Mycroft Holmes

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Sibling rivalry can be known for a lot of cheap shot.  Rivalry is rarely played fair.

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Sibling rivalry can be known for a lot of cheap shot.  Rivalry is rarely played fair.

 

Yeah, I agree.  Like I said in another context, I pretty much assume anything those two hurl at one another is being spoken by a 12 year old.  Seems to put it all in the proper perspective.

[Convict13]

 

 

So Mycroft is a sort of accidental neo-Steed -- and apparently that look and manner are sufficiently retro-British to trigger an impression of gayness for an American observer.

 

(Then again, if his own brother jokes about Mycroft being a "queen," maybe it's not just us Americans who get that impression?)

 

 

Going to take one more stab (bad brolly/sword joke) at the impression of gayness, since it still puzzles me why that was my immediate take on Mycroft.  

 

I think there are are cultures where "masculine" encompasses a lot of traits that perhaps it doesn't in U.S. culture.  I think the traditional British culture is one of these.  For example, James Bond is about as British and as masculine a character as I can think of, but I think the character would not come off nearly as masculine in an American context. (That is, he almost has to be British for us to get it.)

 

Part of it is that I don't think we (American culture) have the automatic assumption that extreme masculinity can also encompass appreciating art and music, looking phenomenal in a tuxedo, and knowing all the social graces.  I think the U.S. culture has more of the "cowboy" as its masculine template.  So, I think maybe some of that translates inadvertently when I'm viewing Mycroft, and what is actually extreme refinement I'm reading as not overtly, stereotypically U.S.-masculine.  If that makes any sense?

 

Like I've mentioned, I'm a ballroom dancer.  (I always imagine that Mycroft is a good ballroom dancer as well, if you want a piece of totally-unsupported head canon.)  Most male amateur ballroom dancers in the U.S. are hetero and I would say quite masculine.  They often joke that there is nothing more masculine than the ability to dress up in a tailsuit, hold a beautiful woman in your arms, and still be able to practice an incredibly athletic sport.  There is a great deal of truth to that.  But yet the U.S. masculine athletic ideal is more along the lines of football. 

 

 

 

Ballroom dancing, yes I could so see Mycroft enjoying that.,  I so wished that was one of CAM's pressure points for Mycroft.  

[Shadow Dweller]

It seems that Sherlock suffers from Peter Pan Syndrome, with Mycroft in Wendy's role as enabler. He actually expect for Mycroft to get him out of Serbian prison and frequent reference of the latter as 'Mother'. In The Last Vow, a glimpse of Sherlock as a frightened child as seen from Mycroft's eyes, understandable from perspective of someone who care / love his reckless sibling that he would be compelled to protect his vulnerable 'baby brother' who cannot defend himself. After Moriarty's face appeared in all screens at the end of TLV, Mycroft called Sherlock and his words came along as , "Have you learn already (from your mistake)? To me it speaks loudly about desire to help younger sibling to grow up, feeble attempt to empower Sherlock to face every day reality where adults expected to be responsible. Too bad that Mycroft did it wrong... 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hello, Shadow Dweller -- welcome to Sherlock Forum!    I like your analysis.

 

What would you call Mycroft then?  Seems like he's got the opposite of a Peter Pan complex -- I can't believe that he was ever a kid!

 

[Shadow Dweller]

Hello, Shadow Dweller -- welcome to Sherlock Forum!    I like your analysis.

 

What would you call Mycroft then?  Seems like he's got the opposite of a Peter Pan complex -- I can't believe that he was ever a kid!

Thank you, Carol ^^

 

I think Mycroft was torn between wanting to care for Sherlock and also feels burdened by him, hence the snippy attitude. I bet he would feels certain emptiness inside should Sherlock finally did not need his help again  :lol:  

 

Mycroft strikes me as someone who see the world as cruel place and what would be better than caring for those he loved by empowering them to stand by themselves? Mycroft's job and position is dangerous one, if we can believe Sherlock's 'He is the British Government' and Magnussen's 'MI6', the probability that he might meet his end not as an old man in his own bed is certainly there. What would happen to Sherlock if Mycroft was taken out of picture by hostile party before the first can protect himself both from external forces and himself?

 

Unlike public figure in power such as Prime Minister, shadow controller like Mycroft is particularly vulnerable because he lacked true legitimate power. He might be master of secrets and sordid dealings in Britain but much of his claim to authority came from fact that he was trusted by the power that be. Of course he have personal skill, that counts too, but when push come to shove, it is not impossible that his masters finally decide that his usefulness has come to end.

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Hello, Shadow Dweller -- welcome to Sherlock Forum!    I like your analysis.

 

What would you call Mycroft then?  Seems like he's got the opposite of a Peter Pan complex -- I can't believe that he was ever a kid!

