Maybe it should, but the way they wrote his character, it won't. And in real life, I know very few men who gave up their hazardous occupations just because they have a family. Lots of soldiers have kids, for example, and they don't all stay away from war zones because of that. Of course we could have a long debate about whether this is right or wrong, but John is not set up to be a shining example to anybody.

 

Of course having a family (plus a full-time job to support it) will take up a lot of John's time. But he does not have to be free every day, or even every week, for the series to work. In the original, Holmes and Watson wouldn't see each other for months on end, and then suddenly Holmes would show up with a case, and they were off, no questions asked. Mrs Watson got no more than a telegram in one story to let her know. We only need three episodes every few years. In universe, that's not much time at all. There's plenty of room for long stretches of regular civilian life for John, which we simply don't see, because it would be boring.

 

It's funny, I don't see John as this cuddly nice guy at all, but I somehow think he'd be a really sweet, affectionate, indulgent father. I have to admit I would actually like a few very brief scenes of him with his daughter. Just glimpses. (And I am mean enough to also want one or two shots where they show the happy Watson family in stark contrast with Sherlock alone somewhere with his coat collar turned up scowling at something. Just, you know. For the heck of it. Because I like Sherlock as a loner. Poor Sherlock. But I just do.)

 

 

Also I'm not sure I believe killing Magnussen was coldly logical. At first (and 2nd thru ?th) viewing, my reaction was that it was an act of passion (and by passion I mean hatred, fury, loathing, etc., not sexual passion, k? ) Later on I held in mind the "coldly logical" concept (and even the "coldly logical act of passion" concept!) while viewing, but I don't really feel it, if you get what I mean. Maybe I just don't want to. I still want Sherlock to be a "good man" someday, and coldly logical murder doesn't fit into my personal definition of "good." But I can accept "made a horrific decision under duress." (As long as it doesn't become a habit! Sherlock as avenging angel in no way appeals to me; been there, done that, yawn, zzzzzzz. I want a protagonist who uses his brains, dammit, not weapons. I admit it; I'm selfish that way. )

 

Well, he does use his brains generally. Me, I like the "coldly logical act of passion" concept. I have little trouble with Sherlock deciding to kill the man in cold blood because it's simply the only available solution to the problem he presents. For me, that's somehow more excusable than just gunning him down in a fit of rage. Not that I think Sherlock wasn't furious. But I like to believe that his reason still had the upper hand there.

 

 

Could it be that Sherlock figures the easiest way to keep an eye on Mary is to be her friend?

 

But why would he need to keep an eye on her? Sherlock didn't know before His Last Vow that she had a dark secret. Well, okay he did sort of know, but he completely ignored that deduction until it was too late.

 

No, I think Sherlock likes Mary because he has to. He might have liked her fine if he had met her under different circumstances (he probably would have, she's clever and funny and competent, three major virtues in Sherlock's book), but the way he's introduced to her, at a time where John is furious at him and Sherlock has to realize that he has neatly ruined the best friendship he ever had or is likely to have, there simply is no other choice but to like the fiancée, who is the only person now close enough to John that she can persuade him to give Sherlock another chance. And even after John has come round, the friendship is still on uncertain ground. The last thing advisable now would be to dislike Mary or piss her off. Becoming her friend as well is the only option - and that is not the same as just liking someone because you like them, in my humble opinion.

 

Not that Sherlock doesn't have plenty of reasons to like Mary! She's kind of like a cross between John (funny, dry, practical, deceptively "normal") and Sherlock (ruthless, clever, extraordinary, frighteningly good actress, "prepared to do anything").

 

Okay, sorry, but this is going to sound really icky.... but I got to thinking last night about what if Mary and CAM had had some sort of relationship?

 

Ew! Ew! Ew! No, no, no, no. Poor Mary!

[Boton]

 

Yeah, I actually agree with you.  But the addition of a family for John is just so problematic, I kind of keep wishing it away. 

 

Why is it problematic? The fact that he has a kid won't keep John from going on adventures. Maybe it should, but the way they wrote his character, it won't. And in real life, I know very few men who gave up their hazardous occupations just because they have a family. Lots of soldiers have kids, for example, and they don't all stay away from war zones because of that. Of course we could have a long debate about whether this is right or wrong, but John is not set up to be a shining example to anybody.

 

Of course having a family (plus a full-time job to support it) will take up a lot of John's time. But he does not have to be free every day, or even every week, for the series to work. In the original, Holmes and Watson wouldn't see each other for months on end, and then suddenly Holmes would show up with a case, and they were off, no questions asked. Mrs Watson got no more than a telegram in one story to let her know. We only need three episodes every few years. In universe, that's not much time at all. There's plenty of room for long stretches of regular civilian life for John, which we simply don't see, because it would be boring.