Thank you, Carol ^^

 

I think Mycroft was torn between wanting to care for Sherlock and also feels burdened by him, hence the snippy attitude. I bet he would feels certain emptiness inside should Sherlock finally did not need his help again  :lol:

 

Mycroft strikes me as someone who see the world as cruel place and what would be better than caring for those he loved by empowering them to stand by themselves? 

 

 

Welcome, Shadow Dweller!

 

I agree about Mycroft, but I also think he takes on too much responsibility for his little brother.  I think Mycroft has placed himself in a pseudo-parental role in regards to Sherlock, maybe because of some run of the mill comment or responsibility he was given as a child.  Seven years of age difference is enough for Mycroft to always feel so much more competent, smarter, and more prepared that Sherlock, and I don't think Mycroft has internalized the fact that his brother is an adult.  It's kind of interesting, really, because often Mycroft will trust Sherlock with missions for MI6, and then turn around and treat him like he can't manage his own flat or his own love life.  

[Shadow Dweller]

 

Welcome, Shadow Dweller!

 

I agree about Mycroft, but I also think he takes on too much responsibility for his little brother.  I think Mycroft has placed himself in a pseudo-parental role in regards to Sherlock, maybe because of some run of the mill comment or responsibility he was given as a child.  Seven years of age difference is enough for Mycroft to always feel so much more competent, smarter, and more prepared that Sherlock, and I don't think Mycroft has internalized the fact that his brother is an adult.  It's kind of interesting, really, because often Mycroft will trust Sherlock with missions for MI6, and then turn around and treat him like he can't manage his own flat or his own love life.  

 

 

Enabler  ;)

 

The Holmes brothers certainly messed up with tonnes of issues, eh. After observing family dynamics in their estate house, I wonder what kind of thing that produced two person like them. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree about Mycroft, but I also think he takes on too much responsibility for his little brother.  I think Mycroft has placed himself in a pseudo-parental role in regards to Sherlock, maybe because of some run of the mill comment or responsibility he was given as a child.  Seven years of age difference is enough for Mycroft to always feel so much more competent, smarter, and more prepared that Sherlock, and I don't think Mycroft has internalized the fact that his brother is an adult.  It's kind of interesting, really, because often Mycroft will trust Sherlock with missions for MI6, and then turn around and treat him like he can't manage his own flat or his own love life.

 

I think you're right.  I've known people like that, who were told at a young, impressionable age that they were responsible for their younger siblings.  They took it so much to heart that even now, as adults, they feel when their younger siblings make a mistake that it's somehow their fault.

 

[Zain]

 

 

 

I agree about Mycroft, but I also think he takes on too much responsibility for his little brother.  I think Mycroft has placed himself in a pseudo-parental role in regards to Sherlock, maybe because of some run of the mill comment or responsibility he was given as a child.  Seven years of age difference is enough for Mycroft to always feel so much more competent, smarter, and more prepared that Sherlock, and I don't think Mycroft has internalized the fact that his brother is an adult.  It's kind of interesting, really, because often Mycroft will trust Sherlock with missions for MI6, and then turn around and treat him like he can't manage his own flat or his own love life.  

 

 

I completely agree with you. One of my pet theories is that Mycroft took on this role, because his parents were too absorbed in their own issues during Sherlock's younger years. There have been hints of an affair, after all. But over the years, he forgot to adapt to the changing circumstances.

And in a way, yes, even now, Mycroft is still nannying Sherlock. And while Sherlock complains, it seems like he is too used to this to truly rebel. He may call Mycroft his enemy, tell him to mind his own business, but when he hits a rough patch, he seeks help from him like in TRF.

 

I once read a meta essay which suggested the theory that Mycroft relinquished control over Sherlock when Sherlock attended university, because he then concentrated on his own career. Subsequently, he feels responsible for Sherlock's drug abuse, because he had "neglected" to pay attention to his brother. Thus, Mycroft now is overbearing to compensate for his "mistake."

I like that theory, but I think it's a bit too far-fetched to call it anythng but head-canon.

[T.o.b.y]

...I don't think Mycroft has internalized the fact that his brother is an adult.  It's kind of interesting, really, because often Mycroft will trust Sherlock with missions for MI6, and then turn around and treat him like he can't manage his own flat or his own love life.  

 

:lol: Yes, exactly. I think that a lot of real parents are that way, too.

 

Sherlock is really a typical spoiled child from a rich family, isn't he? Only someone who has always been looked after can afford such utter and complete disregard for the "ordinary" concerns of making a living and keeping yourself reasonably safe and healthy. Keeping him fed, warm and whole has always been someone else's problem.

 

I am probably the only member of the audience who finds that charming. Spoiled brats unite! :P

 

 

[Shadow Dweller]

 

...I don't think Mycroft has internalized the fact that his brother is an adult.  It's kind of interesting, really, because often Mycroft will trust Sherlock with missions for MI6, and then turn around and treat him like he can't manage his own flat or his own love life.  

 

:lol: Yes, exactly. I think that a lot of real parents are that way, too.

 

Sherlock is really a typical spoiled child from a rich family, isn't he? Only someone who has always been looked after can afford such utter and complete disregard for the "ordinary" concerns of making a living and keeping yourself reasonably safe and healthy. Keeping him fed, warm and whole has always been someone else's problem.

 

I am probably the only member of the audience who finds that charming. Spoiled brats unite! :P

 

 

 

Youngest child syndrome, hope Sherlock learn the ways of adulthood before too late and all bets are off (said a older sibling who sympathize with Mycroft)  :lol: And also, please have him learn to manage his emotions better  :P

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...I don't think Mycroft has internalized the fact that his brother is an adult.  It's kind of interesting, really, because often Mycroft will trust Sherlock with missions for MI6, and then turn around and treat him like he can't manage his own flat or his own love life.  

 

:lol: Yes, exactly. I think that a lot of real parents are that way, too.

 

Sherlock is really a typical spoiled child from a rich family, isn't he? Only someone who has always been looked after can afford such utter and complete disregard for the "ordinary" concerns of making a living and keeping yourself reasonably safe and healthy. Keeping him fed, warm and whole has always been someone else's problem.

 

I am probably the only member of the audience who finds that charming. Spoiled brats unite! :P

 

 

 

Youngest child syndrome, hope Sherlock learn the ways of adulthood before too late and all bets are off (said a older sibling who sympathize with Mycroft)  :lol: And also, please have him learn to manage his emotions better  :P

 

 

I can never quite get myself to see Sherlock as either rich or as a spoiled brat, actually.  (Of course, I'm an only, so that's coloring things for me.)  But I do think Mycroft acts like an "honorary only" -- a child who grew up through a significant portion of his life being the focus and who then had to budge over for the new baby, who he took a great deal of responsibility for.

 

I think Mycroft and Sherlock's relationship never grew out of adolescence because the age difference is perfect for them to have spent nearly two decades with one or the other of them being a teenager (That is, Mycroft is 13-19 while Sherlock is 6-12, and then we do it again where Sherlock is 13-19 while Mycroft is 20-26.)  

 

I think both Sherlock and Mycroft need to learn to manage their emotions, but that's mostly because they took the route of trying not to have any.  (Says the person who has tried this repeatedly.)  I think, typically, you try to suppress your emotions if they are always strong enough to scare you, so I see both of them as deeply emotional but with trying to rein that in to something controllable.

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I agree about Mycroft, but I also think he takes on too much responsibility for his little brother.  I think Mycroft has placed himself in a pseudo-parental role in regards to Sherlock, maybe because of some run of the mill comment or responsibility he was given as a child.  Seven years of age difference is enough for Mycroft to always feel so much more competent, smarter, and more prepared that Sherlock, and I don't think Mycroft has internalized the fact that his brother is an adult.  It's kind of interesting, really, because often Mycroft will trust Sherlock with missions for MI6, and then turn around and treat him like he can't manage his own flat or his own love life.  

 

 

I completely agree with you. One of my pet theories is that Mycroft took on this role, because his parents were too absorbed in their own issues during Sherlock's younger years. There have been hints of an affair, after all. But over the years, he forgot to adapt to the changing circumstances.

And in a way, yes, even now, Mycroft is still nannying Sherlock. And while Sherlock complains, it seems like he is too used to this to truly rebel. He may call Mycroft his enemy, tell him to mind his own business, but when he hits a rough patch, he seeks help from him like in TRF.

 

I once read a meta essay which suggested the theory that Mycroft relinquished control over Sherlock when Sherlock attended university, because he then concentrated on his own career. Subsequently, he feels responsible for Sherlock's drug abuse, because he had "neglected" to pay attention to his brother. Thus, Mycroft now is overbearing to compensate for his "mistake."

I like that theory, but I think it's a bit too far-fetched to call it anythng but head-canon.

 

 

I like the theory too, but I also think it's too far-fetched.  I know I'm in a minority, but I just never think that Sherlock's drug use was ever that bad.  I've always thought that everyone around him, particularly Mycroft, leaps to calling it "substance abuse" and a "drug habit" when Sherlock is more or less in control of it.  I've written a meta I plan to post on AO3 about this subject, but I suppose I keep getting cold feet because I don't have the prevailing opinion. 

[Shadow Dweller]

 

I can never quite get myself to see Sherlock as either rich or as a spoiled brat, actually.  (Of course, I'm an only, so that's coloring things for me.)  But I do think Mycroft acts like an "honorary only" -- a child who grew up through a significant portion of his life being the focus and who then had to budge over for the new baby, who he took a great deal of responsibility for.