 

 

 

I guess it's problematic for me because I have no faith in television, even though I should have with this particular production.  If Moftiss do what they've done so spectacularly so far and keep the flavor of the canon ACD Holmes stories intact, then John can have 15 kids as far as I am concerned.  And we'll never see any of them and rarely hear about them.

 

I just worry because modern TV, or at least modern American TV (which I know this is not), almost always takes the introduction of a baby as an excuse to turn a character into a parent at the expense of everything else in their lives.  I don't really want to see John tired because he was taking his turn changing nappies all night or spit-up on his collar or him accidentally pulling a pacifier out of his pocket or any of those standard things that we get on TV that we are supposed to coo about because its so cute.  

 

So I'm good with just Sherlock asking maybe once in three episodes about how Mary and the kid are, and John saying, "fine," and that being about it.  Unless the writers are very, very clever about it.

[Boton]

 

I love that -- I love that Sherlock and Mary have increasingly been two peas in a pod, starting with them conferring about how much weight John has gained (a nice little lift from ACD canon).  

 

Hm. I don't love that, to be honest. The idea that Sherlock and Mary are supposed to be instant friends and love each other very much is one of the very few on the show that doesn't quite work for me.

 

To begin with, I don't find it entirely believable. Then, I think the way the characters act and the dialogue they have is more ambiguous than simply friendly. To each others faces, Sherlock and Mary are certainly pretty nice to each other - freakishly nice in Sherlock's case. Has there been anyone, anyone else who is this exempt from his usual acerbity? John, Molly, Mrs Hudson, Lestrade - we know he loves them all dearly, but he's insulted them time and time again, and worse. Now, when I am really polite and friendly towards somebody all the time, it usually does not mean I feel terribly close to them. It just doesn't come across to me as being comfortable with each other. Then, look at how Mary appears in Sherlock's mind palace. There's one shot where he walks around her ("who are you"), where she looks downright menacing. There's another where she shoots him again, wearing her wedding dress. And then there's Moriarty, who inside the mind palace is just one of Sherlock's inner voices, referring to her not very affectionately as "that wife".

 

Also, the way Mary teases John about Sherlock comes across as faintly annoyed to me. Maybe a teeny little bit jealous, too.

 

Now, I know perfectly well that the writers didn't intend that at all. They have said, repeatedly as far as I am aware, that they think of Sherlock as being "charmed" by Mary, and that the two of them instantly bond and get along really well. Apparently there was an idea for Sherlock and Mary to be shown playing the violin together and hanging out. (I am glad they got rid of that, I really am).

That's what I mean by "it doesn't work for me". I know what I'm supposed to see, and I just don't see it. Or rather, I do see it, but it doesn't seem that simple and straightforward to me.

 

My mistake here is that I see these characters as real people, and before I can help myself, I think about them that way. And in real life, it happens very rarely that your best friend gets married / finds a boy- or girlfriend, and you are simply unequivocally happy about that and fond of the new partner (especially if you are single yourself). Sure, you want to be. You have to be, or else your friendship will fall apart. But that's not the same as making a new friend organically and out of your own free will just because you like that person. And being happy for your friend does not always mean being entirely happy for yourself.

 

Sherlock and Mary's friendship seems forced to me. I know it's actually the people who created the characters who are doing the forcing, but since I tend to ignore them when I think about their work, I end up thinking the characters are forcing themselves.

 

 

Whew - what a long ramble! I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

 

 

And you are right about the "real people" aspect, which is normally my default when dealing with these characters.  Especially Sherlock -- I always assume he's a normal person having normal emotions that he chooses to turn off when he can, and I assume that his character is created mostly from normal human behavior around which his intellect and a few quirks are wound.  

 

But I just can't seem to help myself with Mary.  I want those two to get along.  I want them to be actual friends.  I want everything that's the opposite of the usual trope -- I want the whole relationship to defy the usual expectation that the new girlfriend/wife will break up the buddies.  (Although, shooting your husband's best friend is a fairly effective way to destabilize all relationships involved.)

 

Plus, I was thinking about this last night in terms of other shows that have used the John Watson/Mary Morstan relationship in a modern context (specifically, House M.D.), and they always go the route of having the Holmes character and the Mary character at odds because  they are too similar.  What I like about Sherlock and Mary -- so far -- is that those two seem to like each other because they are similar.  And, of course Sherlock likes that John picked a wife that's in some ways a female Sherlock -- it's a great ego boost, if nothing else.  And I suppose that's where what I emotionally want for the show starts to cloud my rational judgement.  I hate when that happens.  