I think Mycroft and Sherlock's relationship never grew out of adolescence because the age difference is perfect for them to have spent nearly two decades with one or the other of them being a teenager (That is, Mycroft is 13-19 while Sherlock is 6-12, and then we do it again where Sherlock is 13-19 while Mycroft is 20-26.)  

 

I think both Sherlock and Mycroft need to learn to manage their emotions, but that's mostly because they took the route of trying not to have any.  (Says the person who has tried this repeatedly.)  I think, typically, you try to suppress your emotions if they are always strong enough to scare you, so I see both of them as deeply emotional but with trying to rein that in to something controllable.

 

 

Not having emotions is biologically impossible unless you are no longer alive, not even removal of amygdala can achieve such condition completely. A few days ago I stumble into a thread here and a link that make me think, I would like to know your opinion about both. 

 

By the way, I like your signature, "Don't go into shock.  Obviously."  -- Mycroft, helpful as always. It seems that even in Sherlock's mind palace, Mycroft is the voice of reason (although if Sherlock actually managed to avoid hypovolemic shock just by sheer will, then I would love to learn that particular technique).  ;)

[sittything]

I haven't quite figured out how Mycroft became such a nanny figure to Sherlock.  Like how did it happen that he feels he has to "take care" of Sherlock?   Because when we met their parents in HLV Mr. Holmes said that his wife, while a genius and mathematician, gave it all up for the kids.  And they don't really strike me as uninvolved, neglectful parents.  I definitely don't buy into the theory that Mycroft basically raised Sherlock.

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I can never quite get myself to see Sherlock as either rich or as a spoiled brat, actually.  (Of course, I'm an only, so that's coloring things for me.)  But I do think Mycroft acts like an "honorary only" -- a child who grew up through a significant portion of his life being the focus and who then had to budge over for the new baby, who he took a great deal of responsibility for.

I think Mycroft and Sherlock's relationship never grew out of adolescence because the age difference is perfect for them to have spent nearly two decades with one or the other of them being a teenager (That is, Mycroft is 13-19 while Sherlock is 6-12, and then we do it again where Sherlock is 13-19 while Mycroft is 20-26.)  

 

I think both Sherlock and Mycroft need to learn to manage their emotions, but that's mostly because they took the route of trying not to have any.  (Says the person who has tried this repeatedly.)  I think, typically, you try to suppress your emotions if they are always strong enough to scare you, so I see both of them as deeply emotional but with trying to rein that in to something controllable.

 

 

Not having emotions is biologically impossible unless you are no longer alive, not even removal of amygdala can achieve such condition completely. A few days ago I stumble into a thread here and a link that make me think, I would like to know your opinion about both. 

 

By the way, I like your signature, "Don't go into shock.  Obviously."  -- Mycroft, helpful as always, It seems that even in Sherlock's mind palace, Mycroft is the voice of reason (although if Sherlock actually managed to avoid hypovolemic shock just by sheer will, then I would love to learn that particular technique).  ;)

 

 

I know, wouldn't you love to be able to ward off hypovolemic shock through mental will?  I mean, it doesn't come up that often, but when you need it, it would be really handy!   :D

 

I love Wellington Goose and I love his Sherlock metas.  I tend to agree with his analysis pretty much as written, but I'll try to give my gloss on the Myers-Briggs.  (Note, I'm not an MBTI expert, but I have used it somewhat in my work in higher education, and I'm technically allowed to administer the real thing.)

 

First of all, it's very difficult to assess someone's type by their behavior, because people are tremendously adaptable and tend to put on different "faces" or use different personality tools depending on context.  For example (to pick on myself for a moment), I am strongly ISTJ if I take the instrument in a work context (thinking of work-related situations).  I'm still ISTJ if I take it while thinking of personal interactions, but I'm much closer to the I/E and the T/F "lines."

 

So, if I had to "type" Mycroft and Sherlock?

 

I/E:  I think Mycroft has shown us he is a classic Introvert.  He doesn't like "legwork" associated with solving cases, and his retreat to recharge is the Diogenes Club, which is founded on not talking to your fellow members.  Mycroft needs to get away from others to stay sharp.  In fact, he may very well not be "lonely" in situations that Sherlock would perceive as loneliness-producing, because he may well view them as nourishing rather than depleting.

 

BC has said he believes Sherlock is an Extrovert.  I think he's closer to the line than Mycroft, but maybe not a true classic Extrovert.  He does like being the center of attention and is a "drama queen," but he also avoids social situations.  He may well be an E at "work" and an I privately.