[Arcadia]

 

I love that -- I love that Sherlock and Mary have increasingly been two peas in a pod, starting with them conferring about how much weight John has gained (a nice little lift from ACD canon).

Also, the way Mary teases John about Sherlock comes across as faintly annoyed to me. Maybe a teeny little bit jealous, too.

 

.... And in real life, it happens very rarely that your best friend gets married / finds a boy- or girlfriend, and you are simply unequivocally happy about that and fond of the new partner (especially if you are single yourself). Sure, you want to be. You have to be, or else your friendship will fall apart. But that's not the same as making a new friend organically and out of your own free will just because you like that person. And being happy for your friend does not always mean being entirely happy for yourself.

 

I have to admit I also love the relationship between Sherlock and Mary, and I like the teasing Mary gives both of them. In fact, I rather love all the "cute" bits, I'm afraid. As long as they keep them in check like they have done so far. But it all makes a nice counterpoint to the sturm and drang, imo.

 

I agree that there's a bit of sadness when your friends get married and start a new life which doesn't involve you. But I have really come to really like some of my friends' spouses as well, so I don't find it that much of a stretch to think that Sherlock could genuinely like Mary. I hope he does, I hope he's not just playing John for a fool again. And I like to think he was predisposed to like her from the start because she was very quickly on his side, and treated him like a human being instead of a freak. 

 

 

Yeah, I actually agree with you.  But the addition of a family for John is just so problematic, I kind of keep wishing it away.

 

Why is it problematic? The fact that he has a kid won't keep John from going on adventures.

 

This is my feeling as well, it wouldn't be that hard to keep John's family in the background. If Mary thinks John storming into a drug den is sexy, I don't think she'll have much problem with sending him off on other adventures. He may feel guilty about it, but hey, that's his problem.

 

But I just can't seem to help myself with Mary.  I want those two to get along.  I want them to be actual friends.  I want everything that's the opposite of the usual trope -- I want the whole relationship to defy the usual expectation that the new girlfriend/wife will break up the buddies.  ...

Exactly. I was expecting the usual, like we saw in the Blind Banker ... and instead he's completely at ease with her. I like that they've shown Sherlock is capable of being friends with a woman, especially since his usual attitude towards them seems to be that they are rather annoying and silly.

[sittything]

Not to pull a ship here, because that is no way my intent with this comparison, but I have a tendency in my mind to liken Sherlock to Mary and John to Molly.  It's why I think Molly could end up being a very important FRIEND...FRIEND I SAID FRIEND!... to Sherlock, and explains why Sherlock and Mary are, as Boton said, like two peas in a pod.

 

Both Molly and John are very loyal, caring people.  They both seem to have a great capacity to love and accept unconditionally.  John has chosen to not ask about Mary's past and to only concern himself with her future, and Molly was willing to help Sherlock, even when he suggested that he may not be who she thought he was, who he thought he was.  Granted, John took a bit of time to arrive at his decision, understandably, but that's still huge.  For Sherlock, they tend to humanize him and both tend to call him on his crap.  They also both seemingly want normal lives, yet are drawn to somewhat dangerous, unconventional people.   This is why John is friends with Sherlock and fell in love with Mary.  He chose them (well her, but you get my point), as Sherlock so aptly pointed out.  Poor Molly for all her trying, tried to love a nice, normal guy... but we all know how well that worked out. 

 

Sherlock and Mary are clearly both clever people with dark, checkered lives.  Mary not be as brilliant as Sherlock, but she's clearly very smart and sharp, and I think Sherlock has a great deal of respect for that, just like he did with The Woman.  They can be morally ambiguous at times, and yet they've ended up with "angels" for friends.  I've gotta think that Sherlock genuinely likes Mary, shooting aside.  He's not one to mince words or feign appreciation of people, at least not for any length of time outside of what serves his purpose, and he certainly was never kind to any of the other women in John's life just b/c John liked them.

[Boton]

Not to pull a ship here, because that is no way my intent with this comparison, but I have a tendency in my mind to liken Sherlock to Mary and John to Molly.  It's why I think Molly could end up being a very important FRIEND...FRIEND I SAID FRIEND!... to Sherlock, and explains why Sherlock and Mary are, as Boton said, like two peas in a pod.

 

Both Molly and John are very loyal, caring people.  They both seem to have a great capacity to love and accept unconditionally.  John has chosen to not ask about Mary's past and to only concern himself with her future, and Molly was willing to help Sherlock, even when he suggested that he may not be who she thought he was, who he thought he was.  Granted, John took a bit of time to arrive at his decision, understandably, but that's still huge.  For Sherlock, they tend to humanize him and both tend to call him on his crap.  They also both seemingly want normal lives, yet are drawn to somewhat dangerous, unconventional people.   This is why John is friends with Sherlock and fell in love with Mary.  He chose them (well her, but you get my point), as Sherlock so aptly pointed out.  Poor Molly for all her trying, tried to love a nice, normal guy... but we all know how well that worked out. 

 

Sherlock and Mary are clearly both clever people with dark, checkered lives.  Mary not be as brilliant as Sherlock, but she's clearly very smart and sharp, and I think Sherlock has a great deal of respect for that, just like he did with The Woman.  They can be morally ambiguous at times, and yet they've ended up with "angels" for friends.  I've gotta think that Sherlock genuinely likes Mary, shooting aside.  He's not one to mince words or feign appreciation of people, at least not for any length of time outside of what serves his purpose, and he certainly was never kind to any of the other women in John's life just b/c John liked them.

 

 

Yes!  Yes!  Sittything, next round of adult beverages is on me for this wonderful explanation!  

 

For whatever reason, the "sociopath and caring companion relationship" (for want of a better description) is a stable one in this world.  Mary and Sherlock are cut a bit from the same cloth -- they are a bit dangerous, a bit unstable, and a lot smart and capable.  But they need the influence of a John or a Molly as an anchor to keep them from drifting too far afield.  John and Molly both need to be needed in many ways, which can be a wonderful trait when it is harnessed to someone who can do great things but needs help being a good person.

[sittything]

 

 

But they need the influence of a John or a Molly as an anchor to keep them from drifting too far afield. 

 

 

Oooooo.... I really like that analogy.

[Mark Celebsclothing]

Boton, on 13 Nov 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

But they need the influence of a John or a Molly as an anchor to keep them from drifting too far afield.

100% Agree with you man

Edited November 30, 2014 by Carol the Dabbler
Moved new post outside the quote box

[Mark Celebsclothing]

Loves Sherlock and his appearance

[sfmpco]

 

 

Exactly. I was expecting the usual, like we saw in the Blind Banker ... and instead he's completely at ease with her. I like that they've shown Sherlock is capable of being friends with a woman, especially since his usual attitude towards them seems to be that they are rather annoying and silly.

 

 

Yes, he is capable of having a woman for a friend, but  (shooting aside) she is no threat to him in that she's not attracted to him.  She's has eyes for John only.  So that puts him at ease, and I think, especially during the serviette folding bit in TSOT that he his almost child-like at times with her, like a younger sibling, sitting cross-legged on the floor, totally into what she's into.  "That just sort of happened!"   Love that line.  Even John gives him a look like, "What the heck is wrong with you?" or even, "Do I know you?"  Sherlock is so caught up in  the wedding planning that he Youtubes serviettes.  He's not jealous of Mary being in John's life.  No!  He's got a new playmate, basically.  In fact, he's not even paying attention to the cases he has coming in, and he's not quick to pick up on John's boredom when John asks him to pick a case.  Of course, Mary thinks that Sherlock is just sticking close by because he's scared that things will change and he'll be left out of the picture.  She doesn't want anything to change between the guys.  If Sherlock is feeling that way, his feelings are manifesting in an over-indulgence of being interested in wedding planning.  Even so, he likes Mary and does whatever he can to help her and isn't put off by it.  

 

How fun it would now be to ask Ben, "Swan or Sydney Opera House?"  LOl

 

Maybe Sherlock could get this off of Youtube for the Christmas special:

 

[Shadow Dweller]

Mycroft and Sherlock have a heart to heart chat and planning session on how to deal with CAM, and make sure that Sherlock never have to face Magnussen without clear understanding of what, when and who he can count on. 

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

 Exactly. I was expecting the usual, like we saw in the Blind Banker ... and instead he's completely at ease with her. I like that they've shown Sherlock is capable of being friends with a woman, especially since his usual attitude towards them seems to be that they are rather annoying and silly.

 

Isn't that more or less his attitude towards all people, though? I don't think Sherlock seems to care much whether someone is male or female, nearly everyone is...

 

And we already knew he can be friends with a woman, because he's friends with Molly, isn't he? And Mrs Hudson. That's two women.

 

Back to fixing His Last Vow, I've come to think it doesn't need any fixing at all. It's just fine. I only needed to get used to it...

[Arcadia]

 

Exactly. I was expecting the usual, like we saw in the Blind Banker ... and instead he's completely at ease with her. I like that they've shown Sherlock is capable of being friends with a woman, especially since his usual attitude towards them seems to be that they are rather annoying and silly.