 

S/N:  I think Mycroft is more of a classic Sensor.  He has positioned himself to where his work allows him an eagle-eye view of a situation, and then he reacts accordingly.  His work may well have made him more of an S than he was as a young man.  I think Sherlock, again, is close to the S/N line.  He wants data, but then he uses that data to make intuitive leaps.

 

T/F:  I agree with Wellington Goose pretty much here.  Mycroft is a Thinker and is comfortable being one.  (I'm not sure if I'd classify him as dysfunctional or not.)  Sherlock is a Feeler that is trying to emulate Mycroft (a Thinker) and pretty much failing at it.  His outbursts and "childish" behavior, in my opinion, may be partly due to the fact that he's trying to use Thinker tools to manage a Feeler personality.

 

P/J:  Again, I'd put Mycroft solidly J.  The fact that he can dispassionately discuss Sherlock's exile indicates that he believes the societal rules (a "murderer" must be somehow removed from society) trump any extenuating circumstances from his personal life.  Sherlock may be closer to the P category, given that ACD Holmes was often in favor of justice but not really wedded to the justice system.  That "Holmsian DNA" argues that Sherlock is comfortable with situational rules rather than universal rules.

 

So, overall, I'd put Mycroft solidly ISTJ, and that's why I make the crack that he tries to eliminate emotion.  It's impossible, as you say, but I'd argue that those of us in this category find emotion a little frightening.  It's a powerful force that doesn't seem to conform to any external, predictable rules, and one of the easiest ways to try to manage it is to make decisions according to sets of rules rather than allowing the emotion to take over in the situation.  

 

Sherlock is still a bit of a question mark for me, because, in spite of what I say above, I think he tries to play by Mycroft's rule book and behave as Mycroft has told him to do, and it doesn't particularly work for his personality. 

 

Thus endeth the essay of the day. 

[Shadow Dweller]

 

I know, wouldn't you love to be able to ward off hypovolemic shock through mental will?  I mean, it doesn't come up that often, but when you need it, it would be really handy!   :D

I love Wellington Goose and I love his Sherlock metas.  I tend to agree with his analysis pretty much as written, but I'll try to give my gloss on the Myers-Briggs.  (Note, I'm not an MBTI expert, but I have used it somewhat in my work in higher education, and I'm technically allowed to administer the real thing.)

 

First of all, it's very difficult to assess someone's type by their behavior, because people are tremendously adaptable and tend to put on different "faces" or use different personality tools depending on context.  For example (to pick on myself for a moment), I am strongly ISTJ if I take the instrument in a work context (thinking of work-related situations).  I'm still ISTJ if I take it while thinking of personal interactions, but I'm much closer to the I/E and the T/F "lines."

 

So, if I had to "type" Mycroft and Sherlock?

 

I/E:  I think Mycroft has shown us he is a classic Introvert.  He doesn't like "legwork" associated with solving cases, and his retreat to recharge is the Diogenes Club, which is founded on not talking to your fellow members.  Mycroft needs to get away from others to stay sharp.  In fact, he may very well not be "lonely" in situations that Sherlock would perceive as loneliness-producing, because he may well view them as nourishing rather than depleting.

 

BC has said he believes Sherlock is an Extrovert.  I think he's closer to the line than Mycroft, but maybe not a true classic Extrovert.  He does like being the center of attention and is a "drama queen," but he also avoids social situations.  He may well be an E at "work" and an I privately.

 

S/N:  I think Mycroft is more of a classic Sensor.  He has positioned himself to where his work allows him an eagle-eye view of a situation, and then he reacts accordingly.  His work may well have made him more of an S than he was as a young man.  I think Sherlock, again, is close to the S/N line.  He wants data, but then he uses that data to make intuitive leaps.

 

T/F:  I agree with Wellington Goose pretty much here.  Mycroft is a Thinker and is comfortable being one.  (I'm not sure if I'd classify him as dysfunctional or not.)  Sherlock is a Feeler that is trying to emulate Mycroft (a Thinker) and pretty much failing at it.  His outbursts and "childish" behavior, in my opinion, may be partly due to the fact that he's trying to use Thinker tools to manage a Feeler personality.

 

P/J:  Again, I'd put Mycroft solidly J.  The fact that he can dispassionately discuss Sherlock's exile indicates that he believes the societal rules (a "murderer" must be somehow removed from society) trump any extenuating circumstances from his personal life.  Sherlock may be closer to the P category, given that ACD Holmes was often in favor of justice but not really wedded to the justice system.  That "Holmsian DNA" argues that Sherlock is comfortable with situational rules rather than universal rules.

 

So, overall, I'd put Mycroft solidly ISTJ, and that's why I make the crack that he tries to eliminate emotion.  It's impossible, as you say, but I'd argue that those of us in this category find emotion a little frightening.  It's a powerful force that doesn't seem to conform to any external, predictable rules, and one of the easiest ways to try to manage it is to make decisions according to sets of rules rather than allowing the emotion to take over in the situation.  

 

Sherlock is still a bit of a question mark for me, because, in spite of what I say above, I think he tries to play by Mycroft's rule book and behave as Mycroft has told him to do, and it doesn't particularly work for his personality. 

 

Thus endeth the essay of the day. 

 

 

What an essay!  :D Here we go... *rubs palms together gleefully*

 

Isn't behaviour in workplace usually measured with DISC assessment instead of Myer-Briggs that is a temperament sorter?

 

A and B, which one do you think is closer with Mycroft and what makes you think that way? Proof from the series please ^^

 

 

>> P/J:  Again, I'd put Mycroft solidly J.  The fact that he can dispassionately discuss Sherlock's exile indicates that he believes the societal rules (a "murderer" must be somehow removed from society) trump any extenuating circumstances from his personal life. 

 

The way it looks here, Mycroft is not someone who would say exactly what he thinks in front of colleagues. He would tailor it to suit the situation; appear as putting 'brotherly sentiment' upon the needs of Queen and Country is practically giving his political enemies ammunition to bring his downfall. Besides, having reputation as being impartial judge has its own merit. Remember that MI6 originally wants to send Sherlock to Eastern Europe on suicide mission, that is an alarm that there are people high-up who wants Sherlock gone and also can be perceived as sort of test for Mycroft. By giving those people sense of false security, Mycroft just bought time to prepare his next steps, whatever it is. 

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What an essay!  :D Here we go... *rubs palms together gleefully*

 

Isn't behaviour in workplace usually measured with DISC profiling instead of Myer-Briggs that is a temperament sorter?

 

A and B, which one do you think is closer with Mycroft and what makes you think that way? Proof from the series please ^^

 

 

>> P/J:  Again, I'd put Mycroft solidly J.  The fact that he can dispassionately discuss Sherlock's exile indicates that he believes the societal rules (a "murderer" must be somehow removed from society) trump any extenuating circumstances from his personal life. 

 

The way it looks here, Mycroft is not someone who would say exactly what he thinks in front of colleagues. He would tailor it to suit the situation; appear as putting 'brotherly sentiment' upon the needs of Queen and Country is practically giving his political enemies ammunition to bring his downfall. Besides, having reputation as being impartial judge has its own merit. Remember that MI6 originally wants to send Sherlock to Easter Europe on suicide mission, that is an alarm that there are people high-up who wants Sherlock gone and also can be perceived as sort of test for Mycroft. By giving those people sense of false security, Mycroft just bought time to prepare his next steps, whatever it is. 

 

 

Oh, I like you, Shadow!  You're making me think this morning.

 

I think trying to make a call between ISTJ and INTJ for Mycroft is an example of what I was saying about it being hard to "type" someone based on their behavior.  Now, with fiction, we are lucky because might get to see the characters in various different situations and make a call based on a more well-rounded perspective.  

 

I still would put Mycroft as an ISTJ, although I would accept an argument that he's close to the line or is adept at using intuition when needed.  My impression of him as a sensor is based on a couple of incidents:  First, the way he handled the entire "Bond Air/Coventry" project in SiB.  This is a man who is adept at assembling parts of a project and making decisions based on the facts of the situation rather than his gut feeling about whether the project is "ready."  

 

Also in SiB, I think the meeting with John about what to tell Sherlock about Irene is an S moment.  He doesn't trust his intuition about what to tell Sherlock; instead, he runs his plan by John to see what John thinks, and he also taps John to execute it.  I think John is solidly an N, and that means that he probably has a gut level understanding of Sherlock and was also able to take on cues in "real time" about how Sherlock was responding to the lie and tailor it accordingly.  I don't think Mycroft trusted himself to do that.

 

As for your latter point, I do agree that Mycroft might tailor his behavior to his audience.  In fact, I'd expect that.  But I do think there was a sense in that scene that Mycroft didn't think he could argue for Sherlock to escape the rules; the rules are hard and fast, and he has to work with them, not around them.  Had he been more P (more situational in outlook,), he might have taken the moment after he delivers that very poignant speech about how we will always need a Sherlock Holmes, and use it to argue for Sherlock's release or assignment to a less dangerous exile.  Lady Smallwood even gave him the opening by saying "hardly merciful," and Mycroft says "my brother is a murderer."  Mycroft negated the one opening he had to say that killing a man who threatened the security of the Western world deserved some bending of the rules.

 

Of course, I'm prepared to be proven wrong if Mycroft is behind the Moriarty gif!  

 

ETA:  Missed one of your questions.  In my experience, many workplaces use MBTI alone or in combo with DISC.  MBTI is also used in college career counseling, which is a situation in which you may ask the student to respond to questions "as if you were at work," because you want to see where they will fit in an employment situation, not a personal one.  