Isn't that more or less his attitude towards all people, though? I don't think Sherlock seems to care much whether someone is male or female, nearly everyone is...

 

Hmmm. I don't know, it seems different to me. Sarah, e.g.; he immediately assumed she was an idiot and bristled at her mere presence. Someone like Dimmock, on the other hand, he didn't get impatient with until it became obvious that Dimmock was almost as pompous as he was.

 

And we already knew he can be friends with a woman, because he's friends with Molly, isn't he? And Mrs Hudson. That's two women.

Er ... um, no, I wouldn't call that friendship. Mrs. Hudson he treats like a favorite aunt, not a friend; and Molly ... he's horrible to Molly, at least at first. By S3 I think he's moving towards friendship, but her feelings for him are still complicating the matter. I think he's grateful to her, and knows he owes her some kindness, but I don't see it as friendship yet.

[Redbeard]

 

 

Okay, sorry, but this is going to sound really icky.... but I got to thinking last night about what if Mary and CAM had had some sort of relationship?  Because at some point I hope they explain her connection to him.  Maybe she was somehow working with/for CAM and he knew about her past (because he has a way of finding out things, period)... and he asked her to get close to Watson so that CAM could start to get close to Sherlock... but then Mary actually DID fall in love with John and wanted out of CAM's grasp...

 

Like I said, some day they have to explain it.

 

 

It does sound somewhat icky, but I have thought the same.  It just seems to be so personal between CAM and Mary...but then again his leering creepiness makes it seem personal with everybody. 

 

Also, I am against a baby for the Watsons.  I could grow to live with it I suppose if it wasn't a main plot.  I just happen to like a single and womanizing John Watson lol. 

 

And for the record, I don't think Mary and Sherlock are that much alike.  Sherlock is a bored genius who uses his intellect to solve crimes.  He chose to become a "good guy".  Mary is more of a street-smart manipulator, and chose to be a "bad guy".  The only thing they have in common is their coldness, and their mutual affection for John that defies that coldness.  But she is nothing like Sherlock Holmes.

[Arcadia]

Well, she's a higher-functioning sociopath than Sherlock is, for one thing. :D He telegraphed his, er, "pathy" in the first minute we saw him, it took three episodes to find her out.

I think a connection to CAM is a possibility, but not a likely one. I kind of think his story is done, over and forgotten, with the possible exception of Sherlock having to deal with having become a murderer. CAM's served his purpose, which was to illustrate how dark Sherlock would become to protect his own; I think they'll move on. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part......
 

Back to fixing His Last Vow, I've come to think it doesn't need any fixing at all. It's just fine. I only needed to get used to it...

Yep. I don't know if I've gotten used to it or just accepted it for what it is, but I'm at mostly at peace with it. This is one place where reading the commentary really was helpful, because Moftiss actually explained one or two things to my satisfaction, but especially because they acknowledged that they left a lot of loose threads dangling. It doesn't mean they'll ever resolve them, but for some reason I have more faith in them now that I know they realize the threads are there .... that they didn't just miss them out of laziness or whatever. I.e., there is a method to their madness! (Or maybe the method is to drive us mad.....)

When I watch HLV now, I still have the same reaction as when I first saw it; the acting is simply brilliant, the mind palace sequence is a sensation, and it's an emotional wringer. The only difference is I no longer feel so confused by it, mostly due to all the discussions on this forum. So thanks everyone for helping me come to terms with it!!!!!!! (You know your obsession with Sherlock is bad when things like this really matter to you......)

[sfmpco]

I've been thinking that besides the fact that CAM's cut hospital scene is slightly redundant to Mary's scene, another reason they may have cut it is the single red rose from Irene Adler.  That may have sent the fandom into a frenzy of speculation of whether or not she would play a part in S4 and that they didn't want to telescope anything at all.  Well, she can stay the Woman, but I don't care to see another episode that revolves around her.  Let her stay in the mind palace.

 

When I think of how incredibly rich and complex HLV is, I can't think of a thing I would fix.  We've been given glimpses of cut dialogue in SHERLOCK CHRONICLES, which I do wonder if they filmed some of that and it ended up on the cutting room floor.

 

I've said it before, that i wouldn't mind seeing a director's cut.

[joanneta1]

You are all old hands at speculating, extrapolating and surmising!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I've only been speculating, etc since September. So if something does get repeats it's not the end of the world. Also some good ideas on story line possibilities.

[Arcadia]

You are all old hands at speculating, extrapolating and surmising!