[Shadow Dweller]

 

Oh, I like you, Shadow!  You're making me think this morning.

I think trying to make a call between ISTJ and INTJ for Mycroft is an example of what I was saying about it being hard to "type" someone based on their behavior.  Now, with fiction, we are lucky because might get to see the characters in various different situations and make a call based on a more well-rounded perspective.  

 

I still would put Mycroft as an ISTJ, although I would accept an argument that he's close to the line or is adept at using intuition when needed.  My impression of him as a sensor is based on a couple of incidents:  First, the way he handled the entire "Bond Air/Coventry" project in SiB.  This is a man who is adept at assembling parts of a project and making decisions based on the facts of the situation rather than his gut feeling about whether the project is "ready."  

 

Also in SiB, I think the meeting with John about what to tell Sherlock about Irene is an S moment.  He doesn't trust his intuition about what to tell Sherlock; instead, he runs his plan by John to see what John thinks, and he also taps John to execute it.  I think John is solidly an N, and that means that he probably has a gut level understanding of Sherlock and was also able to take on cues in "real time" about how Sherlock was responding to the lie and tailor it accordingly.  I don't think Mycroft trusted himself to do that.

 

As for your latter point, I do agree that Mycroft might tailor his behavior to his audience.  In fact, I'd expect that.  But I do think there was a sense in that scene that Mycroft didn't think he could argue for Sherlock to escape the rules; the rules are hard and fast, and he has to work with them, not around them.  Had he been more P (more situational in outlook,), he might have taken the moment after he delivers that very poignant speech about how we will always need a Sherlock Holmes, and use it to argue for Sherlock's release or assignment to a less dangerous exile.  Lady Smallwood even gave him the opening by saying "hardly merciful," and Mycroft says "my brother is a murderer."  Mycroft negated the one opening he had to say that killing a man who threatened the security of the Western world deserved some bending of the rules.

 

Of course, I'm prepared to be proven wrong if Mycroft is behind the Moriarty gif!  

 

ETA:  Missed one of your questions.  In my experience, many workplaces use MBTI alone or in combo with DISC.  MBTI is also used in college career counseling, which is a situation in which you may ask the student to respond to questions "as if you were at work," because you want to see where they will fit in an employment situation, not a personal one.  

 

 

Happy to entertain *bow theatrically*  :lol:

 

 

>> Also in SiB, I think the meeting with John about what to tell Sherlock about Irene is an S moment.  He doesn't trust his intuition about what to tell Sherlock; instead, he runs his plan by John to see what John thinks, and he also taps John to execute it.  I think John is solidly an N, and that means that he probably has a gut level understanding of Sherlock and was also able to take on cues in "real time" about how Sherlock was responding to the lie and tailor it accordingly.  I don't think Mycroft trusted himself to do that.

 

:o I thought that that was some sort of test for John to determine his acting ability (and later used to decide whether to recruit him in Sherlock's disappearance in Reichenbach or to leave him outside).

 

 

Make the rules works for you, Mycroft! (said a naughty girl wearing horned headband and carrying pitchfork)  :P

 

 

"We always need a Sherlock Holmes," might point to the real entity or a concept of freelance problem-solver who is not so much tied with legalities like those in the government's official payroll. 

 

 

MBTI, DISC, The Big Five.... Arcadia had opened a can of worms!

 

We should play RP together sometime, then we can put those things into practice! 

[sittything]

I think the thing to keep in mind is that this is all on an S-N spectrum, so while Mycroft will have some N traits, where do the bulk of his traits lie?  

 

This is the Myers Briggs page where it breaks down S vs. N:

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/sensing-or-intuition.htm

 

My personal take on Mycroft is that dude is the embodiment of pragmatic.   I don't think he's going to waste his time on abstract theories if they're not directly serving some utilitarian purpose.  I also don't think he solves problems based on impressions or loose ideas, and jumping around mentally.  While we're never privy to the internal workings of Mycroft's mind, I imagine it to be very buttoned up, much like his exterior dress and personality.  I imagine his mind working in a very methodical manner, focusing on concrete facts and figures.  The fact that he appears in Sherlock's mind palace as the voice of reason and focus leads me to believe that this is how Sherlock sees Mycroft, and surely he knows him better than most anyone.   The one N trait you could probably give him is that, like Sherlock, I think he is very adept at imagining and focusing on future contingencies/possibilities, but I think he arrives at those from a very methodical, fact-based place.

[Shadow Dweller]

I think the thing to keep in mind is that this is all on an S-N spectrum, so while Mycroft will have some N traits, where do the bulk of his traits lie?  

 

This is the Myers Briggs page where it breaks down S vs. N:

http://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti-personality-type/mbti-basics/sensing-or-intuition.htm

 

My personal take on Mycroft is that dude is the embodiment of pragmatic.   I don't think he's going to waste his time on abstract theories if they're not directly serving some utilitarian purpose.  I also don't think he solves problems based on impressions or loose ideas, and jumping around mentally.  While we're never privy to the internal workings of Mycroft's mind, I imagine it to be very buttoned up, much like his exterior dress and personality.  I imagine his mind working in a very methodical manner, focusing on concrete facts and figures.  The fact that he appears in Sherlock's mind palace as the voice of reason and focus leads me to believe that this is how Sherlock sees Mycroft, and surely he knows him better than most anyone.   The one N trait you could probably give him is that, like Sherlock, I think he is very adept at imagining and focusing on future contingencies/possibilities, but I think he arrives at those from a very methodical, fact-based place.

 

The three types most often attributed to Mycroft on the web are ISTJ, INTJ, INTP. On behalf of Ns, I will become the devil's advocate *grins*

 

Default mode intuition does not means not pragmatic (INTJ was called the most pragmatic and independent of all types). MBTI categorized those who more likely to entertain abstract theory for the sake of it as Perceiver. 

 

Intuition as a form of inner-working is not like pulling things out of aether (or gut-feeling), it means a process of connecting floating data to form a coherent thought. The difference with the so called sensing is, intuition-user process the whole thing very fast the users might not realize the whole steps taken (but if they take time to backtrack, it is guaranteed that the process is non-linear but there are connections between elements in the equation). Sensing-user tends to use linear thinking, one by one (anyone care to argue this one?).

 

People from different temperament types often came to same conclusion but through different lines of thinking (most noticeably between feeler and thinker). 

 

Gieves and Hawkes...   Power suit. It is harder to get people to respect you if you are dressed and acted slovenly, a unnecessary hindrance when you have to make things happen and time counts. 

[sittything]

Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that N's can't be pragmatic.  I put more emphasis on my unfounded belief that Mycroft is a very methodical thinker, than on the pragmatism, in categorizing him as an S.  But the MBTI page I posted does mention pragmatism as an "S" quality.  I guess I brought up the pragmatism in relation to his not wasting time on abstract theories just for the sake of thinking about abstract theories.   And I interpreted that bit from this statement on the site:  "I like to work with symbols or abstract theories, even if I don't know how I will use them."  My impression of Mycroft is that he's not going to waste time working on theories without some concrete idea of what it is for and how it can be applied, or how it is useful to him.   I guess I'm not following though what you see in Mycroft that makes you think he's an N?  Or is that what you are saying?  Looking at the list of N characteristics from MBTI:

 

The following statements generally apply to me:

• I remember events by what I read "between the lines" about their meaning.  - I can't even begin to guess how he remembers things.
• I solve problems by leaping between different ideas and possibilities.  - Again, based on nothing but my own impression b/c I'm not privy to his through processes, I assume Mycroft is methodical.  So really this one is all open to interpretation.
• I am interested in doing things that are new and different. - I have no idea on this one.  Does he care one way or the other?
• I like to see the big picture, then to find out the facts. - I can't imagine Mycroft ever putting big picture ahead of facts, but maybe he does?
• I trust impressions, symbols, and metaphors more than what I actually experienced. - In my mind this is the most anti-Mycroft item of them all.  I can't imagine Mycroft going off anything other than cold, hard facts.
• Sometimes I think so much about new possibilities that I never look at how to make them a reality. - To me this would go against the pragmatism that I assume Mycroft has.

I find it very difficult to decipher and defend any take on a character's personality without some insight into their mind.  We've had the most insight into Sherlock's mind of any of the characters, and even he would be difficult to categorize for me, I think.  Plus there is the whole spectrum thing.  Like I'm an N, yet I LOVE facts and I'm also very detail oriented.  For years I didn't understand how I could be those things and also an N, but I remember facts only in the context of the larger picture.  If I can't find where fact or detail fits into the larger picture, then I don't retain it.  I also have a very unmethodical method of thinking.  My brain jumps all over the place to the point that people have a hard time following me when I explain how I got from point A to point B.

[Shadow Dweller]

Truthfully, I did not care whether Mycroft is a sensor or intuitor. My view on him is, how he could be useful. I can argue on the side of S if so inclined but so far there are plenty of proponent there so.... Forgive me for letting mischievous side ran free? ^^ 

 

For intuitor to be able to deduce instantly like Sherlock and Mycroft, they have to possess very developed S and trained since it is not natural for them to catch and retain all details except correlated with their view of the event like you said. Mycroft is a mysterious figure, he is very much open for any kind of interpretation. *shrugs* I think the Holmes brothers' skill of deduction is homage to the original ACD version ;)

[sittything]

Oh, lol.  I thought you were arguing for N and was all eh?  lol